Did God know Eve would eat from the tree of good and evil??

[winner08]

No.

Look at it another way. If God wanted, he could make sure man could not disobey, by creating man without free will and a rational, reasoning nature — but then man would not be a human being ...

Thomas

Are you saying that should have created with or with out free will??

 

[winner08]

Namaste Darren,

What Thomas is getting at here is the nature of your original post. You had a question, you asked for our answers, and all the time you had your own answer.

We are fellow compatriots, seeking, discussing learning from each other. The relationships developed are based on trust, trust that you won't set us up for a fall. There are a couple of easy ways to pose your ideas. A. say what you think, and ask what we think of it (hint if you don't want answers or opposing viewpoints, there is no need to post, write a book, build a website or find your own pulpit). Or B. posit your original post just as it is, but add ~ I've got a couple ideas that I'd like to present, but I'd like to hear your viewpoints so my understandings don't taint your responses.

Of course you don't have to use the above methods or any sort of decorum, but being upfront goes a long way 'round these parts. Our words actions and methods help define us to others, you've just added to your definition.

Thanks I understand.

 

[winner08]

There was no tree of "Good and Evil". But there is the tree of Knowledge, and the tree of Life. Two seperate trees. The serpent stated that the tree of knowledge would provide just that, knowledge, (including the knowledge of good and evil).

There was also the little part of being like God themselves, once they ate of it.

And Juan makes an interesting point elsewhere about what exactly it was the Eve gave into. The "fruit" may have had nothing to do with a tree at all...

Most likely a "metaphor" for something far liscidious...

Yes Quahom1 I see now How did I miss that one??

Thanks
Darren

 

[dailogue is the best]

Did God know Eve would disobey HIM and eat from the tree of good and evil? and if not why would God put the tree of good and evil right smack in the middle of the garden??

Darren

Of course, He knew. How come that He didnt know? God knows of every single leave which falls down from any tree in the world. He knows the thoughts of everyone of us, and He knows what we are going to do from here untill our deaths.

What a lot of people miss, and I told you that Darren in a previous post, that Adam and Eve's experience in Paradise was just God's training of them to their responsibiltity in earth. God had a plan from the very beginning that man is going to rule the earth.

Adam and Eve's experience in Pradise was just a period of training. It is like when we are about to begin new work. We usually undertake a period of training wherien we know about how works go on. It is untill we become fully trained, and know of the work's details that we start working. Any mistakes we make during the training arent counted/ judged (hence it doesnt reguire any punishment) because it is just training/ learning period.

The same with Adam and Eve. God was praparing man to be His vicegerent on earth. Through Adam's and Eve' experience in Pardise, God taught us that His words are always true and it is what we should always follow, that we would be always tested in our love to God (the tree stands as a symbol of a test which we daily face in life: would you be stick to your God's teachings/love or not?), that it is Satan that we should always take as an enemy, and that if we follow His Words, then we are always in paradise,esp internal one, and that if we disobey Him, then we would be in Hell, esp internal one.

 

[dailogue is the best]

did or did not God make man spiritually weak.

Yes, God created man spiritually weak. But God endowed man with mind and heart through which they can differentiate between the right and the wrong.

Why is`man spiritually weak? Because he is created from dust, and hence he/ she is always attracted to earthly pleasures.

Can a man advance spiritually? Of course, he/she can and to a very higher degree. How can he/ she? Dont forget that WE ALL have within ourselves that GOD'S BREATH. IT IS A VERY HOLY BREATH. The one who resists his/ her earthly deisres and whims, and follow God's teachings would be close to God more than angels. Why? because angels have no free will, and they do everything they are asked to do. But, man has free will, and he/ she is subject to Satan's inspirations, and to hard tests and trials, and he/ she overcomes all these out of love to God. Man then would be of a very higher status to God.

for the big question: does God have a plan for man?

Of course, He has. Anything God does, He does it for a purpose. And I think I answered this question in the previous post.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Darren —

Are you saying that should have created with or with out free will??

Oh with, definitely ... 'free will' or 'self-determination' is what defines 'human' in my book. Animals have and make choices, but they don't engage in any discursive or intellectual discussion about why they make the choices they make ...

But here's the thing:

If God intended Eve to disobey Him, you're saying she had no choice in the affair, then we don't have free will, we just think we have, and that God is not good, in fact such a god is a deceiver, is bad, vindictive and cruel, is not a 'god' by any measure of philosophy, theology or metaphysics, in fact, is a crap god all round.

Think about it: Is a parent justified in tricking their kids into being naughty, so that they can beat them, just so they can cuddle them afterwards, to show them just what a loving parent they are?

Not in my book — such a parent isn't worthy of a child — but then anyone who willingly inflicts pain on another, in a non-consentual situation (sheesh, you have to be so careful these days!), especially a child, for their own gratification — really tests my Christian determination to turn the other cheek ... I get very 'Old Testament' then ... any eye for an eye, and all that...

Thomas

 

[mee]

When God created Adam, did he know that Adam would sin? ​

Here is what God set before Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth." "And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.’" (Gen. 1:28; 2:16, 17) ​

Would you encourage your children to undertake a project with a marvelous future, knowing from the start that it was doomed to failure? ​

Would you warn them of harm, while knowing that you had planned everything so that they were sure to come to grief? ​

Is it reasonable, then, to attribute such to God? ​

Matt. 7:11: "If you, although being wicked [or, "bad as you are," NE], know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?" ​

If God foreordained and foreknew Adam’s sin and all that would result from this, it would mean that by creating Adam, God deliberately set in motion all the wickedness committed in human history. ​

He would be the Source of all the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. ​

But the Bible clearly says: "You are not a God taking delight in wickedness." (Ps. 5:4) ​

"Anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates." (Ps. 11:5) ​

"God . . . cannot lie." (Titus 1:2) ​

"From oppression and from violence he [the One designated by God as Messianic King] ​

will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes." (Ps. 72:14) ​

"God is love." (1 John 4:8) "He is a lover of righteousness and justice."Ps. 33:5.​

 

[winner08]

Namaste Darren,

What Thomas is getting at here is the nature of your original post. You had a question, you asked for our answers, and all the time you had your own answer.

We are fellow compatriots, seeking, discussing learning from each other. The relationships developed are based on trust, trust that you won't set us up for a fall. There are a couple of easy ways to pose your ideas. A. say what you think, and ask what we think of it (hint if you don't want answers or opposing viewpoints, there is no need to post, write a book, build a website or find your own pulpit). Or B. posit your original post just as it is, but add ~ I've got a couple ideas that I'd like to present, but I'd like to hear your viewpoints so my understandings don't taint your responses.

Of course you don't have to use the above methods or any sort of decorum, but being upfront goes a long way 'round these parts. Our words actions and methods help define us to others, you've just added to your definition.

I came back to this, and Iam just wondering are you saying that just because I have my own ansewers to my own questions I shouldn't ask what yall think? I hope that is not the case. Most people have their own ansewers or and their own beliefs but it is still is ok to ask the questions and see what others think. I ask yall a question and yall tell me what yall think? what's wrong with that? BTW I am not setting up nobody I honestly want to know what yall think. and I should't have to waste my time defending myself for asking questions just because I know what I think the ansewers are!!!



Darren

 

[winner08]

Hi Darren —


Oh with, definitely ... 'free will' or 'self-determination' is what defines 'human' in my book. Animals have and make choices, but they don't engage in any discursive or intellectual discussion about why they make the choices they make ...

But here's the thing:

If God intended Eve to disobey Him, you're saying she had no choice in the affair, then we don't have free will, we just think we have, and that God is not good, in fact such a god is a deceiver, is bad, vindictive and cruel, is not a 'god' by any measure of philosophy, theology or metaphysics, in fact, is a crap god all round.

Think about it: Is a parent justified in tricking their kids into being naughty, so that they can beat them, just so they can cuddle them afterwards, to show them just what a loving parent they are?

Not in my book — such a parent isn't worthy of a child — but then anyone who willingly inflicts pain on another, in a non-consentual situation (sheesh, you have to be so careful these days!), especially a child, for their own gratification — really tests my Christian determination to turn the other cheek ... I get very 'Old Testament' then ... any eye for an eye, and all that...

Thomas

why does have to be bad just because He uses CHOOSES to opperate the way He does? Who are we to question Him.

 

[seattlegal]

why does have to be bad just because He uses CHOOSES to opperate the way He does? Who are we to question Him.

We are God's children. Children always ask questions.
Jesus said:

Matthew 7
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.​

 

[Thomas]

why does have to be bad just because He uses CHOOSES to opperate the way He does? Who are we to question Him.

Well seems to me there's your answer.

If we shouldn't question, then why free will? And if we don't have free will, we wouldn't question would we? We'd never say 'yeah, but' or 'what if' ... and struggle with our conscience ... we'd just be as w are without a second though ... and then this whole topic is void, isn't it?

If Eve did what she did because she could not do anything else, then there's no right and wrong, good and evil, because to think like that requires an exercise of conscience, and choice ... in fact the whole Bible's a complete waste of paper, because the basic premise is wrong.

I'm left with man who cannot change, and a God who punishes man for not being different to what God intended him to be.

In fact, I'm left with the argument that the world is often a crappy place to be, and if there is no God, makes no difference, so make the best of it.

+++

When I argue with my kids, and they say, "Ah yes, but you brought us up to be independent ... " then I start to smile. Independent doesn't mean exempt from the house rules, any more than exempt from the law of gravity.

Now we've had our moments ... but as I tell everyone, I bought my kids a suitcase each for their 18th birthday, and not one of 'em's got the point yet ...

Thomas

 

[winner08]

Well seems to me there's your answer.

If we shouldn't question, then why free will? And if we don't have free will, we wouldn't question would we? We'd never say 'yeah, but' or 'what if' ... and struggle with our conscience ... we'd just be as w are without a second though ... and then this whole topic is void, isn't it?

If Eve did what she did because she could not do anything else, then there's no right and wrong, good and evil, because to think like that requires an exercise of conscience, and choice ... in fact the whole Bible's a complete waste of paper, because the basic premise is wrong.

I'm left with man who cannot change, and a God who punishes man for not being different to what God intended him to be.

In fact, I'm left with the argument that the world is often a crappy place to be, and if there is no God, makes no difference, so make the best of it.

+++

When I argue with my kids, and they say, "Ah yes, but you brought us up to be independent ... " then I start to smile. Independent doesn't mean exempt from the house rules, any more than exempt from the law of gravity.

Now we've had our moments ... but as I tell everyone, I bought my kids a suitcase each for their 18th birthday, and not one of 'em's got the point yet ...

Thomas

Thomas I've said this many times we do have UNcaused free will or UNcaused choice. Every time YOU choose somithing it is because sopmething or someone influenced you to choose that way. It could even be unseen causes.
But causes nevertheless. Think about evey decision you made today and see if there was something or someone that caused you to make those decesions. Once again I will said this we do make our owm decisions, but something or someone seen or unseen causes us to choose the way that we do. CAN U SEE IT??