Show yourself, destory our fears, release your mask!

17th Angel

לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
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Have you seen the little piggies crawling in the d
Have they or haven't they seen god?

Please note this isn't me attempting to say "HAH! The bible contradicts itself nah nah nah..." and so on, I just really want to see peoples thoughts see if there is symbolism? If this leads to something else? You know just share your faith and thought. I'll place three scriptures that suport it and three which do not... to provoke thought. (Note: In the Abrahamic all views wanted!) :) (Would also be interesting to see the hebrew words that were translated for "face to face".)


No?
Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Exodus 33:23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."

John 1:18 No man has ever seen god.

Yes?
Numbers 12:8 With him I speak face to face

Numbers 14:14 and that you, O YHWH, have been seen face to face

Deuteronomy 5:4 YHWH spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.
 
Have they or haven't they seen god?

Please note this isn't me attempting to say "HAH! The bible contradicts itself nah nah nah..." and so on, I just really want to see peoples thoughts see if there is symbolism? If this leads to something else? You know just share your faith and thought. I'll place three scriptures that suport it and three which do not... to provoke thought. (Note: In the Abrahamic all views wanted!) :) (Would also be interesting to see the hebrew words that were translated for "face to face".)
Me, I have no issues with the contradictions or seemingly contradictions. I'll have to take some time with the exact passages...but there is something else that caught my attention.

Show yourself, destory our fears, release your mask!

Destory our fears. That is one powerful typo. Our fears are stories we create, it is time to destory our fears and this to me has tons to do with your contemplation.
 
You go back a few verses in Exodus 33, you find this:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." - Exodus 33:11

Which seems to contradict the verses you quote later in this chapter, does it not? But I highlighted the phrase 'as a man speaketh unto his friend' because I think this is key to understanding the colloquialism implied here. We're not talking in a literal face to face, but a relationally driven encounter between God and Moses. God has found grace in the sight of Moses.

However, it seems that Moses in vs 18 wanted to go deeper than that. He wanted God to show Himself in a literal manifestation. But because of the Holiness of God, any real face to face encounter would be physically detrimental due to the overpowering Glory of God.

Let me pause here and say that I don't think that God literally has a 'face' persay, (unless God here is using a manifestation of a person to show Himself. I as a Christian would say such appearances suggest a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ, but that's another issue that I don't wish to get into here in the Abrahamic Forum). For Moses to behold God in all His Glory would consume him, so God here is only cracking the door just a bit, so to speak, so that Moses sees this in an indirect manner (back parts).

I find Numbers 12:8 one interesting, because in some versions say 'mouth to mouth' instead of 'face to face', which make more sense in a way, for the passage in context is talking about plain understanding. So I see no contradiction here. Evidently another colloquialism.
 
Dondi thanks again brother for a very interesting informative post!:D

Wil , look forward to seeing your reply :D The title caught your attention? Hehe.. It's a line of a song, it was on at the time I made the topic so I thought I'd take that line :p
 
I would like to go back further into Genesis chapter 18 with Abraham and God...

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre,* as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." They said, "Do as you have said." 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes." 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 9 Then they said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?" So he said, "Here, in the tent." 10 And He said, "I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son." (Sarah was listening in the tent door which was behind him.) 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing. 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, "After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?" 13 And the Lord said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?' 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son." 15 But Sarah denied it, saying, "I did not laugh," for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh!" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. 17 And the Lord said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him." 20 And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know." 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 23 And Abraham came near and said, "Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" 26 So the Lord said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes." 27 Then Abraham answered and said, "Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?" So He said, "If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it." 29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, "Suppose there should be forty found there?" So He said, "I will not do it for the sake of forty." 30 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?" So He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there." 31 And he said, "Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?" So He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty." 32 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of ten." 33 So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place. [/FONT]

But Ive said it before.. I believe that this was an OT manifestation of Jesus because of what He said in the NT. I believe anytime in the OT anyone walks and talks with the Lord they are walking and talking with Him and they knew who He was which is what saved them at the cross. :)
 
John 14:9 NIV •
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
 
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