The Last Shall Be First...

Hi Dialogue, Thank you for your reply. I was not really referring to the idea that God is the first and last, the alpha and omega, but that people who are now last/least will have the most, and those who now have the most will end up with the least:

20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.
 
Luna, sorry for misunderstanding. You may find the following scripures relevant:

22. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss:
23. On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things):
24. Thou wilt recognise in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss.
25. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed:
26. The seal thereof will be Musk: And for this let those aspire, who have aspirations:
27. With it will be (given) a mixture of Tasnim:
28. A spring, from (the waters) whereof drink those Nearest to Allah.
29. Those in sin used to laugh at those who believed,
30. And whenever they passed by them, used to wink at each other (in mockery);
31. And when they returned to their own people, they would return jesting;
32. And whenever they saw them, they would say, "Behold! These are the people truly astray!"
33. But they had not been sent as keepers over them!
34. But on this Day the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers:
35. On Thrones (of Dignity) they will command (a sight) (of all things).
36. Will not the Unbelievers have been paid back for what they did? (chapter 83)

PS: You may find a lot of relevant scriptures in the Holy Quran, and in the Prophet Muhamed's (pbuh) sayings.
 
dailogue is the best said:
Luna, sorry for misunderstanding. You may find the following scripures relevant:

22. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss:
23. On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things):
24. Thou wilt recognise in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss.
25. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed:
26. The seal thereof will be Musk: And for this let those aspire, who have aspirations:
27. With it will be (given) a mixture of Tasnim:
28. A spring, from (the waters) whereof drink those Nearest to Allah.
29. Those in sin used to laugh at those who believed,
30. And whenever they passed by them, used to wink at each other (in mockery);
31. And when they returned to their own people, they would return jesting;
32. And whenever they saw them, they would say, "Behold! These are the people truly astray!"
33. But they had not been sent as keepers over them!
34. But on this Day the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers:
35. On Thrones (of Dignity) they will command (a sight) (of all things).
36. Will not the Unbelievers have been paid back for what they did? (chapter 83)

PS: You may find a lot of relevant scriptures in the Holy Quran, and in the Prophet Muhamed's (pbuh) sayings.
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Once again, thank you for your reply. However, this is still not the same idea as I am referring to with the Luke passage. Jesus says many times that the last will be first and the first last, meaning (I believe) the literal poor and downtrodden, those with no power in society. It is an issue of reversal of fortunes, not reward for believers and punishment for non-believers or the wicked.

Even if you are not 'wicked,' but simply if right now you 'have much,' there will come a time when you will not because you 'have already received your reward.'

Is there a similar teaching in Islam?
 
lunamoth said:
Jesus says many times that the last will be first and the first last, meaning (I believe) the literal poor and downtrodden, those with no power in society. It is an issue of reversal of fortunes, not reward for believers and punishment for non-believers or the wicked.

Even if you are not 'wicked,' but simply if right now you 'have much,' there will come a time when you will not because you 'have already received your reward.'
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Do you think that is what it is?

I think it has less to do with wealth than getting caught up in the material world. If you have been ego building, thinking this is all there is, focusing on earthly success, power...not that you've got your reward but you were chasing the wrong reward.

I also don't think it is the poor, many poor maybe doing the above. But those that have dedicated a life to service, maybe they still gained much by their efforts but that was not their focus. Also no requirement of giving up material wealth, just having given up the greed factor, where giving and serving is more important...those traits that are not common in our societies...
 
I think it does has to do with wealth and power, and social justice, not just being detached from material things or subduing your ego. God knows we are material and need material things to live. Much misery comes from our inability to share resources and wealth.

Following Christ is about giving comfort to the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable, changing the paradigm in a most radical way.
 
Uhm... With the Aztec's you had Teteo Inan.... Or known as Coatlicue.... Which was the mother of all gods... Gave birth to the sun, stars, moon other gods and basically everything else, also goverened death and re-birth...... So I guess that could be seen as last(death/the end) and first(life/beginning)

If that isn't where we are going with this and cause it is late I've read into this wrong then ignore me lol....
 
Alex P said:
Uhm... With the Aztec's you had Teteo Inan.... Or known as Coatlicue.... Which was the mother of all gods... Gave birth to the sun, stars, moon other gods and basically everything else, also goverened death and re-birth...... So I guess that could be seen as last(death/the end) and first(life/beginning)

If that isn't where we are going with this and cause it is late I've read into this wrong then ignore me lol....
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Thank you for the post Alex. That is similar to DiB's first post and the idea of God being alpha and omega. But yeah, I was thinking of a different direction. I'll try to find more bible quotes to illustrate, but the beatitudes are the best example of what I mean.
 
I am very sorry I have read the further replies... :( I will re think it over lol... Sorry once again.

--quick edit--

So we are talking like, blessed are the meek? For they shall have the world right? Those that are meek desire, peace... I think we can see from many other religions that the meek are rewarded.. No wait I still feel like I am not going where this is meant to be..... Nevermind will sleep on it... getting late.. lol.
 
I think there is a kind of reversal idea in the Baha'i Writings..so I consulted Ocean for certain key words like "meek"..

Here's aresult:

They are animalistic; the Manifestations make them human. They are savage and cruel; the Manifestations lead them into kingdoms of light and love. They are unjust; the Manifestations cause them to become just. Man is selfish; they sever him from self and desire. Man is haughty; they make him meek, humble and friendly. He is earthly; they make him heavenly. Men are material; the Manifestations transform them into semblance divine.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 110)

Another:

If thou seekest eternal glory, let thyself be humble and meek in the presence of the beloved of God; make thyself the servant of all, and serve all alike. The service of the friends belongs to God, not to them. 6 Strive to become a source of harmony, spirituality and joyfulness to the hearts of the friends and the maid-servants of the Merciful. This is a cause of great satisfaction to Abdul-Baha.***

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 61)

Therefore, I beseech God that He may bestow upon thee a meek and submissive heart and that He may confirm thee in the service of the divine garden and assist thee to emulate the actions and deeds of the godly ones.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 479)

Adib Taherzadeh quotes a beautitude and draws a parallel to a Qur'anic verse:


"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
And in the Qur'án 28:5:

"We wished to favour those who were weak in the land and make them leaders and heirs."

(Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, p. 182)


Who could doubt that when God's victory is complete, when
harmony between His will and man's has been attained, when the
meek have inherited the earth and the righteous are enthroned,
man's intellectual and moral progress will go forward more
rapidly than ever and will continue indefinitely?

(George Townshend, The Heart of the Gospel, p. 141)

- Art
 
Another example:

Luke said:
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
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Alex P said:
So we are talking like, blessed are the meek? For they shall have the world right?
Click to expand...

Yes, that is what I am getting at, but not just the meek, but also the poor, the weak, the outcast.

And that those who are currently wealthy and in power (and presumably do nothing to help those who are powerless) will 'be last.'

What does it mean to 'be first' or 'be last?' in the context of Luke's beatitudes?
 
arthra said:
I think there is a kind of reversal idea in the Baha'i Writings..so I consulted Ocean for certain key words like "meek"..

Here's aresult:

They are animalistic; the Manifestations make them human. They are savage and cruel; the Manifestations lead them into kingdoms of light and love. They are unjust; the Manifestations cause them to become just. Man is selfish; they sever him from self and desire. Man is haughty; they make him meek, humble and friendly. He is earthly; they make him heavenly. Men are material; the Manifestations transform them into semblance divine.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 110)

Another:

If thou seekest eternal glory, let thyself be humble and meek in the presence of the beloved of God; make thyself the servant of all, and serve all alike. The service of the friends belongs to God, not to them. 6 Strive to become a source of harmony, spirituality and joyfulness to the hearts of the friends and the maid-servants of the Merciful. This is a cause of great satisfaction to Abdul-Baha.***

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 61)

Therefore, I beseech God that He may bestow upon thee a meek and submissive heart and that He may confirm thee in the service of the divine garden and assist thee to emulate the actions and deeds of the godly ones.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 479)

Adib Taherzadeh quotes a beautitude and draws a parallel to a Qur'anic verse:


"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
And in the Qur'án 28:5:

"We wished to favour those who were weak in the land and make them leaders and heirs."

(Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, p. 182)


Who could doubt that when God's victory is complete, when
harmony between His will and man's has been attained, when the
meek have inherited the earth and the righteous are enthroned,
man's intellectual and moral progress will go forward more
rapidly than ever and will continue indefinitely?

(George Townshend, The Heart of the Gospel, p. 141)

- Art
Click to expand...


Yes, those are in line with what I was getting at. Although of course that last one is not from scripture.
 
'First and the last' is probably a reference to all of those firstborn sons of Abraham whose blessing was taken away and given to their twin: Cain & Abel, Jacob & Esau, Zerah & Perez, etc. In those cases, the secondborn became the first and the first became 'Last'. Jesus is explaining that light has come for the sinner, those unclean. He lifts up the head of low caste people and lowers the high caste people. This goes along with Jesus message of repentence for cleansing and also meshes with what Jesus says in Mathew 4 about the poor in spirit. When he says 'the hungry' he often means those hungry for righteousness, and Jesus calls them meek, pure in heart, those who mourn, and peacemakers. When he says 'Poor' he likely refers to those secondborn, second-class citizens that are thought to be sinners by all the 'Good' people. The section of verses in question is introduced by a question (in 5:30) about why Jesus was paying attention to sinners at all.

Luke 5:30-31 ...murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.


Matthew 4:25
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
 
Dream said:
'First and the last' is probably a reference to all of those firstborn sons of Abraham whose blessing was taken away and given to their twin: Cain & Abel, Jacob & Esau, Zerah & Perez, etc. In those cases, the secondborn became the first and the first became 'Last'.
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Good catch. Yes, there is a long line of examples from the OT and in such parables as the Prodigal Son, the workers of the vinyard who were hired in the last hour, but rec'd full wages, etc..

Jesus is explaining that light has come for the sinner, those unclean. He lifts up the head of low caste people and lowers the high caste people. This goes along with Jesus message of repentence for cleansing and also meshes with what Jesus says in Mathew 4 about the poor in spirit. When he says 'the hungry' he often means those hungry for righteousness, and Jesus calls them meek, pure in heart, those who mourn, and peacemakers. When he says 'Poor' he likely refers to those secondborn, second-class citizens that are thought to be sinners by all the 'Good' people. The section of verses in question is introduced by a question (in 5:30) about why Jesus was paying attention to sinners at all.

Luke 5:30-31 ...murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.


Matthew 4:25
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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I agree with all of that, but it is interesting that so far there has been so little support for the idea that Jesus also meant the materially poor as among the last/least, and the materially rich as the first.

Matthew said:
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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Lunamoth said:
I agree with all of that, but it is interesting that so far there has been so little support for the idea that Jesus also meant the materially poor as among the last/least, and the materially rich as the first.
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Yeah, I don't know, but perhaps greed is the issue and not wealth. Boaz was both rich and generous as was Naboth's wife Abigail and 'The Centurion'.
 
Hi,

Your answer is yes, whoever is first will be last, and whoever is last will be first, trust me heaven and earth will end but this statement will be fulfilled. One day all things will become even in front of the owner of the wineyard, because that owner loves all of his workers.

More than a religion basic-idea, you can consider this as truth. If you're revolving around this question because you consider it relevant, and can suddenly feel the affliction of your neighbor and regard it as yours, then rejoice because a kingdom with no end has entered in you and you will be that light that shines on it having no end.

That very day, prepare your best wine, and invite your best friends, because life has entered in your house, and there will be much to rejoice about.
 
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