Hell: Another man make doctrine.

winner08

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Has anybody notice that in the O.T. of the Bible there is hardly a mention if any of the word hell, being a place where God will condem billions of His creation to be torture with fire for all eternity, forever and ever??

Why is it really isn't untill the N.T. of the Bible that we start hearing about hell??

Darren
 
Darren,

Hell is a very complicated topic. Some people say that the only Hell is the Hell we create for ourselves here on Earth. Although I respect such an idea, I really believe there is a Hell.

Let's go through the long list of issues dealing with Hell, shall we?

1. Eternal Hell

The Bible teaches that Hell is eternal.

“Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’” (Matthew 25:41)

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

However, Hell is not eternal. First, there is no word for “eternal” in Hebrew.

“The word ‘eternity,’ by which Christian theologians interpret the term ‘for ever and ever,’ does not exist in the Hebrew tongue — either as a word or meaning. Oulam, says Le Clerc, only imports a time when beginning or end is not known. It does not mean ‘infinite duration,’ and the word for ever in the Old Testament, only signifies a ‘long time.’” (H.P. Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, page 336 note)

“... ‘eternal damnation’ ... [is not] eternal, but only, as in the original Greek of the New Testament, ‘eonian’, that is, for the period of an eon or dispensation. (C. Jinarajadasa)

“Eternal” would have been more accurately translated in the Bible as “aeon.” I see Hell as being something that lasts for a while, but the person then leaves Hell, and moves on, to a better place.

Would you agree?
 
Darren,

Hell is a very complicated topic. Some people say that the only Hell is the Hell we create for ourselves here on Earth. Although I respect such an idea, I really believe there is a Hell.

Let's go through the long list of issues dealing with Hell, shall we?

1. Eternal Hell

The Bible teaches that Hell is eternal.

“Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’” (Matthew 25:41)

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

However, Hell is not eternal. First, there is no word for “eternal” in Hebrew.

“The word ‘eternity,’ by which Christian theologians interpret the term ‘for ever and ever,’ does not exist in the Hebrew tongue — either as a word or meaning. Oulam, says Le Clerc, only imports a time when beginning or end is not known. It does not mean ‘infinite duration,’ and the word for ever in the Old Testament, only signifies a ‘long time.’” (H.P. Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, page 336 note)

“... ‘eternal damnation’ ... [is not] eternal, but only, as in the original Greek of the New Testament, ‘eonian’, that is, for the period of an eon or dispensation. (C. Jinarajadasa)

“Eternal” would have been more accurately translated in the Bible as “aeon.” I see Hell as being something that lasts for a while, but the person then leaves Hell, and moves on, to a better place.

Would you agree?

Nick before I get into yoy questions ansewer this. Why isn't Hell a place where nonbelievers go when or after they die??

Did God warn Adam and Eve that they would go to hell if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil??

Did Moses warn his people that they would go to hell if they disobayed God?

Did Noah warn the people if they didn't change their evil ways they would go to hell?

Did God tell Cain that because he is a murderer of his own brother he would suffer forever and ever in a hell where he would burn forever and ever??

Darren
 
BTW Hell is not a very dificlut subject. Man has made it so.
 
Darren,

As I promsed you, Hell is a very complicated topic. You have raised several more issues. Let's take them one at a time.

2. Teaching Hell-dogma as a means for religious and political control

I certainly believe that a murderer or thief will spend an appropriate amount of time in Hell for what they have done (not an eternity, which makes no sense at all, and the original Bible did not teach of an eternal Hell). This makes sense to most people. However, The Bible tells us that we can go to Hell for two reasons, for doing bad things, and for choosing not to follow Jesus. Clearly, the first punishment happens. And, in my humble opinon, the second does not. Why did the writers of the Bible foister this second idea on us? The answer is simple; to force the masses to follow that religion and political government.

"Why isn't Hell a place where nonbelievers go when or after they die??'

If you are asking a serious question, I can only answer in this way: Why should I follow a religion that says Mahatma Gandhi went to Hell and Hitler went to Heaven? The answer is easy — these things did not happen. All good Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc., go to Heaven. The idea that a Hindu like Mahatma Gandhi went to Hell because he chose not to follow Jesus is preposterous.

Do you think Mahatma Gandhi went to Hell because he chose not to follow Jesus?
 
Darren,

As I promsed you, Hell is a very complicated topic. You have raised several more issues. Let's take them one at a time.

2. Teaching Hell-dogma as a means for religious and political control

I certainly believe that a murderer or thief will spend an appropriate amount of time in Hell for what they have done (not an eternity, which makes no sense at all, and the original Bible did not teach of an eternal Hell). This makes sense to most people. However, The Bible tells us that we can go to Hell for two reasons, for doing bad things, and for choosing not to follow Jesus. Clearly, the first punishment happens. And, in my humble opinon, the second does not. Why did the writers of the Bible foister this second idea on us? The answer is simple; to force the masses to follow that religion and political government.

"Why isn't Hell a place where nonbelievers go when or after they die??'

If you are asking a serious question, I can only answer in this way: Why should I follow a religion that says Mahatma Gandhi went to Hell and Hitler went to Heaven? The answer is easy — these things did not happen. All good Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc., go to Heaven. The idea that a Hindu like Mahatma Gandhi went to Hell because he chose not to follow Jesus is preposterous.

Do you think Mahatma Gandhi went to Hell because he chose not to follow Jesus?

I don't believe in hell. I don't believe there is a place where people go after they die and burn or tortured and tormented forever and ever.
 
Listen Nick I believe that we all are going to pay a price for our sins. The Bible decribes it as stripes. How many stripes we will have to pay. It is not a forever punishment as mainstream christanity teaches. God chastises to punish with correction Not just to punish for the sake of being punish. It's stupid. God puts us to test and we choose wrong we are chastise we are corrected. If people would just let understand the words in Scripture it would be simple. But Nick it is not forever. Your right.

One more thing Nick As stated why isn't or why did not God warn or all the prophets warn the people about a hell where they will burn forever and ever if they were non believers of God or died in sin? Why I will say it because there is no such thing or God would have told Adam and Eve, Moses would have told the hebrews and certianly Noah would have warn all those people they would go to hell forever if they didn't change their ways. Did God tell Abraham that all those people in sodom and Gahmorra were going to hell if they didn't straighten up NO, NO, NO!! anyways what do you think Nick
 
This is great. Knowing that God never even mention hell in the O.T. and the prophets didn't either warn the people or teach them about burning and being tortured and tormented forever and ever, we could come to the conclusion that there is no such place. Therefore how many other lies have we been taught?? I bet if we dig deeper we would find a bunch. God's word (Scripture) is truth. There's no two ways about it. God does not change, God does not lie and Scripture is the inspired word of God. If it were so God would have mention such an important place. The prophets would have taught it. Moses would have mention it. Noah would have mentioned it. Abraham would have and Adam and Eve and Cain would have been told about it. They wasn't Why because it does not exsits.
 
Darren,

Ya know, you have asked a fascinating question, one that I have never considered before. Why did God not send Adam and Eve to eternal damnation in Hell for what they did? This certainly adds a new twist, for those people who believe in the Christian/Jewish paradigm. (I am neither Christian nor Jewish.)

The answer is this: What happened was not bad but good. 'God' wanted Adam and Eve to leave the 'Garden of Eden,' to learn new aspects of being alive. Unfortunately, the story has been twisted around for political reasons, so that, as I said before, the story could be used to control the masses in political and religious ways.

I thought I would share with you what really happened. As you know, the Bible says humanity was created twice, once on Day Six, and again in the story of Adam and Eve. The Bible is correct in saying humanity was created twice. Our astral bodies were created 'on day Six,' and our physical bodies were created during the story of Adam and Eve. (The two events were separated by millions of years.)

The Bible says God got angry at Adam and Eve, and there is some truth to this idea. When human astral bodies were finally attached to physical bodies (the true meaning of the Adam and Eve story), the entire human race started having one huge, seemingly endless sex orgy. The Seven Elohim, who had created our physical bodies for us ("from a hundered pounds of clay"), were not happy. (The correct word is that they were 'dismayed.') This has come down into the present story of God cursing Adam and Eve.

So, as you can see, the story of Genesis is based in fact, but it has been changed so much down through the centuries that it has become practically unrecognizeable from what really happened.

~~

You say that Hell is not mentioned in the O.T., so there must not be a Hell. I'm sorry, but your logic is invalid. (I used to teach logic.)

You said,

"Therefore how many other lies have we been taught??"

--> Simply look for other things in the Bible that do not make sense. What other things have you seen in the Bible that do not make sense to you?
 
Darren,

Ya know, you have asked a fascinating question, one that I have never considered before. Why did God not send Adam and Eve to eternal damnation in Hell for what they did? This certainly adds a new twist, for those people who believe in the Christian/Jewish paradigm. (I am neither Christian nor Jewish.)

The answer is this: What happened was not bad but good. 'God' wanted Adam and Eve to leave the 'Garden of Eden,' to learn new aspects of being alive. Unfortunately, the story has been twisted around for political reasons, so that, as I said before, the story could be used to control the masses in political and religious ways.

I thought I would share with you what really happened. As you know, the Bible says humanity was created twice, once on Day Six, and again in the story of Adam and Eve. The Bible is correct in saying humanity was created twice. Our astral bodies were created 'on day Six,' and our physical bodies were created during the story of Adam and Eve. (The two events were separated by millions of years.)

The Bible says God got angry at Adam and Eve, and there is some truth to this idea. When human astral bodies were finally attached to physical bodies (the true meaning of the Adam and Eve story), the entire human race started having one huge, seemingly endless sex orgy. The Seven Elohim, who had created our physical bodies for us ("from a hundered pounds of clay"), were not happy. (The correct word is that they were 'dismayed.') This has come down into the present story of God cursing Adam and Eve.

So, as you can see, the story of Genesis is based in fact, but it has been changed so much down through the centuries that it has become practically unrecognizeable from what really happened.

~~

You say that Hell is not mentioned in the O.T., so there must not be a Hell. I'm sorry, but your logic is invalid. (I used to teach logic.)

You said,

"Therefore how many other lies have we been taught??"

--> Simply look for other things in the Bible that do not make sense. What other things have you seen in the Bible that do not make sense to you?

Nick I said hell is not mention in the O.T. this is not the only reason why I believe there is no place A hell where God will punish non believers and sinners. This is just a part of it. A big part but not all.

I believe that the writers have twisted the Gen account through the centuries. I believe that wverything that went down in that garden with Adam and Eve went excactly as it should have. There were no suprises. God knew just what would happen and it did happen just the way God intened to. According to man made doctrin they have it where God was thrown for a loop and was pissed at Adam and Eve so He sent them out of the garden. God didn't have a clue that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree. (Even though God put the tree smack in the mist of the garden) and very beautiful to the eyes and looked so tempting to eat. Wait! God made man weak spiritually, and full of vanity. Like He didn't know what was going to happen. So Yes man twisted the account over and over untill he made man the bad guy, and God a nitwit, a rookie with not a clue as to what was going to happen. A risk taker, well we will make man spiritually weak and full of human nature lust, envey, murderers, liers, thieves and whatever else and I will give them an adversary to tempt them to wrong and sin and disobey me then I will send them to the most horrifing place where they will be torture and torment forever and ever. Ya that's fair I''m a just God. it's stupited. NO WAY.

one more thing when you say I will share with you what really happen. No direspect but in your belief or opinion this is what happen. Just as in my beliefs this is what happen. If your right then I'm wrong. If I'm right you are wrong. So there is only one truth and I guess it depends on ones belief.

I respect your opinion. but I need more than just your say. I need proof. Proof, (in scripture). Show me how you came up with this 7 elohim created man then got mad at us for have orgies. (100LBS.) of clay???

The two events was 2 million yrs. How do you know that?? where is the proof. Give me something to hang my hat on.(Scripture please)
 
Darren,

"A hell where God will punish non believers and sinners."

--> I do not see Hell as being such a place. I see Hell as a place that is a natural condition resulting from how we have led our lives. I see the afterlife as a place of what I can only describe as a place of different types of energy vibrations. Pure actions in our physical lives set up very high rates of vibration in us. Doing terrible things in our physical lives sets up very coarse and low-level vibrations in us in the afterlife. So, it is not a case of God punishing us, it is a case of us creating our own 'Heaven' or 'Hell' in the afterlife. This is a very natural case of cause and effect, and makes a lot of sense to me.

"No direspect but in your belief or opinion this is what happen."

--> I suppose I should say, "I believe this is what happened," instead of saying, "This is what happened." I'll try to do that more in the future.

"I need proof."

--> The book that I use as my point of reference is The Secret Doctrine.

The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky

The Secret Doctrine is as authoritative to me as the Bible is to you.

"Show me how you came up with this 7 elohim created man then got mad at us for have orgies."

--> This, and the other points you address, are in The Secret Doctrine.

"(100LBS.) of clay???"

--> I see the Standard Revised Version uses the phrase "God formed man of dust from the ground" instead of "from 100 pounds of clay."

Bible.com

(I guess I was remembering words from popular music from the early 1960's.)
 
Darren,

"A hell where God will punish non believers and sinners."

--> I do not see Hell as being such a place. I see Hell as a place that is a natural condition resulting from how we have led our lives. I see the afterlife as a place of what I can only describe as a place of different types of energy vibrations. Pure actions in our physical lives set up very high rates of vibration in us. Doing terrible things in our physical lives sets up very coarse and low-level vibrations in us in the afterlife. So, it is not a case of God punishing us, it is a case of us creating our own 'Heaven' or 'Hell' in the afterlife. This is a very natural case of cause and effect, and makes a lot of sense to me.

"No direspect but in your belief or opinion this is what happen."

--> I suppose I should say, "I believe this is what happened," instead of saying, "This is what happened." I'll try to do that more in the future.

"I need proof."

--> The book that I use as my point of reference is The Secret Doctrine.

The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky

The Secret Doctrine is as authoritative to me as the Bible is to you.

"Show me how you came up with this 7 elohim created man then got mad at us for have orgies."

--> This, and the other points you address, are in The Secret Doctrine.

"(100LBS.) of clay???"

--> I see the Standard Revised Version uses the phrase "God formed man of dust from the ground" instead of "from 100 pounds of clay."

Bible.com

(I guess I was remembering words from popular music from the early 1960's.)

Nick a few questions how did you come to this? I mean come to this way of belief.
 
What do you believe the after life will consist of. Will we be physical or spirit. will we know our family member or not? will we just hang around with harps and flying around in outer space or be here on earth? What is your take on this matter??
 
Nick I beleve in no hell. As a place where God will send people to be punish forever.I do however believe in the lake of fire where the non-elect will be purged of their carnality and be reborn in the spitting image of God Himself. I believe we are the clay and God is the potter and we will be fired just as clay is to remove the impurities. So will we. How long and how painful this transformation will take and be I have no clue. I think it will be a terrifing experience. Probable painfull also. This is what I believe. Speaking for myself. But in order for us to be in God's kingdom we must frist be changed from flesh and blood to spirit. Then and only then will be in the image of God and be part of His family. You got to admit that this is better than a god sending his creation to a hell to be torture and tormented for all enterity.
 
I read a little of that site, I must say, it is not easy to understand.
Nick have you check out the web site I gave you? Bible-truth.com,
I must say it is very interesting.
 
Darren,

You asked,

"Nick a few questions how did you come to this? I mean come to this way of belief."

--> I encountered this pilosophy many years ago. I like it because it makes sense to me. I find it makes absolute, perfect, logical sense, unlike many parts of the Bible. I cannot find any flaws in this philosophy whatsoever.

"What do you believe the after life will consist of."

--> I will take a very complicated topic, and try to give a very simple answer. After death, everyone becomes conscious on the astral plane. There are different levels on the astral plane. People who did very bad things in life will become conscious on a low, terrible astral plane. (This is the Hell that all major relgions talk about.)

“Recall also the story of Tityus, the man who was tied to a rock, his liver being gnawed by vultures, and growing again as fast as it was eaten. There you have an illustration of the effect of yielding to desire: an image of the man who is always tortured by remorse for sins committed on earth.

“As perhaps a higher example of the same we can take the story of Sisyphus. You know how he was condemned always to roll a stone up a hill, and how, when he reached the top, the stone would always roll down again. That is the condition of an ambitious man after death, a man who has spent his life in making plans for selfish ends, for attaining glory or honor. In his case also death brings no change. He goes on making plans just as he did during life. He works out his plans, he executes them, as he thinks, till the point of culmination, and then he suddenly perceives that he has no longer a physical body, and that all was but a dream. Then be begins again and again, till he has learned at last that these desires are useless and that ambition must be killed. So Sisyphus goes on uselessly rolling the stone up the hill, till at last he learns not to roll it any more. To have learned that is to have conquered that desire, and he will come back in his next life without it; without the desire, but of course not without the weakness of character which made that desire possible.

“So you see that conditions that seem terrible are but the effects in the other world of a wrong life here on earth. That is nature's method of turning wrong into good. Man does suffer, but what he suffers is only the effect of his own action and nothing else; it is not punishment inflicted upon him from outside, but entirely of his own making. And that is not all. The suffering he has to bear is the only means by which his qualities can be directed in the right way for his evolution and progress in another life. This was a point much emphasized in the teaching of the mysteries.” (Charles Leadbeater, The Inner Life, pages 57-58)

Average people will become conscious on the middle levels of the astral plane, and very good people with become conscious on the highest astral plane "Seventh Heaven").

I agree with the idea that Hell is a place geographically below the surface of the Earth: “People find their own level on the astral plane, much in the same way as objects floating in the ocean do. This does not mean that they cannot rise and fall at will, but that if no special effort is made they come to their level and remain there. Astral matter gravitates towards the center of the earth just as physical matter does; both obey the same general laws.” (Charles Leadbeater, The Inner Life, page 156)

People of the lower astral sub-planes (Hell), then, generally reside below the surface of the Earth. This explains the orthodox religious teaching of Hell being below us (and Heaven being above). (As parts of the Earth are of great heat and pressure, this is also a connection to the idea of Hell as a hot place.)

The value of this belief is that people burn off bad 'vibrations' and then slowly move up to higher levels of the astral plane.

When they are ready, most people then return to Earth for more 'training' and reincarnate into a new human body. When they are ready to move up to the next level, they can enter Nirvana. (I believe in both Heaven and Nirvana, and I see no conflict between the two concepts.)

As I said, this is a very complicated topic. I hope this very short explanation helps.

"Will we be physical or spirit."

--> Spirit. There is nothing physical about the afterlife. Physical bodies cannot exist on the astral plane.

"...will we know our family member or not?"

--> Again, here is a simple answer to a complicated topic. Immediately after death, we are still here, we just do not have a physical body any more. As such, we can still 'see' people here on Earth, and we can talk to them every night when our still-alive relatives do astral traveling. (Everyone does astral traveling at night, while they are asleep.) The higher levels of Heaven are different, in that we create our own illusion of Heaven, and create our illusions of our loved-ones in that Heaven.

"I do however believe in the lake of fire where the non-elect will be purged of their carnality...."

--> You have described the non-physical astral plane perfectly. Imagine, if you will, people who die. They still have all of their desires, their addictions, their anger, etc. (People seem to think things like alcohol and tobacco addictions disappear as soon as they die -- they do not, why should they?) Also, it is said that these desires are much stronger on the astral plane than they were on the physical plane. Also, people who did bad things like murder and rape will feel the pain that they caused. It will be just as bad as the 'lake of fire' that you describe, although it will not be a punishment from any God, it will be a world that we ourselves have created, with nobody to blame but ourselves.

"...we will be fired just as clay is to remove the impurities."

--> ...and the place where this happens is Hell. You describe the very place you do not believe in.

This 'firing' is exactly what happens on the lower astral planes after death. Impurities are burned out, although they are emotions, not physical things. As lower forms of emotional impurities are burned off, we 'float' up to higher levels. This also explains the idea of Purgatory, which to me is a real place, and makes just as much sense as Heaven and Hell.

"I think it will be a terrifing experience."

--> I understand that, for most people, the time between reincarnations is a fairly nice experience. (Most people are not murderers, etc.)

"...in order for us to be in God's kingdom we must first be changed from flesh and blood to spirit."

--> We already ARE spirit. (Even the Bible says that.) We use physical bodies only because we are at too low a level of maturity. Once we rise to a high enough level of spirituality, we will discard physical bodies forever, because we will no longer need them. This is what the Bible teaches, although it does it in a convoluted way.

"Then and only then will [we] be in the image of God and be part of His family."

--> I disagree. I believe there are many, many levels between Earth and the Absolute. Moving up to Nirvana will be only moving up one level.

"...a god sending his creation to a hell to be torture and tormented for all enterity."

--> This, of course, does not make any sense at all.
 
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