The End Times: The Quran vs The Hadith

[c0de]

CONTENTS:

Part 1 - No More Messiahs
Part 2 - The Dajjal/Antichrist of the Hadith
Part 3 - The Gog and Magog of the Quran
Part 4 - Who are the Gog & Magog?
Part 5 - The Meanings within the Myth
​

Part 1 - No More Messiahs
​

Every major religion has their own version of this prophecy. Most also have the Messianic element in common. One interesting factor is that in Islam, the Messianic element is NOT present in the Quran itself. Nowhere in the Quran is there mention of another Messiah (Jesus PBUH or otherwise) returning after the Prophet. Nor is there any mention of an antichrist/Dajjal... Both of these ideas are introduced in Muslim thought through the Hadith.

Now first of all, the Quran actually contradicts the idea that Jesus (Peace be upon him) is alive in physical form and will come back into this world before Judgment Day. This is proven by the following verse in the Quran. Note that: God says He will question Jesus Peace Be Upon Him, on the Day of Judgment about the doctrine of Trinity that his followers adopted. Jesus PBUH in reply says **that this doctrine was introduced after his death.** Which is proof positive that Jesus PBUH has passed away, as the doctrine of Trinity was introduced in Christianity well over a 1000 years ago (I am not sure exactly when however, maybe the Council of Nicea)

Chapter 5: Verse 117
"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

From what we already know about the other verses in the Quran, it is clear that:

A) The Son of Mary was not divine and possessed a normal human physical constitution.
B) No man is granted extended life (Quran 21:34 + 21:8)

So from this, we can already see that all the Hadiths which promise a second coming, are immediately false, because they contradict the Quran. This is our first conclusion, that Islam does not contain the Messianic account of the End Times, which is central to Judiasm and Christianity. We Muslims are supposed to believe that our Prophet was the actual Messiah that is being awaited for by the Jews and Christians. It is only our mis-understanding which has led us also to now stand in wait for the return of Jesus (PBUH) even when our Quran is explicit on the issue of his non-return.

Part 2 - The Dajjal/Antichrist of the Hadith

There are numerous hadith narrated which deal with the concept of the Dajjal, however this figure is completely absent from the Quran. The Anti-christ/Dajjal is said to be on his way in the Hadith, and is supposed to be killed by Jesus PBUH himself. However, we have already established that Jesus PBUH is not coming back (according to the Quran). If this is so, what about the Dajjal?

Three possibilities exist:

A) The Dajjal is also a fabrication and does not exist
B) The Dajjal is real, but it is not dependent on Jesus PBUH returning
C) The Dajjal is a metaphor and a symbol

I believe that option C is the closest to the truth for the reason that something along the lines of the Dajjal is represented by the Gog and Maggog in the Quran.

Part 3 -The Gog and Magog of the Quran​

In the Quran, specifically near the end of the chapter entitled "The Cave", we find a detailed account of the Gog and Magog. The account tells of a King Dhul Qurnain (considered by some to represent the historical figure of Darius II of the Persian Empire) who builds a wall against some barbarous tribes in the north of his empire. First he travels to the Black Sea, then turns and heads to the Caspian, securing the Northern boundaries of Persia. It is important to note that Darius II was a fervent follower of Zoroaster, which some Muslims consider to be a Prophet of God sent to the Persians. Darius the Second actually built the Wall at Derbent, (which is on the banks of the Caspian Sea) which is mistakenly referred to as Alexander's wall by some today. It is this very structure that the Quran points to (in some opinions) that kept the Gog and Magog out.

But the prophecy is clear. One day, the wall will crumble, and on that day:

"We shall let some of them surge against the others and the trumped will be blown, then We shall gather them all together. And We shall bring forth Hell exposed to view before the disbelievers. Whose eyes were under a cover from my reminder, and they could not bear to hear" Chapter 18 "The Cave", Verses 99-101

This is a dark prophecy... As much as people have tried to give a positive spin to these words, the truth is obvious: There is no happy ending to the world. Compare the words "We shall let some of them surge against the others" of the Quran, with the words of the Bible, the Book of Mathew

"For nation shall rise against nation: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." Matt 24:7-8.

Part 4 -Who are the Gog & Magog?
​

There is a hadith, in which God states: "I have created some of my servants whom no one can destroy but Myself" (Kanaz al-Ummal fi Sunani-l-Aqwal wa-l-Afal, by Al-Shaikh Ala al-Din Ali al-Muttaqi, page 3021). In Sahih Muslim, we read: "No one will have the power to fight against them" (Muslim 52:20). Taken together, the Quran and the Hadith point to an all but invincible entity which can not be tackled by any combined human effort, let alone a single human being. This sounds very similar to something like the Dajjal of the Hadith. We can, at this point choose to say that the Dajjal really is the Gog and Magog. And one reason why we can say this is because regarding the Dajjal, in the Hadith, the Prophet said that whoever recites the first and/or last ten verses of the chapter of the Quran entitled "The Cave" they will protect him from his tribulations (Sahih Muslim 6:42 and Kitab al Sunnah, Abu Dawood Suliman 36:12).

This is the same chapter that deals with the Gog and Magog. And the verses that are being spoken of, are very crucial to understanding what connects all the concepts together:

"Say: Shall We inform you who are the greatest losers in respect of deeds? Those whose effort goes astray in this world's life, and they think that they are making good manufactures" Verses: 103-104

Manufactures? A clear hint to something post industrial. The era which we are in right now, qualifies as this period in time when Gog and Magog will be let loose upon the world. We know that they will "sally forth from every point of eminence" which means they will control all the strategic advantages the world has to offer. But how can this be? These strategic points are located all over the globe, they comprise not just of geographic locations, but of resource areas as well. So clearly, the subject here is not of any one nation, but of something more.

All nations can be destroyed, all empires fall apart, and all people die by themselves. But the Gog and Magog are stated to be invincible... So there is only one possibility left, that Gog and Magog, are a system. But why then did Darius II build a wall against them? How can a system be stopped by a wall?

The only way to reconcile that portion of the Quran with the hadith, is that if we assume that at the time of Darius II, this system itself did not exist, but maybe the people who developed that system and have become its main proponents did exist back then. Who were the people against which the wall at Derbent was built? These were the Sythians, the tribes in the Caucus region. The history of Europe indicates that Slavic races did mix with the Anglo-Saxons.

However, this description does not have much to do with race, but the geographic location these tribes/people occupied. Race is never really a factor in the Quran because it is not afforded any intrinsic qualities by God in the Quran. So the hint must be to the geographical area. And the locations listed in this passage points to an area North of the Persian Empire. To the North, lies Europe, the home of these tribes which mixed with each other as time passed. And what was born in Europe near the end of the Middle Ages? The Current eco/political system which today controls the entire world. It does not matter where you live, whichever continent you occupy, the market system that is operated today in your country is the same. The money that you use is all connected to the same world economy, and is generated by the central banks of your nation. The system, where ever you go, is the same. And this system, is the "Dajjal," or The Great Deciever...

Part 5 - The Meanings within the Myth
​

While Muslims today go about actually searching for Dajjal in the form of a real person in the shape of the descriptions in the Hadith (with one eye etc.) they do not consider the fact that this description was shown to the Prophet in a dream, a vision. Just as the vision of Daniel PBUH, in the bible was a metahpor, as all visions in dreams are supposed to be metaphoric. So why do we actually believe that the Dajjal is an actual person? Maybe because of the confusion in the hadiths. But if we take those hadiths in the context of the Quranic perspective, the matter becomes much clearer.

The study of the first and last ten verses of the chapter entitled "The Cave" is crucial, as well as all the verses that go in between this chapter. They reveal very clearly the spiritual/materialistic dimension of the enemy that we face. But the conclusion that can not be escaped is this: There is no fighting this enemy. There is not uprising, no revolution and no Messiah to help us overthrow this system. The last Prophet was just that the Last Prophet. He transmitted the Quran, and this is our protection, which protects those who choose to follow it, from the tribulations of the Dajjal. And what is the greatest tribulation of the Dajjal? The greatest manifestation of the oldest deception ever: Making this transitory life seem more important then the absolute spiritual dimension of reality.

All societies have succumbed to the Dajjal, and all people have been enslaved by it. Capitalism/Communism/Socialism/Democracy, it matters not which label you live under, because the Market they all function in is the same.

How fitting is it that the chapter is entitled "The Cave" contains the story of the few youths who sought to run away from the system of idol-worshipping of their time, and they sought refuge in a cave... Yet, they could not escape their basic needs and eventually had to go out for food and supplies. When eventually caught (because they they were using local currency which revealed their identities) they were put to death... yet the Quran shows them as heroes. But why? Well, because it was never upon them to win against, or overthrow the system, but to do the best they could to avoid participation in it. To keep themselves pure. Maybe this is what we are supposed to do today, avoid participation in all the idolatry of global society. The myths, materialism and deception... all of it, to the best that we can manage. Considering we live 1400 years away from our Prophet... in a world steeped in deceptive values and false idols of every type... This itself, is the greatest struggle... The war within, is the only real "Jihad" left to fight...


​

 

[dailogue is the best]

A very intersting thread, c0de. What I like most about is that you presented your own thoughts about the subject, and your own explanations to the Scriptures and Hadiths. I will be back for more discussion, c0de. Get ready, brother .....

 

[c0de]

A very intersting thread, c0de. What I like most about is that you presented your own thoughts about the subject, and your own explanations to the Scriptures and Hadiths. I will be back for more discussion, c0de. Get ready, brother .....

I can't take credit for this. The work done on uncovering the identity of Gog and Maggog comes from the tafsir and research work of a Mr. Mohammed Ali, who articulated his thoughts many decades ago.

The only personal addition that I have made, is the interpretation of the conclusion. The scholar Mr. Ali actually had a much more optimistic outlook, and believed that God will bring about a global spiritual awakening before the Last Day... but I believe that no such awakening will take place.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Well I neither wish to infer nor detract credit for the source but do applaud your effort to distinguish metaphor from fact. We have had our differences already c0de, and you really piss me off when you start telling others what they should think, I mean nothing infuriates me more, but that said I am beginning to see you believe all humans equal. Not a standard Islamic view...(please do not bother to 'quote' me subsequently abrogated verses to the contrary. They will not impress me.) But I see you are but a few steps from accepting that horrible, terrible, cruel reality that there is no god. No salvation. No 72 virgins. No ambrosia. We are each gifted, and it is the most precious of gifts, with a few score years of either mundane or meaningful existence. I am confident that you will not waste it on the propaganda of man who lived many centuries ago. Life is for the living, not for the long dead.

tao

 

[c0de]

@ Tao

Good Mourning

But I see you are but a few steps from accepting that horrible, terrible, cruel reality that there is no god. No salvation.

Please don't confuse my cynicism regarding the finite, with your pessimism of the infinite.

I am confident that you will not waste it on the propaganda of man who lived many centuries ago. Life is for the living, not for the long dead.

When the spirit is alive it can see, much more then the material eyes can fathom. My faith is not based in events that took place in the past but in a reality that is very much alive in the present moment.

I am beginning to see you believe all humans equal.

I do and that equality is applied in such a way: I know that faith is not a property intrinsic to the self, contrary to what you believe. I know that the only reason I believe, and you do not is not because I think I am special and you are not, because I know that I never had a choice not to believe. Not even in my weakest, darkest moments of despair (even in that brief span of time when I considered declaring an open state of rebellion) did I ever question the existence of God... That is a grace that was given to me, I did not earn it. I believe that this life is a moving painting and God is the Painter... and this is just the way I was painted.

Similarly, the reason you do not believe is not because of any intrinsic properties that you might think you have, all of your potentialities were given to you by the One who created you. And the moment He chooses to make you believe, you will. When God chooses to reveal Himself, no one can resist the obviousness of the Truth. For many that moment never truly comes in this life...

This is why I believe that as long as we both end up in the same place, eventually... It all works out. I believe in God's Kingdom, and I know that we will meet there one day... And maybe we will laugh when we remember this present moment in the finite space/time continuum.

 

[Radunzel]

And this is where the quran and sunnah contradict themselves..

the only way people can say it is harmonous with each other is if they are raised muslim.. any single let alone double take proves this for example,. the oft quoted "seal of the prophets" becomes the second from last prophet..

yet the common arguement is isa (pbuh) didnt die therefore when he comes back mohammed (pbuh) is still the last..

then you ask them who will be the last prophet on earth..

its a winless cyclic arguement but still..

to be quite frank the apocolypse and the second coming are rather too important for allah (swt) to leave out of the nobel quran.. therefore its human intervention

 

[c0de]

@ Radunzel

Good Morning, and thank you for joining the discussion

And this is where the quran and sunnah contradict themselves..

the only way people can say it is harmonous with each other is if they are raised muslim.. any single let alone double take proves this for example,. the oft quoted "seal of the prophets" becomes the second from last prophet..

yet the common arguement is isa (pbuh) didnt die therefore when he comes back mohammed (pbuh) is still the last..

then you ask them who will be the last prophet on earth..

its a winless cyclic arguement but still..

to be quite frank the apocolypse and the second coming are rather too important for allah (swt) to leave out of the nobel quran.. therefore its human intervention

What puzzles me most of all is that Muslims seriously try to entertain this contradiction and try to find ways around it, basically in favor of the Hadith! If it clearly contradicts the Quran, why not simply drop it and move on?

 

[Radunzel]

thank you c0de for bringing this up because this is a subject very passionate to me..

when i had a doubt of faith i went down to the masjid and a revert himself was arguing parts of the quran to me and it turns out that he himself had never read the quran since reverting,, he had left a wife and 2 children become muslim and simply spent all his time in a mosque to "prove" his belife.. he now has a new wife and 2 new children.. yet has still never read the quran...

how can a man pretend to be a pious muslim and having not read the quran.. when it is plain as the nose on my face when all he is following is the sunnah?

he seeks with his eyes "how a muslim lives" ie the sunnah yet completely disregards the world of allah (Swt).. i know this is nothing new because people reverting for false reasoning is well known.. to escape or to undo the western view of feminism, infactuation with a beautful sister ect..

but everyone knows on this forum no matter what creed color or name what conjecture is.. and to believe the sunnah and the noble quran co-exsist AT ALL let alone compliment each other is painfully so.. its either

a) Raised Belief

or

b) Willing to accept contradiction to become muslim

BUt in both cases its a severe lack of human intellect.

its really worrying that in all the mosques i have been to.. people follow the sunnah to the letter yet few have finished the quran let alone re-read it many times... i have read the quran about 40+ times yet some men.. who dress far more orthodox than me.. 30 years older than me.. who make more dua than me.. have never finished it..

it is a strange paradox.. the sunnah makes islam an upbringing and a lifestyle, not actually submitting your will to allah.

why quranically are jews no longer the chosen people...???? for making judaism a breed and not a religion..

those who do not accept the past are doomed to repeat it..

Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was a great and pious man.. he did not deserve a book of chinese whispers to be called "his path" to be written 200 years after his death and constantly contradicting the quran

it is one of the perculiar ways of sunni orthodoxy..

just like when they praise hussan and hussain. makes me go WTF?

who burned down the house of fatima.. (sorry)

 

[c0de]

Ironically, It seems Muslims end up ignoring the really crucial hadiths... like the one in which the Prophet warns us that Muslims will end up repeating the same mistakes of the Jews and Christians before us.

 

[farhan]

@ Radunzel

they read hadith, not sunnah. You cant read sunnah anyways. They get glimpses of sunnah from hadith, with some heavy corruption.

 

[Radunzel]

sorry i meant it as a paraphrase for al muslim and al bukhari sorry should be so generic apologys

 

[dailogue is the best]

salam c0de,

I miss the forums, and all the sisters and the brothers. I was really busy with my work. But now, there is Eid holiday, that i will try to exploit to chat a little bit with you.


Your thread is very important, c0de, and i enjoyed reading it. Yet, I differ with a lot of details with.

Anti-christ is a person as narrated by many hadiths of the prophet Muhamed peace be upon him. There is very detailed description of him in many reliable hadiths.

As far as I see, there is no contradiction between the Quran and the Hadith. The fact that the Quran doesn’t mention any fact about anti-christ doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t believe in hadiths which talk about anti-christ. The five prayers aren’t mentioned in the Quran, and without the Hadiths we wouldn’t know how to pray. God says in the Quran that whatever the prophet Muhamed ask us to do, we should do it. And whatever he ask us to leave, we should leave it. I know this may open the door to some who use some “weak” hadith to justify some irrational behaviors. But, we should never ever depend on the Quran alone.

Yet, I found that the thread is presenting a new insight to the issue of anti-christ: system. For me, I agree with the hadiths which talk about anti-christ as a person, and I believe too that Jesus peace be upon him will come down to earth again. The issue that he was dead or not isn’t something to worry about. God may resurrect him again to come down to earth again to kill anti-christ. Also, the issue of Muhamed peace be upon him being the last prophet or not is very solved. How? Jesus peace be upon him is going to be ressurcted. He wouldnt be a new prophet. He is the prophet who was sent before Muhamed peace be upon him , and thats why Muhamed peace be upon him is/ will be considered as the seal of prophets.There would be no new holy book, and no new teachings as the Quran is perserved to keep God's teachings all alive.


My point of view may seem very traditional. It is what I believe in. I welcome any comments that may enrich our discussion and widen our knowledge, and please forgive me if I may be late in replying.

Salam / peace

 

[c0de]

Good to see you back DIB, w'salam

salam c0de,

I miss the forums, and all the sisters and the brothers. I was really busy with my work. But now, there is Eid holiday, that i will try to exploit to chat a little bit with you.

Here in Canada you hardly notice Eid at all... which sux.

Anti-christ is a person as narrated by many hadiths of the prophet Muhamed peace be upon him. There is very detailed description of him in many reliable hadiths.

A detailed description does not rule out the possibility of metaphor DIB. Remember Daniel's vision in the Bible? A very detailed description, yet all of them were symbolic.

As far as I see, there is no contradiction between the Quran and the Hadith.

I guess this is where we both will have to agree to disagree.
You say that because Jesus PBUH would be ressurected, that means that
he would not be granted extended life, because he would basically be
resuming his life from the point that he died, I presume?

As far as I understand it, Jesus PBUH was an ordinary mortal. And as
was subject to the very same laws that everyone else is subject to.

I also believe that the idea that he will come back and save us from the
anti-christ actually makes us more vulnerable to the reality of the
anti-christ in the form of the "system"... which in a sense, is much more
dangerous then any anti-christ in a human form. Since this system, is
invisible, and most do not even recognize its existence.

Allah knows best... besides, as long as we all take care of our own
iman, it doesn't really matter much anyway. The power of the Dajjal,
in whatever form, can not overpower the power of faith. I guess that
is what we need to worry about more... fighting our own demons.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Good to see you back DIB, w'salam

Thank you, brother. May God bless you.

Here in Canada you hardly notice Eid at all... which sux.

Actually, you are losing a lot by lacking Eid manifestations.......

A detailed description does not rule out the possibility of metaphor DIB. Remember Daniel's vision in the Bible? A very detailed description, yet all of them were symbolic.

The prophet Muhammed peace be upon him tried to make his sayings very clear, and he used to talk to people according to their level of understanding. I dont think that the prophet Muhamed peace be upon him would have described a system "as one blinded eye", and " between his eyes, it is written K.F.R". I am open to new interpretation, but I see the literal one more closer to me.

I guess this is where we both will have to agree to disagree.
You say that because Jesus PBUH would be ressurected, that means that
he would not be granted extended life, because he would basically be
resuming his life from the point that he died, I presume?

No, this not what i meant, c0de. In the Quran, we find the following verse which says: "3:46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." And the right word for maturity is "old" as "kahlan" in Arabic means old. Some Muslim scholars think of this as the second coming of Jesus peace be upon him when he will speak to people in his old times. Since it has happened that Jesus peace be upon him spoke to the people from the crib, it will come too that he will speak to them when he will be an old man. Yet, I am not saying that he would be ressurected to resume his life the point he died, or that he isnt mortal. no. But, God always makes His words come true, by saying "be", and it "be"

I also believe that the idea that he will come back and save us from the anti-christ actually makes us more vulnerable to the reality of the
anti-christ in the form of the "system"... which in a sense, is much more
dangerous then any anti-christ in a human form. Since this system, is
invisible, and most do not even recognize its existence.

Even if he would be in a human form, his "fitna" would be so great, especially for those of weak iman. That's why, the Prophet peace be upon him teaches us to say after tachahud the following duae :"My Lord, I ask your protection from torment of the Hell, torment of the grave the trials in life time and after death, and from the impostor Antichrist."

Allah knows best... besides, as long as we all take care of our own
iman, it doesn't really matter much anyway. The power of the Dajjal,
in whatever form, can not overpower the power of faith. I guess that
is what we need to worry about more... fighting our own demons.

Very true indeed,c0de. What we should focus upon is to do goog and do good, and strive for God's cause.

 

[dailogue is the best]

ALso, c0de, dont forget that the Quran mentions the story of the people of the cave who slept for 300 hundred years, and also the story of the owner of the donkey whom God made him dead for 100 years, then He raised him again

 

[c0de]

Salam DIB, hope your having a nice holiday

ALso, c0de, dont forget that the Quran mentions the story of the people of the cave who slept for 300 hundred years, and also the story of the owner of the donkey whom God made him dead for 100 years, then He raised him again

Good thing you brought this up DIB, it gives me a chance to show you how the Quran uses metaphor.

Most people think that verse about the youths being dead for 300 years and then waking up, is talking about those youths who took refuge in the cave, but I think the scholar is right when he points out that it is not. Read that verse again. That verse comes after the youth's have already died in the previous verses. Their story has finished, and then God says that "they stayed in the cave for 300 years, and they add nine".

Now the question is, what is the Cave? The Cave signifies the underground. And "they"... are the early Christians. So in this sense, this verse is talking about how Christianity stayed pure, by going underground for 300 years. This is historical fact DIB. And there is more evidence of how these words are a metaphor for Christianity:

The scholar traces the date for the birth of Jesus PBUH, (which is actually 5-6 BCE) and then he takes the date for the First Council of Nicaea, in 325 CE, when the doctrine of Trinity was introduced and made official. The reason why the verse in the Quran says "And they add nine" is because when you you transfer 300 solar years and convert them into lunar years, you have to add nine years (exactly 9). And that gives you the exact number 300, or 325 CE (plus the 9, plus the 5 years accounting for the fact that Jesus was actually born 5 years before the start of the Christian calendar)... this gives us the date for the Council of Nicaea where the doctrine of "Trinity" was introduced... or made official.

So do you see DIB? The whole chapter of the Cave... which contains parables, the story about Gog and Maggog... and Dhul Qurnain (AS)... even the story of Moses travelling in search of knowledge, its all hinting at the end times. Remember the wall that Moses's companion rebuilds? ... I think there is a significance in that story about these end times as well. The wall is rebuilt, but it is meant to fall down, and a treasure revealed for its rightful owners... think about it. What can the treasure be for us? Because for us, the wall has fallen down.

But there is nothing I can say which will convince you if you feel more comfortable with the the majority view. It is up to you what you want to believe. And like you say, you feel more comfortable with the literal versions...

btw, AFAIK, which story about the man with a donkey are you referring to? Please give me the verse numbers.

No, this not what i meant, c0de. In the Quran, we find the following verse which says: "3:46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." And the right word for maturity is "old" as "kahlan" in Arabic means old. Some Muslim scholars think of this as the second coming of Jesus peace be upon him when he will speak to people in his old times. Since it has happened that Jesus peace be upon him spoke to the people from the crib, it will come too that he will speak to them when he will be an old man. Yet, I am not saying that he would be ressurected to resume his life the point he died, or that he isnt mortal. no. But, God always makes His words come true, by saying "be", and it "be"

The words used to describe Jesus PBUH talking in the cradle, do not neccissarily mean that Jesus PBUH was actually a child in the cradle. Those were just the words uttered by the Rabbis as a derrogatory expression against this young man who was telling them that he had the authority of God, and they should listen to him. They considered Jesus PBUH too young for them to pay any attention to his warnings. It was a derogatory expression used by the elders against a young prophet, who they did not recognize as possessing divine favor.

Jesus PBUH was a younger prophet then most, but this does not mean that he was actually, literally a child in the cradle, when he began his ministry. This is what the Christians believe... and we are not Christians. It is stated clearly in the Quran that Mary (AS) went away to another place in solitude when she was pregnant with Jesus PBUH... We do not know how long she stayed away from her familly, it could have been years, enough time for Jesus PBUH to grow up into a young man.

Even if he would be in a human form, his "fitna" would be so great,

Not "would be" DIB.... this fitna is so great. This is what frustrates me... People do not realize that this fitna is already here... it began half a millennium ago. All that is left now is the total destruction of everything... which will probably take another half a millennium. All and all, a day, which according to the Quran, is a thousand years of what we count.

But like I already said... it doesnt really matter what version of dajjal you believe in. If you do what your supposed to... that is all that matters.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Most people think that verse about the youths being dead for 300 years and then waking up, is talking about those youths who took refuge in the cave, but I think the scholar is right when he points out that it is not. Read that verse again. That verse comes after the youth's have already died in the previous verses. Their story has finished, and then God says that "they stayed in the cave for 300 years, and they add nine".

Now the question is, what is the Cave? The Cave signifies the underground. And "they"... are the early Christians. So in this sense, this verse is talkingabout how Christianity stayed pure, by going underground for 300 years. This is historical fact DIB. And there is more evidence of how these words are a metaphor for Christianity:

I have to admit that I find it very enjoyable and interesting discussing the topic with you. Presenting new insights to the story of people's cave as long as the age of Jesus peace be upon him when he spoke to his people motivates me to engage enthusiastically more in the discussion. And may be because I have what to say in response to your arguments.

Look, brother, I m going to present my arguments in turn, and I hope I wont confuse you.

1- I am Arabic, and I know that no matter how an English translation is excellent, it cannot transmit the right meaning, structure and so on. I re/read those verses talking about the people of the cave, and I can ensure you brother that they are all referring to the people of cave. The Quran is miraculous even in its language that the great Arabian peninsula poets failed to imitate one of its verses. Examine the verses, brother:

[18:10] When the youths took refuge in the cave, they said, "Our Lord, shower us with Your mercy, and bless our affairs with Your guidance."
[18:11] We then sealed their ears in the cave for a predetermined number of years.
[18:12] Then we resurrected them to see which of the two parties could count the duration of their stay therein.
[18:13] We narrate to you their history, truthfully. They were youths who believed in their Lord, and we increased their guidance.

As you may see, brother, the verses are talking about one story of one subject, and the use of connectors “when, then” show the logic sequence of the story. In the verse number 13, God explained that it is the people of cave that it is meant by the story “their history/they were youths…”

2- I agree with you that those youth were followers of the prophet Jesus peace be upon him, and this is a historical fact as you said. But let me explain something very important, brother.

a- The youth were worshipping the only and the one God. They said: ” Our Lord, shower us with Your mercy, and bless our affairs with Your guidance." That is to say, they were stick to the real teachings Jesus peace be upon him came with. The trinity appeared while those youths were sleeping in the cave. So, those youths flee by their religion, pure one, which has nothing to do with the trinity.

b- Eventhough, those youths weren’t Christians. Here, I may get in disagreement with my Christian brothers and sisters, but that what the Quran teaches. Those youths were Muslims (submitters) to the one God. Not Islam as religion, but rather Islam as a characteristic (submission to God). It sounds weird to claim that God sent his prophets with different religions. It is one religion that God asked all his prophets to spread. God says in chapter 2:

131
When his Lord said to him, "Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists)."
132
And this (submission to Allah, Islam) was enjoined by Ibrahim (Abraham) upon his sons and by Yaqoob (Jacob), (saying), "O my sons! Allah has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islam (as Muslims - Islamic Monotheism)."
133
Or were you witnesses when death approached Yaqoob (Jacob)? When he said unto his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We shall worship your Ilah (God - Allah), the Ilah (God) of your fathers, Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), One Ilah (God), and to Him we submit (in Islam)."
134
That was a nation who has passed away. They shall receive the reward of what they earned and you of what you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do.
135
And they say, "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided." Say (to them, O Muhammad Peace be upon him ), "Nay, (We follow) only the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham), Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah (Alone)), and he was not of Al-Mushrikoon (those who worshipped others along with Allah - see V.2:105)."
136
Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Yaqoob (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat (the twelve sons of Yaqoob (Jacob)), and that which has been given to Moosa (Moses) and Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)."

btw, AFAIK, which story about the man with a donkey are you referring to? Please give me the verse numbers.

The one meant here is Uzayr/Ezra (AS) whom the Jews consider as the son of God according to the following Quranic verse: “The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (In this) they are intimate; what the Unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth.[Qur'an 9:30].

The story of Uzayr and his donkey is mentioned in the following Quranic verses : “[2:259] Consider the one who passed by a ghost town and wondered, "How can GOD revive this after it had died?" GOD then put him to death for a hundred years, then resurrected him. He said, "How long have you stayed here?" He said, "I have been here a day, or part of the day." He said, "No! You have been here a hundred years. Yet, look at your food and drink; they did not spoil. Look at your donkey - we thus render you a lesson for the people. Now, note how we construct the bones, then cover them with flesh." When he realized what had happened, he said, "Now I know that GOD is Omnipotent."

Now, c0de, I want to refer you back to the chapter of the cave. It started with the mentioning of the charge against God’ s having a son: “[18:4] And to warn those who said, "GOD has begotten a son!"…Later on, when we come to the mentioning of the resurrection of the youths after 309 years of sleeping, we find the verse says in Arabic: “Wakadalika baathnahom”, which may mean in English, “We also resurrected them”, which may hint to Uzayr’s resurrection as there is hint to him at the opening of the chapter,too.

Moreoever, the verse which talks about Uzar’s resurrection doesn’t leave space for metaphor as the verse firmly points out to uzayr’s food, drink, and donkey.

I don’t know, c0de, but do you try to put every Quranic verse under the microscope of science to prove its materialistic being? And if it doesn’t suit, then metaphor is the only outlet of it. God’s miracle transcends logic and science. I may get explained here, brother.

The words used to describe Jesus PBUH talking in the cradle, do not

necessarily mean that Jesus PBUH was actually a child in the cradle. Those were just the words uttered by the Rabbis as a derrogatory expression against this young man who was telling them that he had the authority of God, and they should listen to him. They considered Jesus PBUH too young for them to pay any attention to his warnings.
Jesus PBUH was a younger prophet then most, but this does not mean that he was actually, literally a child in the cradle, when he began his ministry. This is what the Christians believe... and we are not Christians. It is stated clearly in the Quran that Mary (AS) went away to another place in solitude when she was pregnant with Jesus PBUH... We do not know how long she stayed away from her familly, it could have been years, enough time for Jesus PBUH to grow up into a young man.

The Quran is very clear about Jesus’ speaking whaile he was a baby. It isn’t a statement made by rabbis as you said, but it is rather made by God as He says in the Following verse: “When Allah says: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto you and unto your mother; how I strengthened you with the holy Spirit, so that you spoke unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught you the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how you did shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and did blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and you did heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission . . . (Qur’an 5:109-110).Jesus’s speaking while he was still in the cradle is a fact confirmed by God’s words. It doesn’t imply that Jesus started his mission from that age. Yet, it was one of the miracles to stop people from charging Mary (as) with false accusations.

Concerning how long Mary (as) stayed far from her people to get birth of Jesus (peace be upon him), I lastly read that one of Muslim scholar who is Ibn Abbas, The prophet Muhammed peace be upon him’s cousin, said that Mary (as) gave birth of Jesus (peace be upon him) the moment she bore him in her belly. Are you surprised?! Well, that pregnancy is miraculous; hence we shouldn’t be astonished if giving birth is also miraculous. Ibn Abbas presents his arguments depending on the following Quranic verses: “"So she conceived him, andshe withdrew with him to a far place . And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm.(19:22)…Ibn Abbas who is one of the best interpreters of the Quran focused on the use of connectors : so/ and/ and, which give a hint that there is no notable space between the three actions. Also, Mary (as) couldn’t be far from her people for a long time for they might look for her, and wonder about her presence, while there is no mention to this in The Quran..

Not "would be" DIB.... this fitna is so great. This is what frustrates me... People do not realize that this fitna is already here... it began half a millennium ago. All that is left now is the total destruction of everything... But like I already said... it doesnt really matter what version of dajjal you believe in. If you do what your supposed to... that is all that matters.

Yeah, you are right, brother. Yet, I would like to know to what you exactly refer to as Fitna.

Sorry for the long reply

 

[c0de]

Eid Mubarrak DIB

I have to admit that I find it very enjoyable and interesting discussing the topic with you.

Same here

Moreoever, the verse which talks about Uzar’s resurrection doesn’t leave space for metaphor as the verse firmly points out to uzayr’s food, drink, and donkey.

The tafsir of the Quran I have actually has a fascinating collection of evidence which actually points to this verse being exactly that: a vision. First of all, the scholar points out that the first hint that this is a vision, is that these words are repeating the words in the Bible, and the vision of Ezekial (chapter 37, verses 1 to 10). And in the bible, the passage clearly starts out with the words that make it obvious that this was a vision.

The scholar then moves on to describe the meaning of the vision itself. He takes this vision of Ezekial, as signifying the death of the Jewish nation for a hundred years, which actually happened when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jeruselum and took away the Jews in 599 BC, and then Cyrus brought them back and the temple was rebuilt a 100 years later.

The scholar then further backs up his evidence by citing another scholar, the tafsir of Imam Fakr al Din Razi, who said in his commentary that the words which say that years have not passed over the food, are actually literally telling the subject that when he awoke from his vision, his food and his property was the same, and thus, what he saw was a vision, and he did not actually die for a hundred years.

Now the most important thing to remember DIB, is that no one here is saying that Allah could not make that person die for a 100 years and then bring him back to life. Allah is Allah, He can do anything He pleases. That is not the point. The point is that we have to ask the question: Why are we being told the things we are told in the Quran? What is the meaning behind them? Of course we can just read them and say oh wow, "wondrous things" and this is enough for some people... but I believe that this scholar is right when he says that we have to look deeper and know that there is a significance to the words of the Quran which goes beyond just the obvious.

As you may see, brother, the verses are talking about one story of one subject, and the use of connectors “when, then” show the logic sequence of the story. In the verse number 13, God explained that it is the people of cave that it is meant by the story “their history/they were youths…”

But you also have to ask the question why is their story being related? What is the significance of these youths? Why do the words "300 years, and they add nine" give us the exact date of the end of the ministry of Jesus PBUH and the introduction of the trinity in Christianity?

I don’t know, c0de, but do you try to put every Quranic verse under the microscope of science to prove its materialistic being? And if it doesn’t suit, then metaphor is the only outlet of it. God’s miracle transcends logic and science. I may get explained here, brother.

Again.... I do not reject God's miracles. This has nothing to do with Science. If God is behind those events, then no matter which way you explain them, materialism can not enter into the equation.

 

[dailogue is the best]

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Eid Mubarrak DIB

You, too, c0de. May Allah make all your days Eid. I m holding a party in Eid Mobarek thread. You are welcome, brother...Enjoy your time.

The tafsir of the Quran I have actually has a fascinating collection of evidence which actually points to this verse being exactly that: a vision. First of all, the scholar points out that the first hint that this is a vision, is that these words are repeating the words in the Bible, and the vision of Ezekial (chapter 37, verses 1 to 10). And in the bible, the passage clearly starts out with the words that make it obvious that this was a vision.

The scholar then moves on to describe the meaning of the vision itself. He takes this vision of Ezekial, as signifying the death of the Jewish nation for a hundred years, which actually happened when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jeruselum and took away the Jews in 599 BC, and then Cyrus brought them back and the temple was rebuilt a 100 years later.

The scholar then further backs up his evidence by citing another scholar, the tafsir of Imam Fakr al Din Razi, who said in his commentary that the words which say that years have not passed over the food, are actually literally telling the subject that when he awoke from his vision, his food and his property was the same, and thus, what he saw was a vision, and he did not actually die for a hundred years.

Now the most important thing to remember DIB, is that no one here is saying that Allah could not make that person die for a 100 years and then bring him back to life. Allah is Allah, He can do anything He pleases. That is not the point. The point is that we have to ask the question: Why are we being told the things we are told in the Quran? What is the meaning behind them? Of course we can just read them and say oh wow, "wondrous things" and this is enough for some people... but I believe that this scholar is right when he says that we have to look deeper and know that there is a significance to the words of the Quran which goes beyond just the obvious.

Salam, brother. I am not saying that we shouldnt read between the lines. On the contrary, the more we elaborate the Quran, the more our faith becomes firm and steadfast. I am with scientific, social, and so on miracles in the Quran.

I know that the Quran is miraculous, and even in one vesre, we can present a lot of meaningful interpretations. That's why sayodona Ali (as) said that the Quran has many faces/interpretations.

Well, we may accept the symbolism of "a hundred year", but we may find dufficulty in interpreting Ezra's death as vision. why? Because the coming verses afte Ezra's death show that talks about creation : "[2:259] Consider the one who passed by a ghost town and wondered, "How can GOD revive this after it had died?" GOD then put him to death for a hundred years, then resurrected him. He said, "How long have you stayed here?" He said, "I have been here a day, or part of the day." He said, "No! You have been here a hundred years. Yet, look at your food and drink; they did not spoil. Look at your donkey - we thus render you a lesson for the people. Now, note how we construct the bones, then cover them with flesh." When he realized what had happened, he said, "Now I know that GOD is Omnipotent." .

The man had suspicion about God's revival of dead things, and the miracle which happened to him was the answer to his question.

But you also have to ask the question why is their story being related? What is the significance of these youths? Why do the words "300 years, and they add nine" give us the exact date of the end of the ministry of Jesus PBUH and the introduction of the trinity in Christianity?

their story is related to present a situation where especially youths live in a situation wherein there is a danger on their religion. There was no room for fixation. The pagans were transcending all the limits to uporoot Jesus's teachings. That's what the Muhammed peace be upon him said that when fitna is so spread, then the inner of the earth is better than its surface.

Again, I welcome the interpretation given to the "300 years, and they add nine" since it doesnt eliminate with it the sleeping of the youths in the cave. Also, brother, i found another interpretation about that number. it said that 300 years refers to the number of Christian years, and 309 refer to the number of the hijri years. (If you are interested in this, I may give you details. It is a mathimatical opertaion)

 

[c0de]

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You, too, c0de. May Allah make all your days Eid. I m holding a party in Eid Mobarek thread. You are welcome, brother...Enjoy your time.

Im already there and enjoying the Moroccan sweets

Well, we may accept the symbolism of "a hundred year", but we may find dufficulty in interpreting Ezra's death as vision. why? Because the coming verses afte Ezra's death show that talks about creation : "[2:259] Consider the one who passed by a ghost town and wondered, "How can GOD revive this after it had died?" GOD then put him to death for a hundred years, then resurrected him. He said, "How long have you stayed here?" He said, "I have been here a day, or part of the day." He said, "No! You have been here a hundred years. Yet, look at your food and drink; they did not spoil. Look at your donkey - we thus render you a lesson for the people. Now, note how we construct the bones, then cover them with flesh." When he realized what had happened, he said, "Now I know that GOD is Omnipotent." .

The man had suspicion about God's revival of dead things, and the miracle which happened to him was the answer to his question.

Actually DIB, the opening words of the chapter in the bible make it clear that it was a vision. I am posting a link here and you can read the words yourself. And remember, that the audience for these words in the Quran is also the Christians and Jews.

"The hand of the Lord came upon me, and he brought me out by the spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones...." Chapter 37, book of Ezekial, Old Testament.

oremus Bible Browser : Ezekiel 37

Again, I welcome the interpretation given to the "300 years, and they add nine" since it doesnt eliminate with it the sleeping of the youths in the cave. Also, brother, i found another interpretation about that number. it said that 300 years refers to the number of Christian years, and 309 refer to the number of the hijri years. (If you are interested in this, I may give you details. It is a mathimatical opertaion)

You have to add nine years for every 300 years when you convert solar years to lunar years. But the important question is what does the 300 years signify? Does it mean that those youths died for 300 years? Not necessarily. I think the scholar is right in saying there is more to these words.

Allah knows best.