Paul's background

Ahanu

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“I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, educated strictly according to our ancestral law, being zealous for God, just as all of you are today."
Acts 22.3

How did a Jew become a student of Gamaliel during Paul's time?

Did Paul come from an elite background? Isn't this like someone boasting today that they have attended an elite school such as Harvard or Yale?

These days these types of questions are more interesting than the Paul and incarnation debate to me.
 
Interesting topic. Was this the same Gamaliel who was so nice to the Apostles, in Acts? If so, where did Paul get his self-confessed rabid hatred of Christians from?
 
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Interesting topic. Was this the same Gamaliel who was so nice to the Apostles, in Acts? If so, where did Paul get his self-confessed rabid hatred of Christians from?

His hatred is indeed puzzling. He even says some of his relatives were Christians before him: "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was" (Romans 16.7). Makes it even more puzzling.
 
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“I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, educated strictly according to our ancestral law, being zealous for God, just as all of you are today."
Acts 22.3
How did a Jew become a student of Gamaliel during Paul's time?
I fear the current scholarly position is that Acts can be somewhat 'creative' in establishing its credentials for Paul!

From Paul himself we have him born a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin (Philippians 3:5-6; 2 Corinthians 11:22). He was once a Pharisees. He advanced in Judaism beyond many of his contemporaries, being extremely zealous for the traditions of his Jewish faith (Philippians 3:5; Galatians 1:14). He zealously persecuted the Jesus movement (Galatians 1:13; Philippians 3:6; 1 Corinthians 15:9), and then (c37AD) has a vision he describes as "seeing" Jesus and receives from him his Gospel message as well as his call to be an apostle to the Gentiles (1 Corinthians 9:2; Galatians 1:11-2:2).

He never claimed to be a rabbi, never claimed to have been in Jerusalem, or known Gamaliel, and as @Cino points out, Gamaliel was supposedly a liberal, while Paul was quite the extremist. He never claimed to be a Roman citizen.

I have an essay: "When Did Paul Become a Christian?" (Thomas E. Phillips, in "Christian Origins and the New Testament in the Greco-Roman Context" Claremont Press 2016) which posits the idea – 'ignoring' biographical details in Acts – that Paul was a convert to Christianity and would have been classed as a 'Jewish-Christian hardliner' who subsequently had a vision that led him to become 'The Apostle to the Gentiles' ... it's quite long, but I can précis it if there's interest.

It's available here – you can read online or download a PDF.
 
He even says some of his relatives were Christians before him: "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was" (Romans 16.7). Makes it even more puzzling.
Hi again ... I think the term 'relatives' is read generally, to mean kinsmen, fellow-Christians, etc., rather than a strict familial relation.

It appears Andronicus and Junia were early converts, possibly around the time of Peter's Pentecost lectures in Jerusalem. They were imprisoned, and Paul met them there in one of his early confinements ...
 
He never claimed to be a rabbi, never claimed to have been in Jerusalem, or known Gamaliel, and as @Cino points out, Gamaliel was supposedly a liberal, while Paul was quite the extremist. He never claimed to be a Roman citizen.
I'm in agreement with you up to the last point. In Acts 22:25-28 Paul does indeed claim to be a Roman citizen. Not something a person could just fib about, and is why Paul was sent to Rome to begin with. Local jurisdiction had legal sway unless he was a Roman citizen for the offense he was accused of. Being a Roman citizen, Paul could legally appeal to Rome, which is what he did and why he was extradited there for adjudication.

25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?

26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.

27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.

28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

Were Paul not a Roman citizen, he could not legally appeal to Rome for adjudication, and he would not have gone to Rome otherwise.
 
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Were Paul not a Roman citizen, he could not legally appeal to Rome for adjudication, and he would not have gone to Rome otherwise.
Hi juantoo3, yes, I always considered Paul to have citizenship, but scholars are saying there's no claim for that outside of Acts, and Acts can be questionable ... but then it raises bigger issues, doesn't it, which have to be resolved?

In Paul's own writings, his claim to his Jewishness is contextual, and is relevant to questions of his mission to the Gentiles. I don't see Roman citizenship having any relevance, so there would be no need for him to mention it?
 
Hi juantoo3, yes, I always considered Paul to have citizenship, but scholars are saying there's no claim for that outside of Acts, and Acts can be questionable ... but then it raises bigger issues, doesn't it, which have to be resolved?

In Paul's own writings, his claim to his Jewishness is contextual, and is relevant to questions of his mission to the Gentiles. I don't see Roman citizenship having any relevance, so there would be no need for him to mention it?
Who are those scholars? Do they have an axe to grind?

I'm leaning to what you are pointing to, that the subject really never came up (or was not germane to the situation) until he was arrested.

If I recall, and its been awhile, Paul was in Jerusalem. A quick re-read of Acts 22, he was basically giving personal testimony, telling his story how he was present at the stoning of Stephen, how he persecuted the early believers "unto death" and "prison," and how Jesus came to him in a vision, and how at another time in the Temple he was prepared to witness and Spirit warned him to flee. To this the locals (which I presume included men of social stature and authority) went berserk, "renting" their clothing and hurling dust in the air, etc. They were fixing to stone him to death, or at least deliver him up to the Temple authorities for judgment that would likely lead to stoning anyway. So Paul was facing a capital offense (which wasn't all that difficult to do back then), and why he would have appealed to Rome for adjudication. If I recall, there was an armed guard contingent assigned to escort Paul out of Jerusalem, because some of these men swore an oath to kill him.
 
Who are those scholars? Do they have an axe to grind?
Hi juantoo3 – I gave the link to Thomas E Phillips (not me!) above ... d'you want more, or was that tongue-in-cheek?

I've had a quick look, and reviews of his book are guarded — as ever, some is argued well, other elements not so well.

I'm intrigued to pursue the idea that Paul was a Christian convert before the 'Damascus event', but that he was a Pharisaic 'Jesus for the Jews' kind of guy, the kind of guy he ends up contending with in his later letters ... but other than Phillips' thesis, I have yet to find any support.

Part of Phillips' thesis is in defending himself, Paul never mentions being a student of Gamaliel, or even a rabbi, and that does make me wonder.

And the issue ties in with the author's intention behind Acts ... I could dig out my references on that?

I'm not dismissing Acts ... just noting the incongruities that Ahanu has raised.

+++

Hey, Ahanu — hope we haven't elbowed you aside?
 
Hi juantoo3 – I gave the link to Thomas E Phillips (not me!) above ... d'you want more, or was that tongue-in-cheek?

I guess as many times as you've chided me warning against the likes of the Jesus Seminar when this smacks of their doing, it caught me off guard. Very unlike you...

I'm intrigued to pursue the idea that Paul was a Christian convert before the 'Damascus event', but that he was a Pharisaic 'Jesus for the Jews' kind of guy, the kind of guy he ends up contending with in his later letters ... but other than Phillips' thesis, I have yet to find any support.
Yeah, not so sure about that. I don't know enough about what he says to the matter to form an opinion, but I don't see it in the scripture.

Part of Phillips' thesis is in defending himself, Paul never mentions being a student of Gamaliel, or even a rabbi, and that does make me wonder.
I suppose it is part and parcel of the literary genre, John Dominic Crossan does similar. The difference in my experience being Crossan at least cross references local culture and customs of the time and place, and demonstrates some of the archeological history, at least in the little I am familiar with.

And the issue ties in with the author's intention behind Acts ... I could dig out my references on that?

I'm not dismissing Acts ... just noting the incongruities that Ahanu has raised.

That's fine, but we've been down this rabbit hole before. If Acts is unreliable, neither is Luke, and by extension the other synoptics and the letters of Paul....might as well be Jewish and be done with it.

Hey, Ahanu — hope we haven't elbowed you aside?

Mea Culpa
 
Page 1
When did Paul become a Christian? said:
...I came to see that most of the New Testament narratives were - by modern standards - at least fictive, if not entirely fictional.
ibid said:
By "fictive" I mean that the narratives, even quite likely derived from historical events, are now cast in terms that render it impossible to create any more than the vaguest semblance of modern history from the ancient New Testament texts.

I can go along for the most part with this definition of "fictive," meaning none of the New Testament was ever intended to be an Historical treatise (and you and I have been over that many times as well), but when we begin calling the New Testament (or any part of the Received Texts) "fictional," we open a can of worms.
 
How did a Jew become a student of Gamaliel during Paul's time?

Did Paul come from an elite background? Isn't this like someone boasting today that they have attended an elite school such as Harvard or Yale?

These days these types of questions are more interesting than the Paul and incarnation debate to me.
White privilege.

Saul of Tarsus came from a wealthy family, and growing up the man who would become Paul is said to have travelled with family throughout the region. So in a sense you are correct in that his family had the wherewithal to send him to the "Ivy League" schools of the day. Paul was already fluently versed in the cosmopolitan cultures that surrounded the Levant well before his conversion on the road to Damascus.
 
It's available here – you can read online or download a PDF.

Still reading it. This person argues Paul never violently persecuted Christians, claims the NRSV's rendering of "violently persecuting" in Gal 1.13 is misleading, and says it should be translated as "chase off" or "drive away" instead.
 
I guess as many times as you've chided me warning against the likes of the Jesus Seminar when this smacks of their doing, it caught me off guard. Very unlike you...
Yep, missed that connection ... suspicions aroused.

Yeah, not so sure about that. I don't know enough about what he says to the matter to form an opinion, but I don't see it in the scripture.
I need to go into it a bit deeper.

That's fine, but we've been down this rabbit hole before. If Acts is unreliable, then ... then ... then ...
Agreed.

I do wonder at times with others who cite a thesis by someone to disregard or discredit a text, when it's evident that the someone in question is a believer.
 
I can go along for the most part with this definition of "fictive," meaning none of the New Testament was ever intended to be an Historical treatise (and you and I have been over that many times as well), but when we begin calling the New Testament (or any part of the Received Texts) "fictional," we open a can of worms.
Absolutely.
 
Still reading it. This person argues Paul never violently persecuted Christians, claims the NRSV's rendering of "violently persecuting" in Gal 1.13 is misleading, and says it should be translated as "chase off" or "drive away" instead.
Having read juantoo3's 'Good God, man, pull yourself together!' (#11 above) I am reviewing Phillip's theory that Paul was a convert prior to his Damascus epiphany, and that his early Christianity was as a militant Jewish convert who sought to 'chase off' or 'drive away' Gentile converts.

There are three points —
The first point is Phillips bases his theory on an apparent contradiction in Paul. In 1 Corinthians Paul says: "For I delivered unto you first of all, which I also received" (15:3) but in Galatians (written earlier) he said: "For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1:11-12)

Phillips resolves this 'contradiction' by positing that Paul was a convert, received the Gospel and followed 'Jewish Christianity' as something of a fundamentalist, but subsequently had his Damascus road experience, at which point he realised God was for everyone, not just the Jews. It's a theory, but there's not much to support it.

The second point is, more recent understandings and insights into Judaism of the time, especially at the hands of Jewish scholars like Pamela Eisenbaum and Paula Fredriksen, demonstrates from a broad range of materials (Jewish and pagan) that there was a significant degree of interchange and fellowship between Jews and Gentiles in both religious and cultural practice. It was nothing strange nor uncommon. Gentiles were not Jews, but that did not exclude them from a significant degree of association.

On that basis, Gentiles among Jewish Christians would be no big deal, the Christian ecclesia was simply reflecting larger Temple and synagogue norms.

Thirdly, the idea of 'conversion' has taken on quite a strict definition, driven by militant practices in later times – to Paul and his contemporaries, a Jew becoming a Christian does not mean forsaking Judaism; a pagan becoming a Jew or Christian might not necessarily forsake his or her gods. There is commentary right up to the 4th century, Jewish, Christian and pagan, in which the practice of 'keeping one's options open' as it were was decried by authorities of their respective religions.

It would seem that while Jewish Christians might hold themselves apart from Gentile Christians, they would not 'chase' or 'drive off', that goes against the idea and spirit of of Peter's Pentecost lectures. If Pauyl was doing that, he was very much a Jewish and Christian outsider. I don't think he'd have any authority to do so.

Whereas Jews – especially hard-line ('zealous') Jews – might well regard their Christian brothers and sisters as apostate. That is more credible, I think?
 
The second point is, more recent understandings and insights into Judaism of the time, especially at the hands of Jewish scholars like Pamela Eisenbaum and Paula Fredriksen, demonstrates from a broad range of materials (Jewish and pagan) that there was a significant degree of interchange and fellowship between Jews and Gentiles in both religious and cultural practice. It was nothing strange nor uncommon. Gentiles were not Jews, but that did not exclude them from a significant degree of association.

On that basis, Gentiles among Jewish Christians would be no big deal, the Christian ecclesia was simply reflecting larger Temple and synagogue norms.

Israel of Paul's time was under Roman occupation. By default everything said above is true because Israel was under Roman occupation. (It is a bit of overstating the obvious...)

The only possible point of contention is "to what degree / percentage?" You had the Pharisees (and probably the Sadducees as well) happy to cozy up to the Romans (Paul was trained as a Pharisee...). You had the Essenes who were trying their level best to stay neutral (or so the prevailing consensus at this moment). And you had the various factions stewing and fomenting insurrection (Zealots, Sicarii). Where the embryonic Christianity fits into the puzzle remains in question, clearly they were not caught up at Qumran. There is some suggestion in the scriptures that they may have initially been associated with the Zealots and Sicarii. And then we have Paul who quite adamantly is based in Pharisaic teaching.

Just shows how G-d works in mysterious ways, considering Jesus made a point to call out the "Scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites!" Yet it was the Pharisaic late comer who saved the faith.

Thirdly, the idea of 'conversion' has taken on quite a strict definition, driven by militant practices in later times – to Paul and his contemporaries, a Jew becoming a Christian does not mean forsaking Judaism; a pagan becoming a Jew or Christian might not necessarily forsake his or her gods. There is commentary right up to the 4th century, Jewish, Christian and pagan, in which the practice of 'keeping one's options open' as it were was decried by authorities of their respective religions.
I think we see echoes of this up to and even after the Nicene Counsel, arguably the Counsel was an attempt to consolidate many of these conflicting "options."

It was also a very Greek method to amalgamate or hybridize thoughts, cherry picking as it were the best of each and concocting whatever suited their fancy for the moment. I think in some situations this was an effective means of doing things, but in other situations it just created havoc that somehow still gained philosophical traction by virtue of established tradition and little more.

Whereas Jews – especially hard-line ('zealous') Jews – might well regard their Christian brothers and sisters as apostate. That is more credible, I think?
And plainly evident by the time of Bar Kochba.
 
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Well Saul was chosen and for A purpose and it is role model we can all copy. I do believe Paul push for something we still abttle in our time, we are singul and we need to be like Paul.
 
Having read juantoo3's 'Good God, man, pull yourself together!' (#11 above) I am reviewing Phillip's theory that Paul was a convert prior to his Damascus epiphany, and that his early Christianity was as a militant Jewish convert who sought to 'chase off' or 'drive away' Gentile converts.

There are three points —
The first point is Phillips bases his theory on an apparent contradiction in Paul. In 1 Corinthians Paul says: "For I delivered unto you first of all, which I also received" (15:3) but in Galatians (written earlier) he said: "For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1:11-12)

Phillips resolves this 'contradiction' by positing that Paul was a convert, received the Gospel and followed 'Jewish Christianity' as something of a fundamentalist, but subsequently had his Damascus road experience, at which point he realised God was for everyone, not just the Jews. It's a theory, but there's not much to support it.

The second point is, more recent understandings and insights into Judaism of the time, especially at the hands of Jewish scholars like Pamela Eisenbaum and Paula Fredriksen, demonstrates from a broad range of materials (Jewish and pagan) that there was a significant degree of interchange and fellowship between Jews and Gentiles in both religious and cultural practice. It was nothing strange nor uncommon. Gentiles were not Jews, but that did not exclude them from a significant degree of association.

On that basis, Gentiles among Jewish Christians would be no big deal, the Christian ecclesia was simply reflecting larger Temple and synagogue norms.

Thirdly, the idea of 'conversion' has taken on quite a strict definition, driven by militant practices in later times – to Paul and his contemporaries, a Jew becoming a Christian does not mean forsaking Judaism; a pagan becoming a Jew or Christian might not necessarily forsake his or her gods. There is commentary right up to the 4th century, Jewish, Christian and pagan, in which the practice of 'keeping one's options open' as it were was decried by authorities of their respective religions.

It would seem that while Jewish Christians might hold themselves apart from Gentile Christians, they would not 'chase' or 'drive off', that goes against the idea and spirit of of Peter's Pentecost lectures. If Pauyl was doing that, he was very much a Jewish and Christian outsider. I don't think he'd have any authority to do so.

Whereas Jews – especially hard-line ('zealous') Jews – might well regard their Christian brothers and sisters as apostate. That is more credible, I think?

Yeah, I read the PDF. Definitely a view I haven't heard before. Will have to think about it. Makes me want to reread Paul with that retelling in mind.
 
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