What is the Baha'i message in simple words?

Status
Not open for further replies.
RJM said:
Sorry I'm back to try to sort out the Baha'I attitude to the trinity ...
Click to expand...
I'm thinking that there are many Baha'i attitudes to the Trinity. I'll tell you mine, after spending many hours in a forum that was all about the Trinity. One thing I noticed is that the words "person" and "is" don't mean the same things in the Trinity doctrine that they mean in everyday conversation. Another is that it isn't really about whether God is one, or three, or any other number. As the owner of the forum told me, it's about "WHO GOD IS." Another is that it's a mystery that no one who understands it claims to really understand, and every effort to try to make it understandable ends in some kind of heresy. I don't see anything wrong with people thinking that way, and I think that it can be very helpful and beneficial sometimes for a personal relationship with God, as long people are aware of all the ways that it can be misunderstood and misused.

(later) Also, the Holy Spirit is like a person in some ways, and not like a person in some other ways. Calling the Holy Spirit a "person" in English is a misleading translation, but maybe there isn't any better way to say it in English, and "person" is good enough for what it's for, if people understand its limitations.
 
Last edited:
Longfellow said:
First, "recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation." He says "Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." The second duty is "to observe every ordinance" of Baha'u'llah.
Click to expand...
Bahaollah was a narcissist, a self-praising parrot who would repeat that day-in and day-out. Allah is just an adjunct. There always are the gullible who can be trapped. Fake Hindu 'swamies' also take advantage in the same way.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Who will waste that much time on what an uneducated 19th Century Iranian said in self-praise. There are better reads.
Click to expand...

Many of the world's public school systems - including America's - were exported from 19th century Prussia. The idea was to promote loyalty to one's state and nationalism. I hope being considered educated doesn't require going through one of these, dear @Aupmanyav.

You dismiss Baha'u'llah as uneducated. Meanwhile some of Baha'u'llah's enemies in Iran want to prove he was highly educated, saying he received his education from a private tutor since he comes from an aristocratic family.

I personally believe there is a third view beyond educated or uneducated. You know how some people in this world can see colors we cannot? I believe some people can intuitively perceive inner realities about themselves and society in general that are not readily available to everybody else.

Aupmanyav said:
All religions claim that. That is jazz only. Which God or Goddess? We have hundreds of them. God of Abraham is not one of them.Beliefs of all religions cannot be reconciled.
Click to expand...

Progressive revelation has always existed. Before our existence. Before our planet formed. Who is to say some of the stars themselves are not Manifestations of God since they eventually gave rise to us? From particles to stars to minds. ;)

 
Last edited:
Longfellow said:
Maybe you would like to know what Baha'u'llah says are the first two duties prescribed by God for His servants: First, "recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation." He says "Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." The second duty is "to observe every ordinance" of Baha'u'llah. He says that those two duties are inseparable, that neither is acceptable without the other. There is a wide range of understanding among Baha'is about it means to recognize Baha'u'llah, what He means by all that, and what His laws are; and no one with any authority to tell all Baha'is what to think, or to speak for all Baha'is in answering those questions.
Click to expand...

You have quoted inaccuracies

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.."

I am sure to add ones interpretation to quotes is not according to forum rules, or at least it is not very honest.

Regards Tony
 
Cino said:
... what I consider a serious misrepresentation of Buddhism in the writings of the Baha'i founders.
Click to expand...

Now I want to go back to my original reason for posting: to say what I personally think about what Abdu'l-Baha allegedly said, that Buddha established the oneness of God. I don't see it as a reason for thinking that Buddha taught some kind of belief in the God of Abraham. I think that would be contrary to Buddha's opposition to all kinds of speculation about the origin of the cosmos. I think that what Abdu'l-Baha might have meant, if he actually said that, was that Buddha abolished the idols.
 
Longfellow said:
I've been trying to learn not to argue with people about their terminologies. If people want to call their personal belief system or someone else's "the Baha'i Faith," or even project an imaginary belief system onto some other people and call that "the Baha'i Faith," I don't think that there's anything I can do to change that, and I won't try. All I want to do is to inform people that there is a worldwide community of people with that same name, which is not about promoting or defending some belief system. It's about people working side by side in neighborhoods and villages all around the world, learning together to help make their community life healthier, happier and more friendly, for every person who lives in and around the community.
Click to expand...
Fair enough
Longfellow said:
I'm thinking that there are many Baha'i attitudes to the Trinity. I'll tell you mine, after spending many hours in a forum that was all about the Trinity. One thing I noticed is that the words "person" and "is" don't mean the same things in the Trinity doctrine that they mean in everyday conversation. Another is that it isn't really about whether God is one, or three, or any other number. As the owner of the forum told me, it's about "WHO GOD IS." Another is that it's a mystery that no one who understands it claims to really understand, and every effort to try to make it understandable ends in some kind of heresy. I don't see anything wrong with people thinking that way, and I think that it can be very helpful and beneficial sometimes for a personal relationship with God, as long people are aware of all the ways that it can be misunderstood and misused.

(later) Also, the Holy Spirit is like a person in some ways, and not like a person in some other ways. Calling the Holy Spirit a "person" in English is a misleading translation, but maybe there isn't any better way to say it in English, and "person" is good enough for what it's for, if people understand its limitations.
Click to expand...
Of course God is not a human person. The terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit are used to try to put it into human words how the spiritual dimension contains and permeates and 'weaves' nature, but is not contained by it.

The whole problem is other faiths tying to over-simplify what Christian trinitarians think and believe, imo -- waving away two thousand years of Christian thought with a few casual words...
 
Last edited:
Ahanu said:
Meanwhile some of Baha'u'llah's enemies in Iran want to prove he was highly educated, saying he received his education from a private tutor since he comes from an aristocratic family.
Who is to say some of the stars themselves are not Manifestations of God since they eventually gave rise to us? From particles to stars to minds. ;)
Click to expand...
His level of education is apparent in his writings.
Before you ascribe the universe and stars to God, give evidence of God's existence. Do not just assert.
 
Aupmanyav said:
His level of education is apparent in his writings.
Before you ascribe the universe and stars to God, give evidence of God's existence. Do not just assert.
Click to expand...
... He made the circuits of these luminous divine orbs to be their lofty and celestial spheres; and He made the bodies of these spiritual spheres to be subtle and soft, flowing and liquid, undulating and vibrating, in such manner that these refulgent orbs swim in the circumferences of the spheres, and move in their vast space by the aid of their Creator and Maker, their Ordainer and Fashioner.

Divine and all-encompassing Wisdom hath ordained that motion be an inseparable concomitant of existence, whether inherently or accidentally, spiritually or materially. This movement must be governed by some check or rein, some regulator or director, otherwise order will be disrupted and the spheres and bodies will fall from the heavens ... the bodies of the celestial spheres are in the utmost degree of subtlety, lightness and fluidity ...

As for those who claim that the celestial spheres are massive, solid and contiguous with each other; that they are glassy, transparent and penetrable to the light of other bodies; capable of neither being cleft asunder nor welded back together; forever impermeable and imperishable -- these thoughts are mere suppositions and surmises made by people who have not understood the meaning of the brilliant verse that clearly states: 'All swim in a celestial sphere' (21:34, 36:40). The import of this verse is clear inasmuch as the act of swimming cannot be conceived of except in yielding, fluid, liquid bodies, and is quite impossible in solid, resistant bodies. Look, then, with discerning vision into this clear, conclusive and manifest proof.

https://bahai-library.com/abdul-baha_lawh_aflakiyyih
 
Last edited:
Thomas said:
At this time, the Bahá'í administration either pressured to resign, or actively disenrolled, a number of Bahá'í intellectuals associated with the online Talisman discussion list, for disagreeing with the received line on certain controversial issues.
Click to expand...

Yes, I came across reports of these events, too, while researching the Baha'i faith a couple of years ago.

Some of those who were disenrolled? excommunicated? were publishing interesting (to me) material on mystical aspects of the Baha'i corpus.

Yes, same old, but it is interesting to see these events unfold live and in colotr, rather than read about the in millennia old documents such as accounts of the second Buddhist Council, or the upset between Paul and the Jerusalem church...
 
Thomas said:
"At this time, the Bahá'í administration either pressured to resign, or actively disenrolled, a number of Bahá'í intellectuals associated with the online Talisman discussion list, for disagreeing with the received line on certain controversial issues."
Click to expand...
Cino said:
Yes, I came across reports of these events, too, while researching the Baha'i faith a couple of years ago.

Some of those who were disenrolled? excommunicated? were publishing interesting (to me) material on mystical aspects of the Baha'i corpus.
Click to expand...

Three of them were removed from the membership, because the House of Justice decided that they weren’t qualified. One person that I know of, and possibly a few others, resigned when they were warned that if they continued their campaigns of denunciation and intimidation against other Baha’is, they were in danger of being excommunicated. None of them ever actually were excommunicated.

Thomas, Cino, do you see any reason to believe that the reason for the actions of the administration was for disagreeing with the received line? I have reasons for not believing it.
 
Last edited:
RJM said:
As for those who claim that the celestial spheres are massive, solid and contiguous with each other; that they are glassy, transparent and penetrable to the light of other bodies; capable of neither being cleft asunder nor welded back together; forever impermeable and imperishable -- these thoughts are mere suppositions and surmises made by people who have not understood the meaning of the brilliant verse that clearly states: 'All swim in a celestial sphere' (21:34, 36:40). The import of this verse is clear inasmuch as the act of swimming cannot be conceived of except in yielding, fluid, liquid bodies, and is quite impossible in solid, resistant bodies. Look, then, with discerning vision into this clear, conclusive and manifest proof.
https://bahai-library.com/abdul-baha_lawh_aflakiyyih
Click to expand...
That shows the education level of Abdul Baha as well. Abdul Baha also was not college-educated.
 
Aupmanyav said:
That shows the education level of Abdul Baha as well. Abdul Baha also was not college-educated.
Click to expand...
I'm sure education is not a requirement of holiness or spiritual wisdom. However it becomes an issue when making infallible declarations to be followed for 1000 years. My whole problem with Baha'u'llah is his self-declaration as the only valid messenger, especially when making judgements upon Christian trinitarian or other beliefs.

Always just my own opinion ...
 
RJM said:
Of course God is not a human person. The terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit are used to try to put it into human words how the spiritual dimension contains and permeates and 'weaves' nature, but is not contained by it.

The whole problem is other faiths tying to over-simplify what Christian trinitarians think and believe, imo -- waving away two thousand years of Christian thought with a few casual words...
Click to expand...

I forgot, what I actually thought about the words "is" and "person" in the Trinity doctrine was that they don't have the same meanings there that they ever have in any other context.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM
Longfellow said:
I forgot, what I actually thought about the words "is" and "person" in the Trinity doctrine was that they don't have the same meanings there that they ever have in any other context.
Click to expand...
It was quite understood
 
Longfellow said:
No creed, no list of beliefs that a person has to say they believe. The things to consider, when they are considered, are about a person's understanding of the roles of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and Baha'i institutions in the Baha'i community, about their attitudes towards them, and about their understanding and acceptance of the responsibilities of membership.
Click to expand...
Thank you.

There is a lot of mention of "the Covenant", though. Does it play a role for people or institutions to decide on the matter, in your opinion?

What in brief terms is this covenant?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top