What is the Baha'i message in simple words?

[Longfellow]

Thank you.

There is a lot of mention of "the Covenant", though. Does it play a role for people or institutions to decide on the matter, in your opinion?

What in brief terms is this covenant?

Sorry, I got sidetracked. I don’t really want to answer questions about the Baha’i Faith. I fell into that because it upsets me when I see people calling personal or imagined belief systems “the Baha’i Faith.” Ill just refer people to bahai.org for questions about the community. I’ll answer questions about my own personal understanding of Baha’i writings, but not about the Baha’i Faith in general.

(later) Oh. That’s what you’re asking for. In my understanding, there are actually two. One is God’s covenant with all people for him to send messengers and for us to follow them. The other is a way for followers of Baha’u’llah not to split up into opposing factions when they disagree with each other about what to do.

 

[RJM]

Sorry, I got sidetracked. I don’t really want to answer questions about the Baha’i Faith. I fell into that because it upsets me when I see people calling personal or imagined belief systems “the Baha’i Faith.” Ill just refer people to bahai.org for questions about the community. I’ll answer questions about my own personal understanding of Baha’i writings, but not about the Baha’i Faith in general.

(later) Oh. That’s what you’re asking for. In my understanding, there are actually two. One is God’s covenant with all people for him to send messengers and for us to follow them. The other is a way for followers of Baha’u’llah not to split up into opposing factions when they disagree with each other about what to do.

Baha'i seem like good and sincere people with a faith that does no harm. I would not want to be one to harass or suppress anyone. Questions here have been about the writings of Baha'u'llah, as the scriptural backbone of the Baha'i faith, acknowledging that Baha'i do appear to encourage at least some trappings of conventional religion -- temples and feasts, etc.

IMO @Longfellow please do not be discouraged from expressing your own views here.

 

[Longfellow]

Baha'i seem like good and sincere people with a faith that does no harm. I would not want to be one to harass or suppress anyone. Questions here have been about the writings of Baha'u'llah, as the scriptural backbone of the Baha'i faith, acknowledging that Baha'i do appear to encourage at least some trappings of conventional religion -- temples and feasts, etc.

IMO @Longfellow please do not be discouraged from expressing your own views here.

I loved your "oath of absolute fealty to Baha'u'llah" description of what I said about the first two duties prescribed by God for His servants.

If I gave you all the likes I would want to, I would be flooding your notifications.

 

[Longfellow]

You have quoted inaccuracies

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.."

Regards Tony

At first I didn't understand your objection, but now I think I do. Maybe, you don't think that "Him Who is the Desire of the world" means Baha'u'llah?

 

[Ahanu]

His level of education is apparent in his writings.
Before you ascribe the universe and stars to God, give evidence of God's existence. Do not just assert.

Seemingly inanimate matter has given rise to its exact opposite: consciousness. I cannot help it that you have chosen to declare the evidence you experience daily to be an epiphenomenon, an elaborate illusion that's an unintentional by-product of random matter-in-motion, @Aupmanyav.

That shows the education level of Abdul Baha as well. Abdul Baha also was not college-educated.

How does Abdu'l-Baha's tablet there show his education level?

A college degree is irrelevant.

Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge is well-documented - even by non-Baha'i sources. For example, he was invited by Midhat Pasha to meet with him face-to-face in Beirut. Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'u'llah, and other Bahai's in Akka were still supposed to be confined there under the orders of the Sultan at the time. When Abdu'l-Baha arrived, one Beirut news source said: "His Excellency, the learned, erudite, intelligent and illustrious ‘Abbas Effendi, resident of the city of ‘Akka, has arrived in our city. The purpose of his arrival is change of air, may God prolong his well-being." Another non-Baha'i source claimed "‘Abbas Effendi’s firm grasp and proficiency in each of the Arabic, Turkish and Persian languages is indeed astonishing. In all three languages he is capable in prose and poetry like a native speaker." Many Ottoman intellectuals that were not Baha'is praised his knowledge.

 

[Ahanu]

Some of those who were disenrolled? excommunicated? were publishing interesting (to me) material on mystical aspects of the Baha'i corpus.

Nader Saiedi also contributed to one of those papers. He is a prominent Iranian Baha'i that still gives talks and writes books about the Baha'i Faith today.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

At first I didn't understand your objection, but now I think I do. Maybe, you don't think that "Him Who is the Desire of the world" means Baha'u'llah?

Thank you for considering what I offered. It is the old saying that we always shoot the Messenger

Baha'u'llah always separates His own self from God. The object of Faith is to embrace the Light of God, that is the desire brought on by Faith

Baha'u'llah submitted his entire will to God and that is how God is manifested through a perfect human. This is the aim of every believer, to reach a level of submission, that they can reflect what the Messengers have shown is possible. Jesus offered this as being born again, born from our flesh tendencies into the potential of the Spirit that is of God.

Baha'u'llah explains the way the Revelation came upon him.

"I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely."

So it was God that bade Baha'u'llah to speak up, Baha'u'llah said if it was up to him he would have never uttered a word.

"Think ye, O people, that I hold within My grasp the control of God’s ultimate Will and Purpose?… Had the ultimate destiny of God’s Faith been in Mine hands, I would have never consented, even though for one moment, to manifest Myself unto you, nor would I have allowed one word to fall from My lips. Of this God Himself is, verily, a witness."

So Baha'u'llah has answered those that say it was self interest or he was a Narcissistic in giving this Revelation,

“Certain ones among you,” He declared, “have said: ‘He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.’ By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs… My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will…. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors….”

No we come to how Baha'u'llah view himself in this quandary, that He as a Manifestation, was given by God the task of delivering a Message to humanity and like the Manifestations of God gone before Him, He becomes both the Voice of God and its human channel.

“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

His level of education is apparent in his writings.
Before you ascribe the universe and stars to God, give evidence of God's existence. Do not just assert.

One thing that cannot be said about Abdul'baha is what you have offered in this reply.

If one takes the time to see how Abdul'baha was seen by those that were not Baha'i, one would soon find they have been most unjust.

He was seen by many and even proved that his knowledge had no boundaries. He spoke to all levels of society and to the scientific community. All those talks were applauded.

There is this article written on some amazing aspects of his knowledge.

https://bahaiteachings.org/series/the-men-who-put-abdul-baha-to-the-test/

Regards Tony

 

[Ahanu]

One thing that cannot be said about Abdul'baha is what you have offered in this reply.

If one takes the time to see how Abdul'baha was seen by those that were not Baha'i, one would soon find they have been most unjust.

He was seen by many and even proved that his knowledge had no boundaries. He spoke to all levels of society and to the scientific community. All those talks were applauded.

There is this article written on some amazing aspects of his knowledge.

https://bahaiteachings.org/abdul-bahas-superhuman-knowledge/

Regards Tony

The reactions from non-Baha'is are interesting. There's an instance where an atheist describes Abdu'l-Baha, saying he was a "dear, kind, and tired old man." He wasn't impressed.

The funniest reactions are from earlier in his life. Abdu'l-Baha wrote the Secret of Divine Civilization anonymously. Some non-Baha'is praised the work, and some of them withdrew their statements once they discovered the identity of the author. I have seen JK Rowling pull the same trick on critics.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The reactions from non-Baha'is are interesting. There's an instance where an atheist describes his meeting with Abdu'l-Baha to be a "dear, kind, and tired old man." He wasn't impressed.

The funniest reactions are from earlier in his life. Abdu'l-Baha wrote the Secret of Divine Civilization anonymously. Some non-Baha'is praised the work, and some of them withdrew their statements once they discovered the identity of the author. I have seen JK Rowling pull the same trick on critics.

Yes indeed that needs to be pointed out, as it would be incorrect to say everyone viewed Abdul'baha in the same light.

Luckily there is now available all the press release clippings from his travels and many eyewitness records of meetings with Abdul'baha.

There were a small minority of comments that were not favourable, as Abdul'baha had talked on challenging subjects to an audience that had set concepts of faith.

I recommend the two Volumes of "The Apostle of Peace" which is a survey of the references to Abdul'baha in the Western Press.

https://www.bahaiblog.net/articles/books/apostle-peace-new-reference-book-abdul-baha/

One thing I was amazed about, was the amount of times Abdul'baha encouraged the Baha'i to adopt Esperanto.

Regards Tony

 

[Longfellow]

I'm posting my reactions here to a post in the thread Reading a paper: Bahá’u’lláh and the Luminous Mind: Bahá’í Gloss on a Buddhist Puzzle, because I think Cino would rather focus there on the paper, and this is about Baha'i approaches to other religions.

Some problems that I see sometimes in Baha’i approaches to other religions:
- Misquoting and misunderstanding what Abdu’l-Baha said about the oneness of religion.
- Never questioning the authenticity of something Abdu’l-Baha allegedly said, or their understanding of it.

I’m thinking that grasping at straws and trying to fit round pegs into square holes, trying to find points of agreement between the beliefs and practices of Baha’is and other people, for the sole purpose of validating popular Baha'i thinking about the oneness of religions, is actuality helping to perpetuate and reinforce the lines of alienation that people are drawing in their imaginations between themselves and followers of other religions.

(later) I can see possible value in trying to find points of agreement, but not when the only purpose is to validate popular Baha'i thinking about the oneness of religions, ignoring other people's objections to that or debating with them about it, while at the same time subordinating all other religions to theirs. On the face of it, it looks like saying "All religions are equal, but my religion is more equal than others."

(later) I'm thinking that part of the PR problem for Baha'is might be from misquoting and misunderstanding what Abdu'l-Baha says about the oneness of religion, and thinking that "All religions are one" means "All religions are equal."

(later) I've finished reading the thread about Baha'u'llah and the Luminous Mind. I actually lost interest when I saw the author's stated intentions to try to find similarities between Buddhist beliefs and Baha'i beliefs, for the apologetical purpose of defending popular Baha'i thinking about the oneness of religions, in the face of the yawning gulf between Buddhist beliefs and Baha'i beliefs. Even so, I decided to read the rest of the thread, but I might not follow it any more after this.

 

[Aupmanyav]

A college degree is irrelevant.
"Abbas Effendi’s firm grasp and proficiency in each of the Arabic, Turkish and Persian languages is indeed astonishing."

I understand why you would say that, because both, Bahaollah and Abdul Baha, had no college education, knew nothing of science of their day.
That is all he knew other than readings of Torah, Injeel and Quran.

https://bahaiteachings.org/series/the-men-who-put-abdul-baha-to-the-test/

Not interested in your propaganda material.

 

[Ahanu]

Some problems that I see sometimes in Baha’i approaches to other religions:
- Misquoting and misunderstanding what Abdu’l-Baha said about the oneness of religion.

Anybody can misquote and misunderstand. We make mistakes.

- Never questioning the authenticity of something Abdu’l-Baha allegedly said, or their understanding of it.

Of course my understanding of what Abdu'l-Baha said could be inaccurate.

I understand an English translation of SAQ could be inaccurate . . . but it seems you're questioning the authenticity of the text itself?

I’m thinking that grasping at straws and trying to fit round pegs into square holes,

False analogy in my opinion.

Buddhism is a vast religion. It cannot be dumbed down to one shape; it's more like a pack of wood blocks for kids that comes in all kinds of shapes. Our Theravada friends have invalidated the Mahayana teachings as a collection of inauthentic innovations. I'm sure Mahayanists are not happy about that. But that's Theravada for you. I have met a few. Some talk serious trash about Thich Nhat Hanh, saying he's a false teacher, for example.

trying to find points of agreement between the beliefs and practices of Baha’is and other people, for the sole purpose of validating popular Baha'i thinking about the oneness of religions, is actuality helping to perpetuate and reinforce the lines of alienation that people are drawing in their imaginations between themselves and followers of other religions.

Well, as they say, a friend to all is a friend to none. Some people are going to feel alienated no matter how you approach the issue at hand. Even Thich Nhat Hanh alienated some people. As I have previously stated, Buddha may have been silent on the issue of ultimate reality. It's a different religious stream. That doesn't negate the oneness of religion at all in my understanding.

(later) I can see possible value in trying to find points of agreement, but not when the only purpose is to validate popular Baha'i thinking about the oneness of religions, ignoring other people's objections to that or debating with them about it, while at the same time subordinating all other religions to theirs. On the face of it, it looks like saying "All religions are equal, but my religion is more equal than others."

All religions are definitely not equal in truth.

 

[Longfellow]

Ahanu, I'm not questioning the authenticity of the notes in Persian from "Some Answered Questions."

I'm responding here to your post in the other thread, because I don't want to distract from Cina's comments on the paper.

I assume you're referring to the author's quote in his paper where he quotes the statement that Buddha "established the oneness of God."

Yes.

By the way, would you mind sharing why you think there's a possibility Abdu'l-Baha "never actually said that?"

In my searches, I didn't find any authentication for the English translation of "Some Answered Questions."

​

Also, let's consider the possibility he never said it. Why does it matter?

Because it's used as a reason for stubbornly insisting that some Buddhists are wrong in thinking that Buddha never taught any concept of God that Baha'is can say agrees with their own, to deny or discount what most people consider as an essential and fundamental difference in beliefs between Buddhists and Baha'is. All that for the sole purpose of validating their understanding of what Abdu'l-Baha said about the oneness of religion, without ever questioning that understanding.

 

[Ahanu]

In my searches, I didn't find any authentication for the English translation of "Some Answered Questions."

What do you think about the Persian text then?

At the completion of the selection and revision process, three different first editions of Some Answered Questions were released by major publishing houses in 1908: the original Persian text by E. J. Brill in Holland; Miss Barney’s English translation by Kegan Paul, Trench, Trübner & Co. in London; and a French translation by Hippolyte Dreyfus (whom Miss Barney later married) by Ernest Leroux in Paris.
(Some Answered Questions)
www.bahai.org/r/700886751​

 

[Longfellow]

What do you think about the Persian text then?

I'm not questioning the authenticity of the Persian text. Also, actually I have no objection to what the English text says, even if it isn't authenticated.

I still would like to know if anyone has any other reason besides that quote, from Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha, to think that Buddha taught a concept of God that agrees with the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

(later) I actually think that what is known about Buddha's teachings about God agrees with Baha'u'llah's, but not in the way that I've seen people saying they do.

 

[RJM]

Jesus was born without sin, and forgave sin. Baha'u'llah claims not just to be the messenger of God's word to man, but in himself to be the return of the Christ. It's not hard to see the problem, imo ..

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Jesus was born without sin, and forgave sin. Baha'u'llah claims not just to be the messenger of God's word to man, but in himself to be the return of the Christ. It's not hard to see the problem, imo ..

Are you attempting to start a thread about how people reject a Messeger in simple terms?

Did not the Jews accuse Jesus in much the same manner and want to stone him for Blasphemy?

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Are you attempting to start a thread about how people reject a Messeger in simple terms?

Did not the Jews accuse Jesus in much the same manner and want to stone him for Blasphemy?

Regards Tony

Was Baha'u'llah born without sin? Does he forgive sin?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Did not the Jews accuse Jesus in much the same manner and want to stone him for Blasphemy?

There is no blasphemy involved. The issue is plagiarism. Perhaps Moses plagiarized Avesta, Jesus plagiarized Torah, Mohammad plagiarized Torah and Bible, and Bahaollah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad plagiarized all. All claimants of "Godhood" or special status with "God" initially face persecution - God / God's son / God's nephew / prophets / messengers / manifestations / mahdis. That is the price of being a 'claimant'. Some have the luck to succeed, for some success comes after they die, some loose their legacy to others, most fail. It is all a matter of chance and probability. Had Ottoman's accepted Bahaiism (like Constantine accepted Christianity), it would have been a major religion by now. Christians and Islam did it the hard way, fighting wars, subduing people.