When interpretations go beyond the text

[moralorel]

If I may. As pertains to diverse perspectives,the date for the Epic of Gilgamesh preceded the similar Noah story .

We had a lengthy discussion about this under the Adam Myth thread. Feel free to read it. Your statement is missing some key facts.

 

[QuietPeace]

We had a lengthy discussion about this under the Adam Myth thread. Feel free to read it. Your statement is missing some key facts.

Please elaborate here .As I think it will assist to further this thread discussion.

 

[remembrance univere]

.

i understand that Muslims sincerely feel that Mohammad was a genuine " Prophet " but if the Arabs around Mohammad had access to Jewish and Christian texts of the Bible then how is this revelation and prophecy but this seems completely absurd make this claim


Islam goes through this entire process - of "" Re - Processing "" all of this information from the Bible through another spiritual entity called " Gee - briel “ an angel “ and Mohamud is making the claim that all of this information was already written down and with them in the very same exact land where they lived. in Torah and Gospels -

as an already existing written book and an existing faith that was vindicating Islam


MOAHMMAUD HAD THE TORAH AND GOSPELS WITH HIM - all around him - in the very land where he lived, he spoke to Jews and Christians he had opportunity to literally handle and hold a Bible - and he even held the Torah in his very hands and visited often with the Jews discussing their faith.

and yet, his followers go around scrawling and scratching and etching on leaves, bark, wood and sticks, and rocks and skins, something that was already supposed to be already written down and kept preserved in the same exact area where they lived.

How is this something revelatory or prophetic as "" revelations, "" to repeat stories and repeat and recite passages of a book that already supposedly already exists and is well known and spread to hundreds or even thousands or people
- just a few miles away from Mohamud's very doorstep ?

this is revelation from a prophet ?

this is completely foolishness

this very reality is what Muslims completely ignore, the fact that this behavior is not revelation and is not prophecy but simply the creative works of Mohammad and his story time research team re -creating random stories and repeating things that they already have access to and already have learned from Jews and Christians around them,

are we to believe that Mohammad was sent to the Christians and Jews to discuss their faith and research and learn details about their faith but because of the mere fact that he could not read and had mild to severe mental problems and battles with witchcraft and spells and forgot or confused everything he learned and repeated

- this somehow makes him a prophet to contact some spiritual identity - to tell them and remind them what a book says that already exists all around them - just a few miles from their doorstep.

at best could we say that Mohammad and his companions were just simply translators who had very limited writing material but because they managed to remember so much information this makes it all a revelation and prophecy ... ?

 

[Thomas]

.i understand that Muslims sincerely feel that Mohammad was a genuine " Prophet " but if the Arabs around Mohammad had access to Jewish and Christian texts of the Bible then how is this revelation and prophecy but this seems completely absurd make this claim

Whoa, steady on!

Before going further, can I point out a couple of items from our Code of Conduct:

Interfaith.org seeks to fulfil a mission of interfaith dialogue and exploration of others' beliefs while being a place to discuss the intricacies of our own belief in a safe format.

In light of that:
Please respect other members and avoid making posts that may be seen as personally offensive. We don’t allow flame wars here.

We do not allow IO to be used either as a soapbox to aggressively promote any faith or political view, or see any faith or political view to be aggressively attacked.

I would ask you to bear that in mind, as your post does seem to be soap-boxing and quite aggressively attacking the Islamic Faith.

Islam goes through this entire process - of "" Re - Processing "" all of this information from the Bible through another spiritual entity called " Gee - briel “ an angel “ and Mohamud is making the claim that all of this information was already written down and with them in the very same exact land where they lived. in Torah and Gospels -

Well, as a Christian, I would point out that the same spiritual entity, whom we know in English as Gabriel, Islam knows in Arabic as Jibril – both names being derived from the Hebrew.

as an already existing written book and an existing faith that was vindicating Islam

Much like Christ. Matthew spends his entire Gospel arguing that Jesus is the Messiach the Jews have been waiting for. All the New Testament does that, really.

and yet, his followers go around scrawling and scratching and etching on leaves, bark, wood and sticks, and rocks and skins ...

As did Jews, as did Christians, as did everyone, before the invention of printing – you seem to be offending everyone here?

How is this something revelatory or prophetic as "" revelations, "" to repeat stories and repeat and recite passages of a book that already supposedly already exists and is well known and spread to hundreds or even thousands or people
- just a few miles away from Mohamud's very doorstep ?

I know! How is the Christian Book of Revelations not seen for what it is, Jewish apocalyptic books repurposed for a Christian audience?

this is revelation from a prophet ?

Well many, many important Christians thought the Book of Revelations should not have been counted as canonical.

this is completely foolishness

What is foolishness in the eyes of men is often wisdom .... 1 Corinthians 3:19.

+++

The point is, a Jew could have written exactly what you write, but be talking to Christians – maybe they're your next target after this tirade against Islam?

Had someone done so, as a Christian, I would have stepped up and defended my faith. In light of that, I feel honour bound to step and and defend another's right to believe what they believe.

+++

If you want to understand why Muslims believe as they do, perhaps ask them, although I might suggest you be a tad more polite about it?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I understand that Muslims sincerely feel that Mohammad was a genuine " Prophet "

So do the Bahai', may Allah bless us all with acceptance of Muhammad as the seal of the Prophets (Peace be upon Him)

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

.MOAHMMAUD HAD THE TORAH AND GOSPELS WITH HIM - all around him - in the very land where he lived..

Really?
As far as I'm aware, Muhammad lived in a small village in Arabia, miles away from civilisation.
Life was extremely difficult, primarily living on dates and sheep's milk.
Muhammad, peace be with him, had no formal eduction, and didn't read and write.

..he spoke to Jews and Christians he had opportunity to literally handle and hold a Bible..

I believe he did come upon Christians on a visit to Syria .. but he couldn't read.

this is revelation from a prophet ?

The Qur'an is a revelation from G-d, dictated to Muhammad through Angel Gabriel, yes.

..at best could we say that Mohammad and his companions were just simply translators who had very limited writing material but because they managed to remember so much information this makes it all a revelation and prophecy ... ?

No .. is there something in particular in the Qur'an that you do not like?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

.

thanks for replying to my comment and i appreciate the opportunity to discuss this

but the truth is very simple

Me disliking or liking the Quran has no basic on the facts of history and the contents of the Quran !


I believe it is the complete reversal, whereupon Muslims themselves have many things about the Torah and Jewish peoples themselves that Muslims absolutely do not like and Muslims are incapable of providing a single shred of evidence whatsoever that demonstrates that the Jews where Mohammed lived were in any conflict or disagreement with the core principle, foundational teachings and basic tenants of religious observance, practice and oracles of God within the very Quran.

in fact, the Jews did not reject Mohammed’s core basic message about God’s laws,

the jews did not disagree with Mohammed about the oneness of God =

the jews did not disagree with anything regarding the moral code of God and his laws about idols and sin and the commandments of God.


the jews around Mohammed believed that God was one single God –

the jews did not worship idols and other God’ s –

in fact the jews around Mohammed - they rejected that jesus was the son of God, the jews accepted every single last commandment that Mohammed concluded about basic critical laws of God

Mohammed mentions nothing about moral or law disagreements that he had with the jews,

the jews around Mohammed - are not shown to have disagreed with Mohammed concerning the Quran or concerning commandment and every single critical core and basic law and ordinance of God that Mohammed eventually decided - the jews obeyed and believed.



the Jews did not disagree with Mohammed upon basic principles regarding idols, adultery, murder, theft, the trinity, Sabbath, the oneness of God, the moral obligations of a faith.

in Fact - The Jews held to even a much stricter law and teaching about not divorcing your wife for no just cause or good reason

the jews accepted every single last basic core and basic commandment that Mohammed concluded about basic critical laws of God -

Mohammed mentions nothing whatsoever about morality or Godly law disagreements that he had with the jews



all of the basic principles regarding animal sacrifices, circumcision, idols, adultery, murder, theft, the trinity, sabbath, the oneness of God, even the simple basic moral obligations of justice and morals, all these basic important principles in Islam that the Quran teaches

☞ the Jews themselves also believed perfectly.

The Old Testament still today - holds the same teachings about - animal sacrifices, circumcision, idols, adultery, murder, theft, the sabbath, the oneness of God.

THIS IS VERY TELLING FACT THAT MUSLIMS DISREGARD CONCERNING WHY MOHAMMAD AND THE MUSLIMS AROUND HIM DISLIKED AND HELD GREAT GREAT DISTAIN FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE


1. Muslims fail to point to a single passage of the Quran and show anything that the Jews of the 7 th century were doing in their current scriptures nor in their relationship with God that was against the Quran.


2. Muslims fail to show a single instance where any Jew held a single disagreement with Mohammad concerning every single last critical core and basic law and ordinance of God that Mohammed eventually decided



- the jews obeyed and believed = Yet - Mohammud - demands that the jews are the worst creatures that have ever existed on the planet.


this all seems proven to be simply a personal dislike a personal grievance, offence and resentment for the racial personality and existence of the Hebrew people - Muslims dislike something about the Jewish people

Can Muslims can produce a single example of where the jews around Mohammud failed to accept the basic core laws of God or failed to believe and accept in the moral code of every single last thing in the Quran concerning critical laws and faith ?> ?

no, Muslims cannot



was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not buy and sell slaves and participate in the slave trade ?

was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not capture women and enslave them and and have sexual intercourse with these slaves without a condition of mutual love and and full agreement of marriage ?

was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews because - the Jews did not practice temporary short term " MUTTAH " marriages just for a few hours or days of sexual gratification ?

was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not teach that divorce for any reason was justified in the eyes of God ?

was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not beat their wives when their wives disobeyed their husbands sexual demands and ?


The Quran condemns and vilifies the Jew, calling them as apes, monkeys and the very lowest and most horrible of all the creatures upon the earth.

the Jew are the very lowest of all creatures. ↩

“Judgement Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jew. The Jew will hide behind the stones and the trees, and the stones and the trees will say, oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew hiding behind me — come and kill him.”

Al-Bukhari, Fath-ul-Bari, no. 3593 and 2925; Muslim, nos. 2921 and 2922; and Al-Tirmidhi, Al-Jami’, no. 2237.
Al-Bukhari, Sahih, Book on merits and virtues, no. 2593; Muslim, Sahih, Book on trials and signs of the Hour, no. 2921; Al-Tirmidhy, Sunan, Book on trials, no. 2236; and Ahmad, vol. 2, p. 135.

Imam Ahmad, vol. 2, p. 67, vol. 3, p. 119, and vol. 4, p. 338; 122, 131, 149, 398, 417, and 530, and vol. 4, p. 217
and Ibn Majah, no. 4128


Quran 4.46 Of those who are Jew ......... Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.

Quran 27.76 Surely this Quran declares to the children of Israel most of what they differ in.

Quran 17.4 And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence.

Quran 5.51 O you who believe! do not take the Jew and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Quran 5.41 their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jew; ...........they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.


in conclusion

if this was just a simple matter of a problem that Mohammad had with a single specific Jewish leader or a specific individual or a group of Jews it would be understandable

but there is nothing in the Quran that disagrees with the Old Testament concerning critical necessary and basic core moral code -

every single commandment and every single critical core and basic law and ordinance of God that Mohammud eventually decided the Old Testament still today holds these same exact teachings .....


this dislike for the Jews and the Old Testament goes beyond critical disagreement and is a dislike that Muslims have simply because the Jews are not Arabs and do not unite with Arabs racially and politicaly.


this is the fact. - Muslims Islamic religion is a process where Muslims attempt to set a political and religious trap to ensnare Jews in fiction, contradiction and deceptive snares that are not a part of the Quran nor historical data.

I see there can be no thanks for that rubbish filled post. Looks like cut and paste materials from hate sourced rubbish.

So much of it is ludicrous.

Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

...this dislike for the Jews and the Old Testament goes beyond critical disagreement and is a dislike that Muslims have simply because the Jews are not Arabs and do not unite with Arabs racially and politicaly.

That makes no sense. What is an Arab? What is a Jew?
You appear to be mixing up religion with race.

I am an Englishman living in the UK. I was raised as a Christian.
My mother was a Christian, and didn't like lies. Nor do I.

Abraham had two sons .. Isaac and Ishmael.
They were both blessed by G-d, and from their seed has "sprung two nations".
The Israelites, and the Arabs. They both have their prophets .. Moses and Muhammad.

Clearly, they don't get along with each other very well.
..a bit like Abel and Cain .. one of them seems to be envious of the other.

 

[Thomas]

but there is nothing in the Quran that disagrees with the Old Testament concerning critical necessary and basic core moral code -

No, but there are significant and fundamental differences of belief.

every single commandment and every single critical core and basic law and ordinance of God that Mohammud eventually decided the Old Testament still today holds these same exact teachings .....

Well that depends on what one treats as 'core'.

this is the fact. - Muslims Islamic religion is a process where Muslims attempt to set a political and religious trap to ensnare Jews in fiction, contradiction and deceptive snares that are not a part of the Quran nor historical data.

Well, that's an opinion, not an indisputable fact. It might seem that way to you, but others might see it differently.

 

[wil]

Well, that's an opinion, not an indisputable fact. It might seem that way to you, but others might see it differently.

A. Religions are replete with disputable "facts" that is why they call it belief and why you have to have faith eh?

B. Thousands of varieties of religion "others may see it differently is an indisputable fact.

C. And then since the title is interpretations beyond the text...me thinks it is expected but...

D. This is still an interfaith site and variance from the norm AND a modicum of decorum regarding our differences is "expected from all...lastly

E. you can call me "pot"

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

A. Religions are replete with disputable "facts" that is why they call it belief and why you have to have faith eh?

When God give a Message, it is the truth, it is indisputable.

The disputes, all of them, are ours to own, as they one and all, stem from our baser ungodly self.

Regards Tony

 

[wil]

When God give a Message, it is the truth, it is indisputable.

The disputes, all of them, are ours to own, as they one and all, stem from our baser ungodly self.

Regards Tony

Totally disputtable...and hilarious.

You are acting like a bowling pin...set up to be knocked down.

I would not say this to a new comer or a struggling believer..

But you ask for it brother.

And yeah, this does come from my baser ungodly self.

You be still and know the I AM G!d.

regards...lol.

(Note: if you said you disagree, but you have another viewpoint....inwould have given your reply and interfaith like...but you chose to stand up and denigrate all those who claim bahai...sad to me)

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Totally disputtable...and hilarious.

You are acting like a bowling pin...set up to be knocked down.

I would not say this to a new comer or a struggling believer..

But you ask for it brother.

And yeah, this does come from my baser ungodly self.

You be still and know the I AM G!d.

regards...lol.

(Note: if you said you disagree, but you have another viewpoint....inwould have given your reply and interfaith like...but you chose to stand up and denigrate all those who claim bahai...sad to me)

That statement was for all G-d given faiths. I did not make it Baha'i. That's your interpretation, your dispute to own.

In evey age G-d has given a message, the rejection of the Message is only because of our own selves. Our subsequent failure to live together according to the standards, is our failure to own.

Regards Tony

 

[remembrance univere]

No, but there are significant and fundamental differences of belief.

Well that depends on what one treats as 'core'.

thank you Thomas and all others who took valuable time to reply to my comment I understand what you are saying.

I am trying to say that the undeniable fact is that basic crucial and core foundational and most critical laws of obligations and devotion, worship, loyalty and honor and faith to God within the Bible itself as it existed then were not contradicted by the Quran in any way shape or form whatsoever.

the Quran, as it is written today is perfectly content and completely pleased with the Bible as it was in its state at the time of Mohammad


Mohammad was perfectly content and completely pleased with the Jews regarding basic crucial, core foundational and the critical laws of obligations, devotion, worship, loyalty and honor and faith to God

Mohammad mentions nothing of the Jews of his day living in a manner that was contrary to the Quran nor the Torah,

IN FACT, MOHAMMAD DID EVERYTHING HE COULD TO ENQUIRE OF THE JEWS CONCERNING SPIRITUAL ADVICE


Muhammad interacted directly in person with Jewish tribes in Medina

meeting them in person himself !


Muhammad engaged in theological discussions regarding their scriptures
Muhammad regarded the Jews as "People of the Book"
Muhammad discussed with the Jews about their scriptures
Muhammad acknowledged their Torah as truth and Godly scripture.

Muhammad even adopted certain practices and traditions in common with the Jews regarding their scriptures


REGARDING = the fundamentals

basic, crucial, core, foundational critical laws of obligations, devotion, worship, loyalty and honor and faith to God


Mohammad never mentioned a single word as disputed argument

Mohammad never mentioned a single word as contradiction from the Jewish people themselves in the time he lived.


meaning = neither Mohamud nor the Quran mentions a single disagreement with the Bible or Jews that Mohammad himself had met with concerning worship and honor and duty and obligation to serving and obeying God.

this simply is not the message of the Quran,

Yet the Quran still vilifies and denounces the Jews and curses them as evil simply for their doubt concerning the spiritual inspiration upon Mohammad himself.......


.......neither in the lifestyle, morality or the loyalty of the Jews in their obligations to worship and honor to God.

........nor in the way the Torah was written at the time


the Quran does not find fault with the Jews over their relationship with God but vilifies them for their inability to merge and unite with Mohammad in his personal tribal warfare .

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the Quran still vilifies and denounces the Jews and curses them as evil simply for their doubt concerning the spiritual inspiration upon Mohammad himself.......

False .. G-d is warning us in the Qur'an as what not to do .. it applies to all of us.

In fact, there is a hadith in which Muhammad(peace be with him) says "The Muslim nation will follow the Christians and Jews, so much so, that if they crawled into the home of a lizard, they will follow them in there".

 

[Thomas]

I am trying to say that the undeniable fact is that basic crucial and core foundational and most critical laws of obligations and devotion, worship, loyalty and honor and faith to God within the Bible itself as it existed then were not contradicted by the Quran in any way shape or form whatsoever.

This is a broad-ranging statement, and raises a number of points:

One: we could discuss what you cover by 'basic crucial' and 'core foundational' texts are, as you have not clarified them.

Two: In like manner, 'most critical laws ... ' could cover a multitude of sins. I think a Jew would reasonably ask on what basis the Quran abrogates any critical law?

Three: Muhammad and the Islamic community clearly enjoyed cordial relations with their Jewish neighbours. It rather seems that a particular Jewish tribe joined an Arab attack on the Muslims in Medina, and that rather altered things locally ...

Four: and most importantly, whilst you talk about what Jews, Christians and others 'of the Book' hold in common, you have not addressed the particulars of their faiths that stand as 'non-negotiable' in relation to their dealings with other faiths.

Mohammad never mentioned a single word as disputed argument

That's not the case at all.

Please check your sources – Muhammad did dispute with the Jews on a number of theological issues, and those disputes became increasingly acrimonious.

The Jews, on sound biblical principle, refused to accept him as a prophet, and refused to accept his interpretation of the Torah. Failing to acknowledge him as the Prophet and the Quran as Revelation, Muhammad's view shifted from one of accommodation to increasing severe condemnation. He accused the Jews of false interpretations, if not actual alteration of their Scriptures, of the Jews of Medina he regarded as breaking the covenant between God and Israel.

Critiques of Jews, Christians and others were largely determined by local interactions with those communities. The Quran always holds out that the People of the Book are welcome and in a sense 'on the road' to becoming fully Muslim, but this requires the acknowledgement on their part that Islam is the final, complete and only entirely-authentic transmission of revelation.

 

[moralorel]

Please elaborate here .As I think it will assist to further this thread discussion.

The Adamic Myth

There is nothing wrong with interpreting the Eden narrative as told in Genesis 2-3 as the story of a good God and an errant humanity. Thus the myth offers us the origin of the relation between Creator and creature, the transgression, its – for humanity – tragic consequence, and indeed lays the...

www.interfaith.org

Thomas and I had a long discussion about this matter. Feel free to read the thread and add any comments. We both provided some points you might want to consider.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

.

This is a very important topic for me personally,

I would think from all of our backgrounds and upbringings and environment someday we would want to at least have the honesty and even the ability to study the Scriptures of any Ancient text and read and understand these text for what they truly say and mean in their original context.

We can see that with the world of Islam the Muslim Community for 1500 years have never taken any opportunity to translate the Torah and Gospels into Arabic. Muslims worldwide strictly and completely and wholly rely completely upon Trinitarians to understand the Torah and Gospels.

I mention this fact because what if the Muslim Community themselves decided to take some initiative or responsibility to translate the Bible into Arabic instead of allowing the Trinitarian Religious Community to dictate and decide for Muslims what the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts truly say - in their original meaning, context and language.

i think this really says a lot about where Muslims are spiritually andshows their real intentions in that they have had 1500 years to translate the Torah and Gospels yet they build their faith and all intellectual defenses against the Bible entirely and completely based upon what Trinitarians tell Muslims is contained in the Bible - instead of translating the Bible themselves.

similarly we remember Constantine of Rome


History tells us that Constantine likely , possibly, maybe knew some Greek, ? ?

also history explains that Constantine - used an interpreter to speak with Greek-speaking bishops at the Council of Nicaea.


He also composed sermons in Latin and had them professionally translated into Greek, it was not until nearly 100 years later that Jerome the Roman Catholic Translator finished his Translation in around - 414 AD - nearly 100 years after the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD,

these individuals who gathered together at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD most of the leaders and rulers making the final decisions were unable to speak Greek


Imagine the group of individuals there at the Council of Nicaea, most of them including Constantine could not even speak or read Greek or Hebrew, everything they discussed about the Scriptures had to be translated to them by translators who could speak and read Greek.

Sounds like a mass of confusion and manipulation

one would think that if the individuals who gathered together at the Council of Nicaea were going to make important decisions about faith they would at least have translated the Bible into a language they spoke and understood -

- instead everything they were discussing would not be completely translated into their language until nearly 100 years later

the rest of the New Testament into Latin would not be completed until nearly 100 years after the Council of Nicaea

Fourteen years were spent in reading and checking the innumerable texts in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew

the the Council of Nicaea and the Latin Bible Translation are 89 years apart , !!

The Roman Catholic Church under Constantine were not Greek Speakers.

The Catholic Church waited for nearly 500 years to translate and distribute a 500 year old ancient book to Latin Speaking people.

Instead what Rome did for the first 500 years after Jesus Christ - was gather together - other men's writings.


the writings of other men, the scribbling and writings the dooldings, scratching and etching and drawings of other men's writings of moment. - the church fathers.

I have some doubts on your claim that Constantine didn't speak Greek, as he originated from Anatolia where the Greek was the common language.
Jerome was not the first who translated the Bible into Latin, but he was the first who used the Hebrew sources for the Tang (Old Testament to Christians). But I don't want to dig too deeply into discussions between Christians.


I have recently published a preliminary Islamic Gospel edition in English online. My primary scope is to offer a means to my brothers and sisters in faith to understand what we know about Jesu (p.b.u.h) with a critical view on the reliability of the texts, but not for proving that the texts are not reliable, but rather to peel out the original Message from him.
The fact that no Islamic author has translated the Bible is based on the fact that important scholars in early Islam rejected using the Bible for lack of reliability, whereas I have the impression that this doesn't correspond to the message we read in the Quran.

 

[RabbiO]

I have some doubts on your claim that Constantine didn't speak Greek, as he originated from Anatolia where the Greek was the common language.
Jerome was not the first who translated the Bible into Latin, but he was the first who used the Hebrew sources for the Tang (Old Testament to Christians).

I have never heard the Hebrew scripture referred to as Tang. What language is that?

 

[talib-al-kalim]

I have never heard the Hebrew scripture referred to as Tang. What language is that?

That's automated correction. I had typed Tanach