Ethical Atheist vs believer in God

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I could imagine no religion, but it's a moot point really. Religion exists and forms the social glue nothing else can duplicate considering the level of development of most people. Only a tiny few ever reach the level of true thought, and there are those who make a compelling case that even that never happens. Religion is a form in which much is expressed both noble and ignoble, sometimes within the same person. It is only a venue, a scary story to keep the simple in line, and a vehicle toward enlightenment for the thoughtful. Some use it to garner power and control. The atheist says "enough!" and throws it all away to face life naked, without the filters and comforts of the ancient mythology.

Perhaps, in time there will arise a body of thought that while seeing the value of all the other memes (or value systems) seeks to move beyond them.
 
In the mean-time I'll just stand naked in front of you.

Take a picture. It'll last longer.
 
I mean, if I didn't have my wwswd bracelet, I would have nothing to believe in!
 
Sigourney Weaver?

Steve Wozniak!

Stevie Wonder?

Simon Wiesenthal?

Sir Thomas Francis Wade? ( I know. That's cheating.)

Sam Waksal?

Selman Waksman?

Walafrid Strabo? That's it I bet! It's Walafrid Strabo!
 
Who the heck is Simone Welt?

Oh, don't bother. I'm tech savvy. I'll google him.
 
citizenzen said:
As a Buddhist and an atheist I have some quibbles with the quote above. I don't want to "teach" anybody anything. The best thing that I can do is learn as much as possible.

If I learn well and conduct myself accordingly, there is a small chance that during normal social interaction I might inspire someone. But those moments are unpredictable and best accepted as such. The moment I purposely seek to teach somebody is the moment I become a bore.
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I'm sorry, who is going to teach "YOU"?

Your arguement needs work.

v/r

Q
 
citizenzen said:
Who the heck is Simone Welt?

Oh, don't bother. I'm tech savvy. I'll google him.
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You funny guy!

(psst! Its a she not a he, last name is really weil. See, as long as I put things in parentheses only you can see it.) :D
 
Tao_Equus said:
We live in a time of unparalleled originality......95% of it by atheists. Religions try to tie us in a very real bondage to ancient dogmas that lead us to a deep seated acceptance of religious stereotypes of ultimate benefactor/judger mindset. An easy sell since it is the norm in every family since before we were humans Religions, as institutions, are really no more than businesses built on that, that have the privilege of tax exemption. All the 'personal' faith I see is down to this factor and starkly Freudian biological motivations. It seems I have completed my transition from the limitlessness of Jungian possibility to the cool alloy of atheist alchemy that really works. Base biology really. Religion is a comfort zone where people retreat to handle the pressure of life. The harder the life, the more you need that retreat. In a sense my atheism is the product of affluence. But since it is the atheist scientists that really float my boat, and they made my affluence possible, I make no apology. (Even if I am acutely aware that my affluence has a hugely negative impact on people around the world that in effect subsidise that affluence :( ) The Ancient Greek thinkers maybe borrowed from Vedic, Chinese or a hitherto unknown philosophy, and that knowledge was lost and found a couple of times before it was allowed to burn at full brightness..... Our great grandfathers rediscovered it and made it blossom. An Industrial revolution, followed by a technological one in close succession. Perhaps we will yet again take a break, maybe even descend into dogma inspired megadeath. But what has been established is a seed of truth so profound that it must have its day. Maybe it will lay in storage for 1000 years but it will one day be picked up and will with sheer logic blast our old superstitions to dust once and for all. And with it all the economic 'big boss' businesses that use the same modus. I can but dream.

趁熱打鐵
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You make very valid and interesting points. However many but not all of these great pioneers in science, technology and philosophy had a love for the abrahamic God and that might have even motivated them.
 
Nick_A said:
A good description of cave life. Teachers teach what is considered uselful to adapt of cave life which for us is the "world." However teachers that are able to teach how to leave the restrictions of the cave are very rare.
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Not really - seeing outside of the cave is merely a state of mind.

Using the analogy, you cannot teach someone what is outside of the cave because everything becomes inevitably reduced to anthropomorphic and social idioms in the explanation.

In which case, awareness of the state of mind and recognising it are perhaps all that can be taught - and I'm not sure even Zen can teach that. :)

To really see takes a really open mind, and that's not something I think can be taught.

But in that state of receptiveness - all the universe can be visible, and in that, be a teacher.

And even without it - insight comes from observation - it's easy to try and observe, but precious few try do. As a social ape, our species easily delegates and observes authority, rather than self-seeking.

2c somewhat long-winded 2c. :)
 
I said:
Not really - seeing outside of the cave is merely a state of mind.

Using the analogy, you cannot teach someone what is outside of the cave because everything becomes inevitably reduced to anthropomorphic and social idioms in the explanation.

In which case, awareness of the state of mind and recognising it are perhaps all that can be taught - and I'm not sure even Zen can teach that. :)

To really see takes a really open mind, and that's not something I think can be taught.

But in that state of receptiveness - all the universe can be visible, and in that, be a teacher.

And even without it - insight comes from observation - it's easy to try and observe, but precious few try do. As a social ape, our species easily delegates and observes authority, rather than self-seeking.

2c somewhat long-winded 2c. :)
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The universe is our teacher. The problem is that we interpret it from the cave perspective.

It is one thing to imagine life outside the cave from the perspective of within the cave and another to speak of leaving the cave. All this imagining is normal for New Age thought from within the cave. The practice of leaving the cave requires being open to the ancient idea of being willing to sacrifice imagination rather than enhance it which is why it is so rare.

Sin is sometimes defined as "missing the mark." Our imagination tends to follow the cycles or turn in circles. So if the aim is leaving the cave, turning in circles doesn't allow it so we miss the mark.

It is like shooting an arrow at a target. To hit the mark we have to compensate for the effects of the arrow gradually changing direction. How then to consciously stay on target when our psychology wants to change direction so as to feel good? A good teacher allows the student to stay on target so as to hit the mark, or in this case, acquire a human perspective not limited to the conditionings of cave life.
 
Nick_A said:
It is like shooting an arrow at a target. To hit the mark we have to compensate for the effects of the arrow gradually changing direction. How then to consciously stay on target when our psychology wants to change direction so as to feel good? A good teacher allows the student to stay on target so as to hit the mark, or in this case, acquire a human perspective not limited to the conditionings of cave life.
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Hitting a golf ball well is a very difficult skill. for the last 30 years I've regularly gone down to the driving range and developed a good swing. I could have hired an instructor and perhaps cut that time in half or even less.

But what is the point? There's no race to acquiring a good swing. There's no point in which I could say, "I have perfected my swing. Now I never have to practice again."

Just being outside and moving my body around is enough. Being patient with one's results even when that includes weak slices that barely go 100 yards is enough. Learning that smashing a 300 yard drive—that causes the person next to you to gasp in amazement—doesn't make you superior is enough. Realizing that as you age your swing constantly evolves and the learning never ceases is enough.

Nick_A, you seem to be too focused on achieving a goal, reaching some end point that doesn't exist. Talk about running in circles!
 
Philosophy, not religion, is the source of both morality and ethics. Justice is a function of governance. Religion is a primitive social cohesion mechanism which has become redundant and unnecessary in the first world.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Philosophy, not religion, is the source of both morality and ethics. Justice is a function of governance. Religion is a primitive social cohesion mechanism which has become redundant and unnecessary in the first world.

Chris
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Philosophy is an exercise in the abstract, and doesn't care for widows or orphans. Religion is simply an expression of what is inside. Faith is the answer, because we can move mountains with it, or change the world.

(rolling up the sleeves), Hi Chris! :D
 
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