Discussion in 'Christianity' started by soleil10, Jan 3, 2009.
Dream, what is the point you are trying to make ?
I apologize, Soleil10. It is hard for me to get to the point, especially coming from a different perspective. Rev. 12:8, the verse you mentioned that talks about the accuser of the brethren, starts out with "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ..." and I think this verse is about neither past, nor present, nor a future time but about what Jesus means. I think it is really another way of saying what Hebrews 2:14 says "that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" Each Christian has to 'take up' their own cross. Each Christian is crucified with Christ, and I think Revelation, including the part about the accuser, is talking about that. The rest of what I said was an attempt to be open about how I see things in general, so you can see where I'm coming from -- instead of me pretending to share the same perspective -- which is what a troublemaker would do.
Dream, you do not have to apolog, I was just trying to understand your answer to what I was saying. Now I wll read it again knowing what you were trying to accomplish.
I will not accuse you before God. (Just jocking)
Your wrong Soiel10 The God I describe is a God of ALL THINGS. God is responsible for His creation. The bible is full of these scripture. God is the Potter and we are the clay. You and people like you do God an injustice by not allowing God to be all. God is God because He can bring war for divine purpose. Just as when the Isrealites were given the promise land. They had to make war with many trible and God instructed them Not to leave any alive. To KILL everyone. Read the O.T. there's no denieing it. Does this make God cold. NO. God is not human. God can do thing we can not even comperhend. How do you explain God given the Isrealites the promise land and these land were already occupied. God told them how to fight and when to fight. Jerrico is just one city that was destroyed by the Isrealites. So when you say God is not responsible for these thing you are so wrong and must not have read the O.T.
Are you trying to say man is responsible??
I have Scripture, you don't...
Witness No. 1
"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to ACCOUNT."
Witness No. 2
"Now I am saying to you that, for every idle declaration which men shall be speaking they shall be rendering an ACCOUNT concerning it in the day of judging" (Matt. 12:36).
Witness No. 3
"For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God ... Consequently then, each of us shall be giving ACCOUNT concerning himself to God"(Rom. 14:11-12)
ACCOUNT not RESPONSIBILITY!!!
Where did you get this from soleil?? If it was from Scripture, where are the witnesses??? Exactly!!
If you did not get this from Scripture, you could not have gotten this from nowhere...Well?? You got this from man...
...and what does Scripture tell us about man??
Witness No. 1
"Put NOT your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help" (Psalm 146:3).
Witness No. 2
"We must OBEY God rather than men!"(Acts 5:29)
Funny; I was just thinking the exact same thing!
Which is it, Soleil? Is sin our problem, or is it Satan's? Because if Satan is our master, then we sin because we're trying to please him. But if God is our master, we sin when we forget about him. When Paul says that he's a slave to sin, he is not saying that he is a slave to Satan; rather, he begins each letter by stating that he is God's bondservant, yeah?
Read: "with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin."
Sin is not fallen man's nature; it is man's nature, because Adam and Eve both sinned before God's curse, not after it. And what was Satan's big hook that he used to deceive them? He told them that God was lying, and they bought it. Wow, Satan really is a master of deceit! I mean, how does he come up with this stuff? And Eve resisted so much, and tried to overcome so much, and Adam too....
Come on! Satan doesn't compel us to sin; as James wrote, we sin when we allow our own selfish desires to carry us away, and these desires originate within us, not because of Satan. You don't think that given enough time Eve wouldn't have chosen to sin on her own? Give me a break; Satan just expedited the process. People are wicked, plain and simple, and given enough time away from a shepherd we are capable of absolutely anything. The idea that our sins are due to "fallen nature" or to Satan's influence is nothing more than a cop-out.
Funny; I was just thinking the exact same thing! [/quote]
We agree about something.[/quote]
I will take that as an hopeful sign
We are trying to please our fallen nature that we inherited from him.
Goodness also has its laws. For example Goodness teach us to live for the sake of others. The law of sin teach us to be selfish and sacrifice others for ourselves. Both laws are usually opposite of each other. Satan and God are going in opposite directions
Sin are the consequence of our fallen actions (including thoughts)
Of course otherwise, they would not have been chased out ot the garden
The process of the fall is more complex than that. In ant case, God gave A&E a specific commandement about a specific issue. By rejecting God's commandement and believing Lucifer, they put Lucifer in a position of authority over them. Another question is what motivated Lucifer, a good Archangel to loose faith in God, twist God's commandement, mislead Eve and of course why did Eve fell for it.
Everyhing has a cause and a reason
It does not say in the bible how much Eve resisted as well as Adam.
We inherited our fallen nature from Satan. Jesus even said that he was our father. It is in the bible. As his children, we are doing the desire of our father.
The fall of man was a very specific sin with eternal consequences. Also I hope you do not confuse mistakes and sins.
Yes fallen people can be wicked, some more than others. Satan hopes that every one believes what you just wrote. In this way men keep fighting with each other blaming "human nature" while he can hide.
God said in Genesis that what he created was very good. He did not his creation including man was wicked.
If we look at the bible with a fallen man point of view, then we miss God's original plan.
No, actually it is as simple as that, and you're blowing it out of proportion in order to create theology. Adam did not inherit a sinful nature from Satan; he had it in the beginning. The Bible says that God's creation was "very good," but there's a big difference between good and perfect. We are created very good, but not perfect, and that is why we sin.
And it does say exactly how much Eve resisted the serpant: It says that she didn't.
By saying that it's Satan's fault that we are sinners, you are copping out and not accepting responsibility for your own actions. Jesus did not say that Satan is your father, Soleil; he said that to Pharisees. Are you a Pharisee? No? Then Satan is not your father. Jesus said that your father is God-- assuming that you've made Jesus your brother, that is. If you have no faith in Jesus then, yes, by all means make Satan your father. But again, don't paint the rest of us with your brush, because we believe in the LORD and in his Christ.
So a perfect God who is 100% good and Holy created "sinful nature" with sin built in !!! WOW !!!
Lucifer, Eve then Adam fell in that order. The fallen started from Lucifer who became satan
Once again the original sin was not just a learning and growing mistake.
It was the one sin God clearly warned them about because God knows that sin would have huge consequences on the future which it did
What sin can create so much damage ? It was not the eating of an apple.
When God says that what He created is very good, that is impressive. Yes everything go through a growth period. That is quite different than saying that A&E were created with a sinfull nature. They had their original nature that became fallen nature after the human fall.
I have never said that. I have always said that man has his portion of responsibility for the good or the bad. Man has to regain his position over Satan because we (A&E) put him in that position of authority. God will not do it for us.
Jesus said we are both. Believing in Christ does not mean that we do not commit any more sins. This means that satan still has some power on us individually like with the Pharisees.
Saint Paul made it clear that in his own life he was struglling with this same dillema despite his incredible faith in Jesus.
And once again an appeal to emotions instead of reason. "!!! WOW !!!" ? Gimme a break.
You might be a robot, but I'm not. I get to make choices for myself, and when I choose to sin, then it is my fault. You want to blame it on Satan? Go right ahead, dear. But keep in mind that Jesus is going to separate us into two groups at the end: sheep and goats. The sheep are the ones whose father is God. The goats are the ones who did not accept God as their father. There is no middle ground; there is no category for people who are sometimes God's children, and sometimes Satan's children. And as Jesus said, those who accept that their sins are their own fault and repent from them and ask for forgiveness, will be forgiven. And those who prefer to put the responsibility on their so-called fallen nature (which amounts to saying it's not their fault, but rather Satan's fault, or Adam & Eve's fault, or God's fault for putting the tree of knowledge there in the first place) will probably not be forgiven, because they won't really think they themselves have sinned.
!!! WOW !!!
...said the five virgins as the doors shut on them.
I do not know why you would say that
I do not know whay you would say that too
You are stonger than all the saints that ever walked on the face of the earth.
I am not just blaming it on Satan. We have our portion of responsibility and are responsible for our sins.
I understand, there is a difference between someone that categorically reject God but even those that believe in God, we all acts sometimes as God's children or sometimes asSatan's children. We are quite unreliable
Yes, it is good to sincerelly repent and repair the wrong we have done.
That is not what I wrote, ever. We need to overcome our fallen nature and follow Jesus' example.
What I said is that only the Messiah can uproot the original sin and start a Godly family completel separated from Satan to whom all fallen men can connect.
God's purpose for his creation is to create ideal families. The 3 blessings He gave to A&E in genesis were not fulfilled. The first family failed but God's purpose has not changed.
For this reason Jesus came as the second Adam.
The reason why I have been saying these things, Soleil, is because I disagree with the gospel that you have been, in a sense, preaching. I disagree with it, because it is not the gospel of Jesus Christ; it is something of your own creation. It is a gospel of self-righteousness, where our goal is to live successfully apart from God. It is a gospel where Jesus is an example, and not a saviour. It is a gospel where forgiveness is secondary to a person's righteous works. It is a gospel where God's powers are limited to what human beings can see and understand. It is a gospel in which Satan is equal in power to God, the Holy Spirit is a woman, Jesus' father is Zacharias, and the Messiah has not yet come.
In short, it is a false gospel. Expect criticism.
To live successfully apart from God ? I have never ever said that. I believe the opposite.
Jesus is a saviour. I have never said otherwise.
Here again you are mis-quoting what I wrote.
Your are not interested to understand what I shared and you are twisiting it
The Holy spirit is understood by mots people to be a comforting and feminine spirit. The Messiah has come and is returning. Nothing new here.
Concerning Zacharias, if you were open enough to study the issue, you may be surprised.
It is very much OK to says that you disagree with someone else opinion, understanding or beliefs. It is something else to twist their words and it is not wise to just tell someone that they beliefs are false and that you only know the truth. Humility is always the better way to communicate. It does not mean that you are confident in your own faith
What you say is absolutely correct. And the reality is that "one" has stepped forward and accused Satan of committing the very unpardonable sins against GOD, let alone mankind, and has decreed that Satan will pay for such attrocities. Only he went one step further. He paid for our sins as well as condemning Satan for his failures.
Yes Jesus was able to step forward because Satan did not have any claim on him
Yes after being rejected by the ones God had prepared to receive him, he had to go the way of the cross. Satan took his physical body but Jesus was totally victorious spiritually and brought spiritual salvation to all mankind. By believing in him and following him we can inherit his victory.
The Messiah has to come a 3rd time to bring physical salvation and remove the original sin that every human is still born with form generation to generation
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