The Fall happened in two stages

[winner08]

So God is evil then.

Not my God, thank you.

Thomas

Man , Thomas< How many times must I say this? It is so very simple to understand. What's up?? God IS NOT EVIL. I never said it was so either.
God did create evil. But He is not evil. I formed the light and created darkness, I make peace and created calamity I The Lord do all these things. Lets see if I can give you an example. Ok I can't, why? because this is just so easy to see and understand. It is a plain and simple. God is the creator of Satan, and satan is the evil one. so is God evil; NO< not a bit. God creates man, man sins is God responsible NO, why? because we make our choices, just as you said. we make our own choices. If we chose to go and sin then it is on our head. Not the Lords. Come on man I know you get this. There is some foolish people out here but I don't think your one of them.

 

[Thomas]

How many times must I say this? It is so very simple to understand. What's up?? God IS NOT EVIL. I never said it was so either.

But you say God created evil. So God is the source of evil. There would be no evil unless God willed there to be evil ... so the cause, source and origin of evil is in God. I don't see how you can say what you say and not understand what it means.

It is a plain and simple. God is the creator of Satan, and satan is the evil one. so is God evil; NO< not a bit.

No. If you send an assassin to kill someone, is not the person who hired the assassin as guilty as the assassin.

God created the angels, and an angel fell, whom we now call Satan — but that angel was created good by God, not created evil by God.

God creates man, man sins is God responsible NO, why? because we make our choices, just as you said.

That's my point.

The angel chose to disobey God ... God did not create an 'angel of disobedience' ... the sin rises in the angel, not in God. It was the angel's free will to choose other than what God wills that introduced evil into the spiritual world.

Then Adam and Eve chose to disobey God ... God did not create them to disobey Him ... the sin rises with them, not with God. It was man's free will to choose other than what God wills, suggested by an evil angel and a liar, that introduced evil into the material world — but the sin is man's.

Their choice was an expression of their freedom. It's result was the realisation, and the actualisation, of evil ...

But there is no evil in the Mind of God for God to will.

That God foreknew that Adam would disobey Him does not mean it was God's will that Adam disobey Him. Rather it points to God's mercy that He allows his creation to make a mistake, and then offers to help him make it right.

But if you say God knew what they would do, and willed them to do it, then you are saying God is the author and accomplice in an evil act, and every evil act, that flows from that first evil.

If God willed Adam and Eve to disobey Him, then God wills the murderer to kill, the rapist to rape, the child abuser ... d'you see? All error, all evil, all suffering, flows from that first decision.

It was our decision, not God's.

Thomas

 

[Netti-Netti]

Might as well get it from the Catholic Bible:

formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord that do all these things.
​

That's from Isaiah 45:1

Historically, there have been attempts to minimize the Creator's role with respect to evil, including suggestions to the effect that He allows it, but dos not actively create it.

St. Thomas Aquinas is frequently cited in these kinds of discussions. Basically, if G-d did not allow evil, then there would be no existential space for good. I alluded to this concept at the end of my previous post.

 

[soleil10]

Might as well get it from the Catholic Bible:

formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord that do all these things.
​

That's from Isaiah 45:1

This only means "disaster" not moral "evil". . . .this means like what God had threatened to Nineva. . .God will bring a calamity if the people don't repent, etc.

This is a hebrew to english translation problem. . .but most modern version (such as the NIV) will translate it to mean "disaster."

 

[winner08]

But you say God created evil. So God is the source of evil. There would be no evil unless God willed there to be evil ... so the cause, source and origin of evil is in God. I don't see how you can say what you say and not understand what it means.


No. If you send an assassin to kill someone, is not the person who hired the assassin as guilty as the assassin.

God created the angels, and an angel fell, whom we now call Satan — but that angel was created good by God, not created evil by God.


That's my point.

The angel chose to disobey God ... God did not create an 'angel of disobedience' ... the sin rises in the angel, not in God. It was the angel's free will to choose other than what God wills that introduced evil into the spiritual world.

Then Adam and Eve chose to disobey God ... God did not create them to disobey Him ... the sin rises with them, not with God. It was man's free will to choose other than what God wills, suggested by an evil angel and a liar, that introduced evil into the material world — but the sin is man's.

Their choice was an expression of their freedom. It's result was the realisation, and the actualisation, of evil ...

But there is no evil in the Mind of God for God to will.

That God foreknew that Adam would disobey Him does not mean it was God's will that Adam disobey Him. Rather it points to God's mercy that He allows his creation to make a mistake, and then offers to help him make it right.

But if you say God knew what they would do, and willed them to do it, then you are saying God is the author and accomplice in an evil act, and every evil act, that flows from that first evil.

If God willed Adam and Eve to disobey Him, then God wills the murderer to kill, the rapist to rape, the child abuser ... d'you see? All error, all evil, all suffering, flows from that first decision.

It was our decision, not God's.

Thomas

Thomas you have some very good replys to my questions and I wish I could get to responed tonight, but since I look up most passages in scripture withinn the bible It takes me a long time to ansewer and then I want to make sure I have the correct versus down in order that I may add something helpfull and truth full to the subject were discussing. So I read your reply and I will respond tomorrow in the am. Anyway thanks for the great conversation and the indept study i must do to keep up have a good night and a great day tomorrow. see ya.