The Fall happened in two stages

soleil10

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First stage: Lucifer seduced Eve. When Eve united with the archangel (in spirit), she felt a sense of fear, which came from a guilty conscience.

Second stage: Eve seduced Adam who then fell too.

Do you agree ?
 
First stage: Lucifer seduced Eve. When Eve united with the archangel (in spirit), she felt a sense of fear, which came from a guilty conscience.

Second stage: Eve seduced Adam who then fell too.

Do you agree ?
I believe it to be myth and metaphor...what does the unification church indicate there?
 
What do you mean by a myth and metaphor ?
The children in that neck of the woods were no different from the children in the Americas, Asia, Africa, Australia etc. So why, when, where, how were probably asked repeatedly as they are today...

Hence every area came up with their answer, their creation story, myth, metaphor. The garden, the fall, are explanations to satisfy...
 
The children in that neck of the woods were no different from the children in the Americas, Asia, Africa, Australia etc. So why, when, where, how were probably asked repeatedly as they are today...

Hence every area came up with their answer, their creation story, myth, metaphor. The garden, the fall, are explanations to satisfy...

I do believe in the fall
 
First stage: Lucifer seduced Eve. When Eve united with the archangel (in spirit), she felt a sense of fear, which came from a guilty conscience.

Second stage: Eve seduced Adam who then fell too.

Do you agree ?
Nope ... I think you've missed an absolutely blindingly fantastic point! I think you've missed the metaphysical meat of the matter! I think you're making something out of nothing, and missed what's staring you in the face! I think ... I think ... I think you really don't wanna know what I think ...

Consider:
"And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat."
Up until this point, everything in the garden is rosey, as the saying goes. She is not aware of anything different, and nor is he ... until he eats as well:
"And the eyes of them both were opened"
So nothing happened until Adam ate! The story doesn't say, 'her eyes were opened, and then he ate, and his were too' — there is a profound dimension to the fact that the sin is a collective one, involving, at that time, the entire human race, not any particular individual.

"... and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons... "
So the Primordial Couple lost that interior vision of each other ... the cosmological order had been lost before they even realised the mystical import of their communal fall! They're hiding from each other ... in effect lying to each other ... and God's not even on the scene yet!

"... And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise..."
Why? Why hide unless you've lost sight of who God is? Why hide from the deity who delights in your presence? Why hide from He who gave you everything? Why hide from He who said, 'in the whole world, you can have anything you want, do anything you like, except one thing' ... ?

"... And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou?"
Can't you see? Not "You wait til I get hold of you, you little *******!" ... but "where are you?" Why? Because He was still offering them the chance to say, "Actually, Lord, I've made the most frightful mistake ... "

But no ... the very thing man didn't do, was say, "We ****ed up" — instead we made excuse, and blamed everybody in sight ... and so the tragedy unfolds.

It's a mess entirely of our own making, and we continue to hold everyone and everything else responsible. It's an offence against God, and we continue to insist that God doesn't have a say in the matter, it's up to me to determine my own salvation.

Thomas
 
Good post Thomas, and interesting timing. I just was talking about this elsewhere, where another person was saying that the disobedience was the fall. But I think it was as you say, the shame, the blame, the alienation and the pride that came right after. The choices we made...the moment we were able.
 
how about;

the metaphor shares that choice was born.

the day awareness began

meaning; in the beginnning man was 'in the garden' instinctive and naked with no self as being a choice

then a day came and a choice was made, words were born as articulation evolved

the species became aware of its existence (man was born in the image of God)

the figs share that self and vanity began

man left the garden by choice

man began to think they were above nature (left the sight of God)

the fall of man was based on the selfish isolation from nature (God)

BUT, the capacity of awareness is how choice lives.

And 'of choice' mankind can experience compassion and Love

mankind can know good and evil

mankind can create and 'support life to continue' by choice

mankind can give of himself and live forever in what HE does, by choice

Perhaps read what genesis/quoting God says

22And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

and if you think about it, here is God stating the greatness of the progression.

as well notice mankind is still upon the earth, so in this context, Adam and Eve are living 'to the ages'......

and to just look around, mankind can cause/create 'good and evil'

as well each of us can contribute of our time and energy for life to continue, by choice

Mankind did not fall, mankind evolved from the instinctive existence of what we all know as nature (the garden).

perhaps that analogy can assist thinking and applicability to the 'seal'

how many more need to be 'opened'?
 
Is the fruit a literal fruit or is it a symbol ?

How could a God of love, the parent of mankind, make such an attractive fruit and leave it in a place where it could be eaten by his children and cause them to fall ?

Jesus said in Matthew 15:11 "....not what goes in the mouth defiles a man,,," How then could something edible cause the fall ?

Woud a God of Love create a fruit of good and evil to test man, so mercilessly at to ultimately cause his death, merely to see whether or not manwould obey His word.

The fact that they ate the fruit despite having been told that they would die, indicates that the fruit must represent something so extremely stimulating that their desire for it was even greater than their desire for life.
 
Is the fruit a literal fruit or is it a symbol ?
the whole story is symbolic

How could a God of love, the parent of mankind, make such an attractive fruit and leave it in a place where it could be eaten by his children and cause them to fall ?
again, you missed the whole concept of what the story mean

'curious george' ......... was not a real monkey but lots of good lessons to learn

Jesus said in Matthew 15:11 "....not what goes in the mouth defiles a man,,," How then could something edible cause the fall ?
wow!

now matt is being used to define genesis.... what's the number to your pharmacist?

go eat some peyote, a whole button, then after you get up off the floor, ask yourself.... "did what I eat, just kick the sh.t out of me?"

bet your whole life changes from that one event?

Woud a God of Love create a fruit of good and evil to test man, so mercilessly at to ultimately cause his death, merely to see whether or not manwould obey His word.

The fact that they ate the fruit despite having been told that they would die, indicates that the fruit must represent something so extremely stimulating that their desire for it was even greater than their desire for life.

If you really read the story, it suggests God said DON"T, and that they would die

then the 'serpant' says, 'surely you will not die'

then they eat it, and get kicked out of eden

then god praises; 'man is like us'..... 'to live to the ages' and then gives them clothing...

go figure?

read the story BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Genesis 3;;
 
again, you missed the whole concept of what the story mean

now matt is being used to define genesis.... what's the number to your pharmacist?

If you really read the story,

read the story BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Genesis 3;;


I did not appreciate the tone of your comment. To treat me as being dumb is not conducive to further discussion. It is very unfortunate.
 
Is the fruit a literal fruit or is it a symbol ?

How could a God of love, the parent of mankind, make such an attractive fruit and leave it in a place where it could be eaten by his children and cause them to fall ?

Jesus said in Matthew 15:11 "....not what goes in the mouth defiles a man,,," How then could something edible cause the fall ?

Woud a God of Love create a fruit of good and evil to test man, so mercilessly at to ultimately cause his death, merely to see whether or not manwould obey His word.

The fact that they ate the fruit despite having been told that they would die, indicates that the fruit must represent something so extremely stimulating that their desire for it was even greater than their desire for life.

Soleil10

Is the fruit a literal fruit or is it a symbol ?

A fruit is a seed which has the potential to become the tree it came from. Eating the seed of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil allows it to grow within ones being.

At the stage of their development, they weren't burdened by defending conditioned subjective interpretations of good and evil but rather this was the seed of the knowledge of OBJECTIVE good and evil. Being caught up with subjective good and evil, we rarely ever contemplate objective good and evil.

How could a God of love, the parent of mankind, make such an attractive fruit and leave it in a place where it could be eaten by his children and cause them to fall ?

Perhaps God that created Man is not the same as the LORD God that created Adam and Eve. Maybe the fall was not the result of some sort of test but necessary for a cosmic purpose at the time.

The fact that they ate the fruit despite having been told that they would die, indicates that the fruit must represent something so extremely stimulating that their desire for it was even greater than their desire for life.

What does Genesis mean by "die"? Does it mean death as we normally refer to our deaths? Perhaps knowledge of objective good and evil that leads to awakening to human meaning and purpose is stimulating. Jesus tried to awaken those sensitive to human meaning and purpose along with objective good and evil. What changed between the time of the fall and Jesus arrival on Earth?

Perhaps the account of the Fall has layers of meaning. It can then be taken superficially and also become a tool for contemplation that can open one to profound psychological meaning. Real Art can do this.
 
At the stage of their development, they weren't burdened by defending conditioned subjective interpretations of good and evil but rather this was the seed of the knowledge of OBJECTIVE good and evil. Being caught up with subjective good and evil, we rarely ever contemplate objective good and evil.


So according to you the fruit they ate was the ........
I am not sure I understand what you are saying

Perhaps God that created Man is not the same as the LORD God that created Adam and Eve. Maybe the fall was not the result of some sort of test but necessary for a cosmic purpose at the time.

Are you saying that you believe in two Gods ?

What does Genesis mean by "die"? Does it mean death as we normally refer to our deaths? Perhaps knowledge of objective good and evil that leads to awakening to human meaning and purpose is stimulating. Jesus tried to awaken those sensitive to human meaning and purpose along with objective good and evil. What changed between the time of the fall and Jesus arrival on Earth?

I believe that it was a spiritual death not a physical death. My understanding is that people would risk their life for love' The force of love is so strong that God gave them a commandment
 
Nope ... I think you've missed an absolutely blindingly fantastic point! I think you've missed the metaphysical meat of the matter! I think you're making something out of nothing, and missed what's staring you in the face! I think ... I think ... I think you really don't wanna know what I think ...

Consider:
"And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat."
Up until this point, everything in the garden is rosey, as the saying goes. She is not aware of anything different, and nor is he ... until he eats as well:
"And the eyes of them both were opened"
So nothing happened until Adam ate! The story doesn't say, 'her eyes were opened, and then he ate, and his were too' — there is a profound dimension to the fact that the sin is a collective one, involving, at that time, the entire human race, not any particular individual.

Question Thomas: What do you mean when you say involving, at (that time)? the entire human race. who are the entire human race. It was adam and eve and no other humans at that time and place. the sin happen before cain and able and any other humans were on the earth.

"... and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons... "
So the Primordial Couple lost that interior vision of each other ... the cosmological order had been lost before they even realised the mystical import of their communal fall! They're hiding from each other ... in effect lying to each other ... and God's not even on the scene yet!

Question: They were hiding from each other?
No they were hiding from God.
Gen 3:10 So he (adam) said I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid ecause I was (naked), and I hid myself,. ight there this scripture tells you excactly why and who they were hiding from. Not themeselves.
BTW God is and was and will be always on the scene. Always.

"... And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise..."
Why? Why hide unless you've lost sight of who God is? Why hide from the deity who delights in your presence? Why hide from He who gave you everything? Why hide from He who said, 'in the whole world, you can have anything you want, do anything you like, except one thing' ... ?

Question: Why hide unless you lost sight of who God is?
Gen 3 10 Adam and eve never for one second lost sight of who God is. they hide because not of they lost sight but because they were afraid. afraid of what afraid because they were naked, Gen 3:10 I was afraid because I was naked and I hid myself. Do you believe in what the word of the Lord says (scriptture)?? right here in the simplest words. afraid/naked.


"... And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou?"
Can't you see? Not "You wait til I get hold of you, you little *******!" ... but "where are you?" Why? Because He was still offering them the chance to say, "Actually, Lord, I've made the most frightful mistake ... "

Question; God asked them where are you? and you say it is because God was giving them a chance to say actually Lord I made the most frightful mistake. Again lets see what the Word of God says. Gen 3:9-10 Then the Lord called to adam and said to him, Where are you? (10) so he said, I heard YUour voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked, and I hid myself. Nowhere does the Lord meantion anything about giving them a chance to confess. or admit they made a mistake.


But no ... the very thing man didn't do, was say, "We ****ed up" — instead we made excuse, and blamed everybody in sight ... and so the tragedy unfolds.

It's a mess entirely of our own making, and we continue to hold everyone and everything else responsible. It's an offence against God, and we continue to insist that God doesn't have a say in the matter, it's up to me to determine my own salvation.



Thomas

Question: Thomas you said that it;s a mess entirely of our own making.
No not entirely of our own making. and that it's an offence against God. No, No, No. Thomas, do you believe that God is all knowing. That God knows the (end) from the (beginning)? do you believe that God has foreknowledge of all things? Then if so, the mess is not entirely on us. Yes we make the choices. God however creates the circumstances. adam and eve found themselves into. and adam and eve chose to take the fruit and then knew good and evil. It was their choice ,but it was God who made the circumstances as needed for adam and eve to be tempted and sin. Not satan. Satan did not creat the circumstances. Satan was the insturment that God used in order to influence them to sin. Satan did not creat the tree of life and good and evil. It wasn't satan who put the tree in the mist (middle of the garden) It wasn't satan who made the tree most appealing to the sight and smell of the humans. God knew before hand that adam and eve would sin. Remember God is never shocked or suprised by anything puny man does. God made man. He made man spiritually weak. Why did He do this? Because if not and Gopd made us spiritualy strong Then why would we need God. Why would we need to be saved? God made man spiritualy weak so that we must depend on Him for our salvation.
You said that we continue to insist that God doesn't have any say in the matter, it's up to us to determine our own salvation. Yes that is so ture. Man does not want to admit that he has to depend on anybody for anything. I believe it is called pride. We hate to admit we are weak. That we need God. It goes against our nature. Do you believe this???
 
thanks Thomas for your insite. I love our little chats. This is good for the soul. It is good to have discussions. This is a good way to see each others side and maby learn sonething from it. Even though we disagree on most things there is still a place to understand between us.
 
Thomas, do you believe that God is all knowing.
Yes.

That God knows the (end) from the (beginning)?
Yes.

do you believe that God has foreknowledge of all things?
Yes.

Then if so, the mess is not entirely on us. Yes we make the choices. God however creates the circumstances.
So that's God's fault? You blame God for everything bad that happens?

This is nonsense. This is like saying if you don't want the kid to steal sweets then don't put them on display. This is like saying it was her own fault the woman got raped because she is beautiful.

We make the choices. God knows what choices we will make, but He does not make us make them — God does not choose for us — we have the ability to make the right or the wrong choice, and we are told what is right and what is wrong.

It was their choice, but it was God who made the circumstances as needed for adam and eve to be tempted and sin.
Yes, by making them free to choose as they will. How can man be free if the only thing he can do is what he's told?

God knew before hand that adam and eve would sin.
But that does not mean He willed them to sin. You assume that because knows everything, He wills everything ... that is not the case.

Because if not and God made us spiritualy strong Then why would we need God.
Silly argument. Doesn't matter how strong man is, He can't live without God. That's your pride talking.

Why would we need to be saved? God made man spiritualy weak so that we must depend on Him for our salvation.
That's also a false argument. Man's good is in God, so even perfect man, as Adam and Eve were, still had their end, their good, in God. Perfection does not mean no further need of God, perfection means understanding that we exist because God wills it.

You said that we continue to insist that God doesn't have any say in the matter, it's up to us to determine our own salvation. Yes that is so ture.
That is not what I say, and it's not what I believe. I believe God saves us, we cannot save ourselves. Christ said "without me, you can do nothing" (John 5:15). I believe we co-operate in that, but I do not believe we are the architects of our own salvation.

Man does not want to admit that he has to depend on anybody for anything. I believe it is called pride. We hate to admit we are weak. That we need God. It goes against our nature. Do you believe this???
Yes I do, but I do not believe God is cruel, vindictive or spiteful. I do not believe God is a liar. I do not believe God plays tricks. I do not believe God made us to punish us for His pleasure — I believe we have brought this upon ourselves, it was not the will of God that man should fall, any more than it is the will of God that we should suffer in hell.

I do not believe God is evil, or the source of evil.

Thomas
 
Yes.


Yes.


Yes.


So that's God's fault? You blame God for everything bad that happens?

Comment: I guess you just cant comperhend what I just said. I said that God creates the cicumstances we find ourselves into at anytime in any moment. WE, WE make our on choices. did you understand what I said Thomas. Stop putting words in my mouth I never once said I blame God for anything. read my statment again. God's circumstances. Our choices. got it or do I have to writ bigger??

This is nonsense. This is like saying if you don't want the kid to steal sweets then don't put them on display. This is like saying it was her own fault the woman got raped because she is beautiful.

We make the choices. God knows what choices we will make, but He does not make us make them — God does not choose for us — we have the ability to make the right or the wrong choice, and we are told what is right and what is wrong.

This is what I have been saying the whole time. Once again Thomas I said God ;creates the circumstances and WE, QWE make our own choices right or wrong. God does not make the choice for us. Man is this too hard for you to understand. Why are you twisting my words??


Yes, by making them free to choose as they will. How can man be free if the only thing he can do is what he's told?

Comment: Thomas where did I say this?? That man only can do is what he's told. BTW I did say man makes choices right or wrong.


But that does not mean He willed them to sin. You assume that because knows everything, He wills everything ... that is not the case.

Comment: Yes God's intention was for adam and eve to sin. to open their eyes so they would know good and evil. And God used satan to do it. Why is this so hard for you to believe?? You don't think it was nessery for us to experience evil? What we just go around all day everyday just knowing and doing good? never knowing what pain and suffering and evil is all about.


Silly argument. Doesn't matter how strong man is, He can't live without God. That's your pride talking.

Comment I was being sarcastic. God made man spiritually weak so we would have to depend on God for our spiritual strenth and our salvation


That's also a false argument. Man's good is in God, so even perfect man, as Adam and Eve were, still had their end, their good, in God. Perfection does not mean no further need of God, perfection means understanding that we exist because God wills it.

Comment" What are you talking about, even (perfect man), AS adam and eve. perfect Now I know that nowhere in the whole bible does it say they were perfect. I don;t know where you got that one from.

That is not what I say, and it's not what I believe. I believe God saves us, we cannot save ourselves. Christ said "without me, you can do nothing" (John 5:15). I believe we co-operate in that, but I do not believe we are the architects of our own salvation.

comment: Finnally we agree on something.


Yes I do, but I do not believe God is cruel, vindictive or spiteful. I do not believe God is a liar. I do not believe God plays tricks. I do not believe God made us to punish us for His pleasure — I believe we have brought this upon ourselves, it was not the will of God that man should fall, any more than it is the will of God that we should suffer in hell.

I do not believe God is evil, or the source of evil.

Thomas

Ok let's take this one at a time.

You do not believe that God is cruel, vindictive or spiteful.
Cruel. If you believe in hell where God will barbaque man, billions of men women and children because they was not born again then that god is cruel.
vengence is MINE sayith the LORD. I think that say it all.
Spiteful no He is not spiteful. that is man who is spiteful.
alright one more we agree upon. (lier) He ia not
that's 3 things we agree upon. (plays tricks)
#4 agree punish just for the heck of it. No i don't believe it. God never never punishish just to punish. God chastise and or punish us inorder to teach us . Never just to punish.
Here we go again. No it was not the will of God that man would fall. These are terrible wordings Man never faild.It was and is God's plan from the start. For man to know good and evil. it just that simple. God intended for man to know theses things. man could not go through his life never knowing what suffering was or pain. Why? Did not Jesus go through all these terrible thing? So if it was nessery for the Son of God to know what pain and suffering was by actually going through it, why not a puny man. Why would God NOT have man to suffer and to know pain and loss. These are great character buliders. without the hard times how would you ever learn to overcome. Does not Jesus say one must overcome this world and stay strong to the end, overcome, overcome what? good, nice, easy and all the good thing in life? No overcome the bad, hard, evil ways of this world.
NO it is not the will of God for us to suffer in hell. There is no hell like you believe. that is annother topic.
Did you read the old test. probable not. If you do you will notice that God is a very vengfull and angry God at times and He uses the Isrealites to wipe out and wipe then off the face of the earth, cities and towns that they are to occupied. God told saul at one point before a battle to kill every man women and child and all their livestock and smash every idol and religionist symbols. That is just one time they had many battle that the Lord told the isrealites to kill everybody and everything. I will give you chapter and verse later.

missed one, I agree again ,this is good I do not believe that God is evil or the source of evil. How many times must I say this, God created evil. Satan. satan is Gods source of evil and Satan is evil, NOT GOD
I have never said such a thing as to God being evil. God cannot be evil but yet he uses evil to His purpose for the outcom of His plan. His perfect plan. God created evil. God created Satan the devil. God uses these things just like He uses the good and loveing things all for His purpose. What so hard about that. Please don't mix my words and say I said that God IS evil. That's so wrong. Thanks thomas for you very helpful and your wisdom on these subject matters. Thanks again.
Have a great day. I'm signning off.
 
. But I think it was as you say, the shame, the blame, the alienation and the pride that came right after.
I would say the decision to emulate divine power ("the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods") was an expression of pride and alienation. I can see where the issue of blame and shame would arise as aftereffects.

I personally think the state of mind (pride and alienation) is more important than the singular act of disobedience.

So that's God's fault? You blame God for everything bad that happens?
G-d created finite creatures who are prone to misunderstandings about their possibilities. I fully believe it was His intention that mortals experience a career of evolvement through which these misunderstandings are overcome.
 
Hi Soleil

So according to you the fruit they ate was the ........
I am not sure I understand what you are saying

What is the knowledge of Good and Evil? For us it has become purely subjective and largely conditioned by our environment. But the Tree of the Know;ledge of good and Evil was in the garden Adam was working in. This means the tree wasn't there for solely for his benefit but was there for a universal purpose.from which Man could benefit. What do you think objective good and evil is? subjective good and evil for Man would no longer exist if Man were destroyed but objective good and evil exists independent of Man. What could that be?

The Tree has branches which are the expressions of the trunk. The fruit or seed of this knowledge opens a person to it as it grows within them. This is not referring to a physical process but rather a psychological one where Man becomes aware of objective knowledge. It surely isn't bad.

Christendom has twisted the meaning of the following which has resulted in a lot of unnecessary emotional problems.

Genesis 3

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

The beginnings of the inner knowledge of objective good and evil is the realization of our nothingness, our psychological nakedness.

The fig tree in scripture represents the good of the natural so Adam and Eve first try to deal with their nothingness by what the leaves offer.

Unfortunately its been turned into a sex issue for secularism but sex is a process that is neither objectively good or evil.

Are you saying that you believe in two Gods ?

No. there is the Godhead outside time and space and what could be called "god's within creation. Meister Eckhart does not call himself the Godhead but is referring to being "in the image."

"When I came out from God, that is, into multiplicity, then all proclaimed, 'There is a God' (i.e., the personal God, Creator of all things). Now this cannot make me blessed, for hereby I realize myself as creature. But in the breaking through (i.e. through all limitations), I am more than all creatures, I am neither God nor creature; I am that which I was and shall remain evermore. There I receive a thrust which carries me above all angels. By this sudden touch I am become so rich that God (i.e., God as opposed to the Godhead) is not sufficient for me, so far as he is only God and in all his divine works. For in this breaking through I perceive what God and I are in common. There I am what I was. There I neither increase nor decrease. For there I am the immovable which moves all things. Here man has won again what he is eternally (i.e., in his essential being) and ever shall be. Here God (i.e., the Godhead) is received into the soul."

"Two gods" means a linear equality. Gods and the Godhead are an important distinction in objective quality.


I believe that it was a spiritual death not a physical death. My understanding is that people would risk their life for love' The force of love is so strong that God gave them a commandment

Is knowledge of love the knowledge of objective good and evil. Are you saying that Adam did not love God before the fall?
 
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