Discussion of Legalism please?

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Heirphoto

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I am a fairly new Christian, or maybe I should say I am coming back to this after a very long time away.

I hear the term "legalism" mentioned but the Wiki definition really does not make me understand the arguments for/against it.

Can someone here give me a quick legalism 101 refresher. Deeds, Grace, Faith alone......

Next I need to understand Calvinism......

Thanks for any help,
Tony
 
Heirphoto said:
I am a fairly new Christian, or maybe I should say I am coming back to this after a very long time away.

I hear the term "legalism" mentioned but the Wiki definition really does not make me understand the arguments for/against it.

Can someone here give me a quick legalism 101 refresher. Deeds, Grace, Faith alone......

Next I need to understand Calvinism......

Thanks for any help,
Tony
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Greetings, Tony. Welcome to the Interfaith forums.

Paul deals with this issue in Galatians.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." - Galatians 2:16

Basically legalism is an issue of justification. If we are 'in Christ', then He is the end of the law, our righteousness is found in Him, and not within ourselves. So our motivation for obedience to God isn't one of compulsion in order to gain His favor. Rather we have freedom in Christ to love God freely because we aren't out to 'win' salvation. Salvation is 'a gift of God, not of works, lest any man boast' (Eph. 2:9).


Legalism tries to force a believer into compliance to the law, without consideration of God's grace that gives us the liberty to love freely. God's grace is there to provide forgiveness and restoration to God without the need of repentive deeds. God forgives on the basis of the work Christ did on the Cross, when He bore our sins. We just need to accept that grace.

On the other hand, we must also recognize the value of obedience to God in our relationship with Him. While He has saved us, our relationship with the Lord can be marred if we harbor sin in our lives. Our motivation to obey, therefore, is not to gain salvation, but that we might learn to love God.

Or to put it another way. When we get married to our spouse, we do not have to do anything to stay married, for we have entered a marriage covenant that binds us together. However, once we are married, we are to love our spouses by providing for their needs, caring for them, showing affection, and doing things that will allow the marriage to grow. We are free to love in this manner.

Again Paul emphasizes this in Galatians 5:13-14:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

You cannot legislate the human heart. That change must come from within, a willingness to obey God because we want to love God and our neighbor. I recommend you read the entire book of Galatians.

Now as far as Calvinism, that is a whole other issue. I suggest a separate thread.

Love & Peace

Dondi
 
Hi Heirphoto,

Dondi explained the concept extremely well, I'd say. The classic example of legalism in the Bible was the Pharisees, who believed that righteousness was the result of following Mosaic law to the letter. One result that Jesus mentions is that some Pharisees would allow their own parents to starve in order to dedicate what extra they had to God (i.e. give it to the temple), because that was their interpretation of the law. Another result was that they got really angry when Jesus healed people on the Sabbath day, because it was supposed to be a day of rest.

In both cases, I think it's easy to see that a strict adherence to the letter of the law without putting any thought into the spirit of the law (i.e. What God wanted to achieve with his commandments) results in a terrible miscarriage of the law. In the mind of the Pharisee, though, he has earned his righteousness by following the rules.

In contrast, if you take what Dondi said about acting with love for God and for each other in mind, you end up obeying God and God's commandments anyways. The difference is that you also do good in the world by acting selflessly instead of selfishly because earning righteousness isn't what's on your mind.
 
Marsh said:
Hi Heirphoto,

Dondi explained the concept extremely well, I'd say. The classic example of legalism in the Bible was the Pharisees, who believed that righteousness was the result of following Mosaic law to the letter. One result that Jesus mentions is that some Pharisees would allow their own parents to starve in order to dedicate what extra they had to God (i.e. give it to the temple), because that was their interpretation of the law. Another result was that they got really angry when Jesus healed people on the Sabbath day, because it was supposed to be a day of rest.

In both cases, I think it's easy to see that a strict adherence to the letter of the law without putting any thought into the spirit of the law (i.e. What God wanted to achieve with his commandments) results in a terrible miscarriage of the law. In the mind of the Pharisee, though, he has earned his righteousness by following the rules.

In contrast, if you take what Dondi said about acting with love for God and for each other in mind, you end up obeying God and God's commandments anyways. The difference is that you also do good in the world by acting selflessly instead of selfishly because earning righteousness isn't what's on your mind.
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When it comes down to the letter of the law, or the spirit of the law, the spirit of the law usually wins...
 
Thank you all for the detailed and much more clear explanation than I had found on the internet wikis and such.

I have read Galatians once but having read your explanation I am sure it will make more sense. I'll make this the mornings reading when my mind is fresh for the day.

The works/faith/grace struggle is hard. Even before "waking up" to what I have missed I was very much a follow Gods law type simply because it was the right thing to do in life whether religous or not. My finding Christ was becuase I sensed that was simply not enough.

In my life and work I was very dismayed with the days happenings and events of ther world. In my own home based business I work with several Amish families and always felt comfort in their positive attitudes. I started having discussions with an elderly Amish gentleman and was quickly drawn to reading the bible daily. That quickly openned my eyes to how much better life could be having a direction. Right now I am searching for a church that fits. I am still having struggles though in my belief as I still feel I need to be a better person before I can give myself to Christ but in my heart I know that is foolish.

I really need to find someone local to sit down and talk with about my struggles so I can just do what I need to do. I have lived my life afraid to let people down or to dissapoint them and know it is silly to think Jesus expects me to be perfect before he could accept me.

Thank you all for the replies,
Tony
 
Heirphoto said:
Thank you all for the detailed and much more clear explanation than I had found on the internet wikis and such.

I have read Galatians once but having read your explanation I am sure it will make more sense. I'll make this the mornings reading when my mind is fresh for the day.

The works/faith/grace struggle is hard. Even before "waking up" to what I have missed I was very much a follow Gods law type simply because it was the right thing to do in life whether religous or not. My finding Christ was becuase I sensed that was simply not enough.

In my life and work I was very dismayed with the days happenings and events of ther world. In my own home based business I work with several Amish families and always felt comfort in their positive attitudes. I started having discussions with an elderly Amish gentleman and was quickly drawn to reading the bible daily. That quickly openned my eyes to how much better life could be having a direction. Right now I am searching for a church that fits. I am still having struggles though in my belief as I still feel I need to be a better person before I can give myself to Christ but in my heart I know that is foolish.

I really need to find someone local to sit down and talk with about my struggles so I can just do what I need to do. I have lived my life afraid to let people down or to dissapoint them and know it is silly to think Jesus expects me to be perfect before he could accept me.

Thank you all for the replies,
Tony
Click to expand...
Prayer, is having a heartfelt conversation with God (regardless of your emotional state, or attitude). Talk, yell, scream, cry, laugh at him...it doesn't matter, because you have his attention, and he has yours. Try it.

Forget your errors/mistakes/sins...just communicate with God at the level and intensity of where you are at right now.

The intensity of one's prayers, reflects the passion one has for God...
 
Heirphoto said:
Right now I am searching for a church that fits. I am still having struggles though in my belief as I still feel I need to be a better person before I can give myself to Christ but in my heart I know that is foolish.

I really need to find someone local to sit down and talk with about my struggles so I can just do what I need to do. I have lived my life afraid to let people down or to dissapoint them and know it is silly to think Jesus expects me to be perfect before he could accept me.

Thank you all for the replies,
Tony
Click to expand...


I commend you Tony, for your honest approach to your struggles and sharing with us your plight. My prayers are with you that you will find peace in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You will never be 'good' enough to come to Christ. That's our very problem. If we have to wait until we are good enough I fear we should never come to Christ. Being good enough won't work because our sinful nature won't allow it. It's the same dilemma that Paul speaks of in Romans 7:19:

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

For all your good intention, the thing that is needed is the presence of the Divine Nature in your life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that will enable and empower you to do good. Once again in Galatians 5:16-23:

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The works of the flesh are those things that hinder our walk with the Lord. The nature we inherited from the Fall is tainted with a tendency toward these destructive behaviors. However, when we prayerfully allow the Holy Spirit to lead us, we will begin to see the fruit of the Spirit rising up in us. And the less tendency toward bad. It is a process that may take some time, but the Holy Spirit will work within you as you grow in the Lord..
 
Thank you both, and yes I have foolishly remembered the only person I need to talk to about my struggle is already there waiting. Without even really thinking about it I always know he is there guiding and have always felt an "it is what it is" thing knowing that good or bad each move or event plays out exactly as it is supposed to. While I have known this I think I was simply afraid to say it out loud. A Christian friend a while back used the phrase "let go and let God". It is time for me to let go.

Thank you

Tony
 
Hi Tony —

Plenty to chew on here, one thing I'd just like to toss into the mix on legalism: Dondi quotes St Paul, and rightly so, because St Paul tackles the issues head on — but let's not lose sight of the man before his conversion: Saul of Tarsus was 'legalism' personified!

It would be a mistake however, to accuse the Jews of living by the Law, and the Christian declaring himself as one living by the spirit. The God who spoke to Abraham and Moses, and made promises to them, is the same God who spoke to the Apostles ... and the promise is the same.

Standing back, however, we can say the Covenant with Israel is a contact: "I will be your God, you will be my people" (cf Exodus 6:7). This relationship was deepened in Christianity to one of 'sonship', but it is possible to read this as a merely 'moral' sonship, and we're back to the law again. God has become our parent and guardian in law by contract.

Traditional, by which I mean pre-Reformation, Christianity sees this sonship as more than a moral act. We become sons and daughters in the Spirit of God by grace, in our incorporation into the Divine Nature.

Implicit in all this is man's freedom to accept or refuse the offer. The history of the Jews recorded in their Scriptures (our Old Testament) is one of a people who continually transgress the Covenant, and yet are continually forgiven, and continually called back to the Lord. The Covenant with Israel is no mere legalism, else once broken, that would be it. Nor does God keep coming back out of dependency or a sense of obligation: "Israel was a child, and I loved him" (Hosea 11:1). God is love, as we say, but to assume that idea never crossed the Jewish mind is nonsense ... we Christians bang on about 'sonship' in abstract theological speculations (I'm talking to myself here), but Father/son implies family ... and there the Jews have something to teach everyone! It might not look 'oooh-ah' mystical and spiritual, but it is profoundly so.

In the Reformation, this idea of sonship became severely strained. In Luther there is no actual forgiveness, for example: God does not wash away our sins, rather He chooses to 'overlook' them — not much of a dad really (had Luther been a parent himself, he might have altered his views).

In Calvin, the best way I can describe it is through philosophy:

Calvin held the Greek philosophical view (as does Christianity generally) that God is the First Cause ... but he took the view that God does what He does, and that everything thereafter is an effect of that cause: everything is predetermined.

Effects — what we do — are thus mere manifestations, not fresh acts, or in any way due to free will choosing its own course. There is no free will outside the Supreme.

Calvin denies freedom to creatures, but held that God does not compel man to act by force, yet he determines irresistibly all we do, whether good or evil. If we then ask why does God act thus, the answer is it is by "decree" of the sovereign Lawgiver that events come to pass. But for such decrees no reason can be rendered. The phrase is quia ipse voluit: 'it is His good pleasure', explanation is impossible, and to seek one an impiety. From the human angle of sight, therefore God works as though without a reason.

In Traditional Christianity, we were taught that God made us "to know Him and to love Him" (as my old Catechism used to say). Not because we must, nor because we have no choice nor option, but because we want to, because we love Him.

For me, the Reformation strips away love from man as a meaningful act, and replaces it with necessity and obligation; man's freedom is circumscribed, whereas the Jews called for a 'circumcision of the heart' and that was much of the message of Jesus.

If you hang around here — and I hope you do — you will come to know I can blether on for hours, but I am unashamedly Catholic, so keep that in mind.

Thomas
 
Dear Tony,
Please if I may,
I had similar situations/experiences i believe......(rejecting and even mocking God). but still, i had always had many questions and not enough answers.
then , one day, through a friend, i just said, "ok, God, WHAT DO YOU WANT OF ME?"
" I accept you".
and the feeling of mutual love i received was... unimaginable.!!
that is basically it. I had heard and read many others say similar things and I always thought..."crazy godloving weirdos"... LOL>
well, you know what??
as a very intelligent and wonderful woman once said to me.."God has a sense of humour..." she wasnt wrong. LOL
He showed me, and proved to me, that love from Him is real and through accepting that Love, I have received a wonderful gift... Real True Love........
I wish the love I feel on everyone. I hope you get it too, I really do.
Your christian friend is right and true. It sounds very simple, but, loveing God doesnt have to be complicated or coupled with intense study and education.
For some of us, its easy, once you accept that you ARE loved.
Thats it, in a nutshell. lol
 
greymare said:
Dear Tony,

Your christian friend is right and true. It sounds very simple, but, loveing God doesnt have to be complicated or coupled with intense study and education.
For some of us, its easy, once you accept that you ARE loved.
Thats it, in a nutshell. lol
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Greymare,
I think part of my problem, and one I realized a short while ago was I have been reading too many blogs and thinking a bit too hard. I read the bible daily and that seems to just simply make sense. I say a little silent prayer each time that my eyes will be openned to what is inside. I am a scientist by career and tend to search for facts even though my heart usually sends me in a different direction.
Thank you all again very much. I have been a lurker here since Fall and do plan to stay.
Tony
 
Heirphoto said:
Right now I am searching for a church that fits. I am still having struggles though in my belief as I still feel I need to be a better person before I can give myself to Christ but in my heart I know that is foolish.
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I was born into a Christian family, fell away in my teens, came back to the Lord when I was in my early twenties, and have been following as best as I can for seven years now. I'm still searching for a church that fits. I still feel that I am not good enough. You know what? I think this is exactly the right place to be, Tony.

"Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord, and he himself will raise you up," says James.

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth," says Jesus.

We both started belonging to God and to his son Jesus Christ from the moment we asked him if we could belong; like the father welcomed back his prodical son with opened arms, so too were we welcomed into God's family. Jesus calls us his brothers for a reason, and it's not because we're so funky ;)

The fact that you question yourself is a good thing, because it shows that you are aware of your shortcomings, that you want to be a better person, that you fell that you've missed out on things because you haven't followed him from the beginning. I feel the exact same way most of the time, and have found that it is the times that I don't feel at least somewhat inadequate that I am getting proud, and need to be reined-in.

Have you read the Revelation yet? If you have, you'll remember the description of how 24 elders are sitting around the throne in Heaven, each sitting on a throne of their own, each with a crown on their head. Notice how they bow down and offer their crown to God whenever they hear the four living creatures give him praise: In a sense they are saying, "I'm not good enough to be here." And yet that's where God has placed them, isn't it? Right next to him.

Let's both of us keep on praying, and hoping, and being critical of ourselves (not too much; just enough), because this will keep us humble, and in our humility it will allow God to have mercy on us, and to lift us up.

Marsh
 
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