Is Catholicism Christianity?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by enlightenment, Feb 18, 2009.

?

Are RC's Christians?

  1. Yes

    91.7%
  2. No

    8.3%
  1. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    gods/religion needs man to exist, as a concept.

    Were man to die off tommorow, there would be no one here to worship, pray, and make sacrifice to their god of choice.

    It is the existance of man that religion relies on.

    If there just mammals and inverts left, religion, and all that goes with it, would die.

    Why do you consider RC's to be in 'bondage'? Isn't that the problem, one religion thinking that someone of another is somehow misguided or missing out?

    Now, I am not saying that I agree with RC doctrine, just that it doesn't make any less sense to me than most other major religions.
     
  2. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Okay, first of, as I peer out my window, I see cars. And I believe that these were made in a factory, with machines operated by men. I could trace those men, watch them 'create' their cars. There are a thousand things I could do to demostrate that these cars were made, by man.

    But to compare that to 'trees and clouds' is a common error, often done in innocence.

    Have you ever read the Blind Watchmaker?

    I suggest it.
     
  3. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    That there doesnt have to be a man (priest) between us and the throne of God. That we can climb right up in His lap and say sorry and know we are forgiven. That no penance is needed.. all is forgotten.

    That we dont need works to ensure salvation ... the absolute knowledge that when we die we are received in heaven that Jesus Christ provided all the atonement we would ever need.

    I think to put it simply is the surety of my position in the kingdom of God as a daughter of God and on the way to being as Christ is.
     
  4. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    did you read my post in entirety? Someone created the car... Someone created this earth..

    Someone painted the painting... Someone created the scenery that is the painting.
     
  5. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Yes I did.

    I can show someone creating a car.

    Can you show someone creating an earth?
     
  6. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    I think there is just a general misunderstanding about this things. Catholics do not think the priest is between them and God. Just like you, Catholics have a direct and personal relationship with God. The Priest serves a specialized role in the sacraments and in leading the church, but they are not between the individual and God. In our catechism the laity and priests and bishops are all equally God's representatives.

    Also just like you, Catholics do not think they are saved by their works, but see good works as the fruit of the spirit, the outcome of their faith. They are not working their way to forgiveness and heaven any more than Protestants do.

    I think the one main difference between Protestants and the RCC is in your last point, surity of one's 'position in heaven.' But even there, the main difference in not that they will end up in heaven, but the amount of 'purification' in purgatory they must endure. Frankly, I don't think any of us knows enough about the afterlife to draw such conclusions.

    I only say these things because I think we experience a lot of grief over these differences which are not, in the scheme of things, important at all.
     
  7. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Seriously.. what I think is that someday we are ALL going to be standing in front of our maker and be sorrowful for not understanding how great our inheritance is. From the person who missed it all ... to the most righteous besides Jesus Christ.

    What Im saying is that none of us grasps all of what we are missing..

    So no I do not think every other faith is missing where I have it all.. Im understanding that there is depth to this relationship with God that noone on this earth comprehends and the little bit that I comprehend.. I would like others to comprehend..

    im sidestepping your attempts to make me sound arrogant. Thank you very much :p
     
  8. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    I certainly hope Im wrong in what I said... Im going on what Ive heard from various people... I also know in history that the common man was not allowed to read scripture that it was taught only priests could interpret scripture.. Is this true for today?

    Whats with the hail marys and rosaries for penance after confession?

    how come you always hear people say Im going to do party it up I'll just go to confession later this week?
     
  9. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    Just a quick thought, I think what you describe here is the equivalent of the Catholic purgatory...
     
  10. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Well to me i meant it as the combination of the bema seat or judgment seat of Christ for the believers and the great white throne judgment for unbelievers.
     
  11. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    There was a time when most people could not read, and books were reproduced very painstakingly by hand, and so there were not lots of copies. The scripture would be read, and that continues today in the liturgy...we hear a lot of the Bible in a typical liturgical service.

    But, after the printing press there were a couple of issues. One was that people could produce and widely transmit translations that varied widely in interpretation. You know more about that than I do I'm sure.

    Another is that there probably was abuse. I'm sure that some priests felt threatened by the loss of control. But that is not the situation today.

    Finally though, there is a real concern about reading the Bible in isolation from community. As you know, it is very easy to twist the scriptures to make them say very unChristian things. To protect against that Catholics recognize the authority of the Magisterium. In the Anglican Church we call it Tradition, Scripture and Reason. I don't think Catholics would phrase it that way, but the idea is still the same. An approach to scripture that is balanced by the traidition handed down from the apostles and tempored by reason, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

    Individuals are encouraged to read the Bible for themselves, to take it to prayer, and to ultimately follow their conscience. But just like the branches of our government, there are checks and balances for our communal life.


    The prayers are not intended worship Mary, although perhaps for some people it comes close to that. We believe in the Communion of Saints, which means that those holy souls who have gone on ahead of us can help us. Mary is especially blessed for her faith and for being the Mother of God, and so many of course wish for her aid in intercession. I myself do not usually pray to the Saints, although I don't see much difference between this and praying for God's angels to assist us. I think Mary devotion is a good thing to add balance and a feminine, mother's perspective to such a largely patriarchal church.

    Rosaries are not just for after confession. The hail Mary is another prayer, like the Lord's prayer. Like most prayers, they boil down to 'Help me God, help me turn to you, help me do your will, help preserve me from error. Help me.'

    Lol! Misguided I'd say, but that's not limited to Catholics!
     
  12. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    Yes, different words, perhaps different time concepts, but the bottom line is just the same. In the presence of God you face all your sins. I think in the Catholic faith there is sense that although you end up with God, you still experience what seems like fire or pain or intense remorse something because of the sins. I think this is a difference between Catholics and Protestants, as most Protestants do not believe there is any painful consequence for sin.

    I think that the judgement is not really describable as either painful or pain-free. I think we do face our sins, but with Jesus there we face them with his loving hand on our shoulder, so we know his love at the same time we feel remorse for our sins.
     
  13. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    I think the pains we will experience will be that of great shame. I think knowing G-ds mercy and love in His presence, realizing what we missed out on while seeking self during our lives will be the crux of our "punishment".

    Knowing that our lives, and the lives of others 'could' have been filled with love, and peace, and joy if we had only sought Him above ourselves will be painful enough in my mind. Knowing the pain we caused in others, and realizing that those pains 'could' have been avoided had we only sought to live in His presence.

    I'm not sure what purgatory is, but if it is real, then I will assume it will be a place geared towards us learning from our shortcomings. (Much like earth, only without others interfering with the task at hand.)

    I don't know? The after life is shrouded in mystery, and none of us know for certain what G-d has prepared for us.

    GK
     
  14. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    Exactly.

    But for Christians we trust that "All shall be well, and all shall be well, all manner of thing shall be well."

    And, God certainly seems to take our choices here on earth seriously, so maybe we should too.
     
  15. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    Absolutely, Luna! :)
     
  16. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Question.

    What does ANY religion need all these priests, pastors, nuns, etc, for?

    Surely if, as most of you believe, there is some sort of divine creator, then all you need do is be a good person, open your heart to that, and voila, you are sorted.

    Why does it have to be made any more complex than just that?
     
  17. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    BTW, I have not answered the poll because there is no choice for "What a silly question." :rolleyes:
     
  18. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Attention Seeker Alert.

    Look at me, look at me....:rolleyes:;)
     
  19. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Active Member

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    catholicism is christianity that fell on pre-existing roman culture. if you strip away the roman/latin cultural, social, and religious embellishments, then you just have christianity.
     
  20. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Briefly, how did the Catholi Church end up with a single head of heads (the pope). There is no equivalent of that really, not in Protestantism or Islam, for example?

    Does it ever benefit the religion to have a single head in this manner?
     

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