Why Judaism and Christianity reject Koran

Discussion in 'Islam' started by koranist, Feb 22, 2009.

  1. Out There

    Out There Servant of God

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2006
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is no evidence of change? You might want to look up the eminent scholar Geza Vermes and his writings on the Old and New Testaments. I am sure you have heard of Bart D. Ehrman. Do have a look at his best selling Misquoting Jesus which is a popularised version of his more technical work, Orthodox Corruption of Scripture for clarification on the changes made in the Bible whether theologically motivated or sheer incompetence on the part of scribes. You might also want to look up his teacher the late pre-eminent textual critic(both were from Princeton Theological Seminary) Bruce Metzger. I would also recommend the writings yet another highly noted Biblical scholar Raymond E. Brown whose views on the Bible concerning issues such as inerrance of scripture are comprehensively covered in his Response to 101 Questions on the Bible.

    What about hadith literature? The often repeated missionary propaganda that hadith was collected 200 years after Muhammad is nothing more than a stale myth. We have documented evidence from the time of the prophet s.a.w. himself on hadith collection such as that of Abdullah ibn Amar's Al-Sahifah al-sadiqah. A very early manuscript on hadith(PERF No. 731) can be found in Vienna at the Austrian National Library which is dated to 179 AH. It is an attestation to Imam Malik's famous Muwatta' to his own time.

    You said, "you mean, it whitewashes him. i don't know about you, but i find prophets of G!D to be more believable as human beings, not as perfect angels. i think it's a bit more likely that you're the people editing the Divine Message than us."

    Well, I have to disagree with such simplistic thinking. A Mahathma Gandhi is no less historically credible than a Hitler on the basis of character disposition. And no Muslim says that Muhammad s.a.w. was a perfect angel. In fact, the Prophet s.a.w. is rebuked a few times in the Qur'an itself for mistakes(not sins) such as in Surah 'Abasa which specifically addresses him in the initial lines for ignoring a poor blind man. I am not sure how one can convincingly say that a Prophet is one who massacres entire nations and cities leaving no one, not even the babies or even donkeys were spared. Such atrocities inscribed on the pages on the Tanakh are not to be found in Muhammad's s.a.w. history. Before you bring up the Banu Khuraizah affair allow me to just say that grown men are not hapless babies and women. Treachery deserves punishment even in the United States of America today which is supposedly the "land of the free".
     
  2. Out There

    Out There Servant of God

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2006
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    0
    We reject the Baha'i cult just like we reject the Ahmadi/Qadiyani cult on the basis of Qur'anic and prophetic sayings that Islam was completed in the Prophet's time and that Muhammad is the seal of prophethood, nay revelation itself. Such unequivocal statements of completion or non-continuation of scriptural revelation are not to be found on the pages of the Torah, Nevi'im or Ketuvim. The comparison offered does not stand. Why should Jews believe in the Qur'an? Because it is the fulfillment of God's promise as we have discussed in another thread and it corrects misinformation in your scriptures one of which is concerning Noah and his sons. We can discuss that later if you wish.
     
  3. Out There

    Out There Servant of God

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2006
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wonder if it would be possible for you to write without insults i.e. ad hominem? I find it strange that you would use such derogatory terms as "bollocks" and "stupidity" but in the same breath say "b'shalom". lol..I am forced to wonder if you have a multiple personality thing going on there.
     
  4. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,532
    Likes Received:
    10
  5. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2008
    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you REALLY believe that Judaism is somehow more "new" than "paganism"????

    Where did you come up with that notion??????????????????????
     
  6. koranist

    koranist Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    You sound like a Sunni defending hadiths. :D

    Or a Christian trying to convince himself that the Trinity is Biblical :D

    The reality is that the Old testament and the Talmud are two radically different religions that have very little to do with each other as the Quran and Sunnah have nothing to do with each other. But many Muslims seem to think they are connected. They just invoke abrogation everytime the Quran is not in agreement with Sunnah.
     
  7. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,749
    Likes Received:
    4
    perhaps you haven't been paying attention? i am jewish, so it is a matter of supreme indifference to me what scholars and christians disagree about as far as the provenance or alteration of the "new testament" goes, as the NT is not a jewish sacred text. similarly, the only part of the so-called "old testament" that traditional jews maintain has not changed and was direct Revelation from G!D is the Torah, by which i mean the pentateuch or five books of moses. let me be absolutely clear: when i say that there is no evidence to back up your claim that the Qur'an 'clarifies things that have been changed in the previous scriptures' i mean two things:

    1. the Qur'an does not specifically identify any piece of text that has been changed. as far as i am aware it just makes generalised claims, which are then interpreted by people like you with reference to scholarly claims in which, in terms of the Torah at least, we put no credence.
    2. nothing that the Qur'an mentions, to my knowledge, has not already been exhaustively discussed by jewish traditional sources in search of its compatibility with the Torah.

    consequently, the Qur'an cannot possibly "clarify" any of these things, because they have not been identified by the Qur'an. the accusation is a vague one and won't cut it as a serious criticism. go on, give me *one* verse that the Qur'an specifically mentions and we'll discuss it.

    it's simplistic thinking to suggest that biblical figures could be less than perfect? either they're real human beings or they're not. i like the fact that each has a human dimension.

    i'm not saying that extremes of character disposition aren't possible, i'm saying that the evidence of ambivalent character disposition is not evidence that a biblical character has been unrealistically depicted, but rather the opposite. what next? are we supposed to believe that moses didn't really have a stutter, or that jacob didn't intend to deceive esau? these things *make* our patriarchs and prophets human, they make them people we can relate to, not perfect, angelic individuals.

    such texts are of course extremely challenging and troubling for both yourselves and for us - i note that you pre-emptively opt to excuse muhammad's actions. i do not attempt to excuse some of the things that went on during the conquest of canaan although, if you know how to read the text properly it is arguable whether it really means what you think it means based on the fact that there are plenty of survivors to cause trouble later on, so perhaps a literal reading ought to be questioned. i could, if i wish, say that "seven nations" idolatry such as the amalekites practised is so evil that to eliminate it would be your reaction just as much as my bronze age ancestors. back then, war was an all-out, all-or-nothing commitment. but i'm not. instead of trying to play moral one-upmanship as you are trying to do, the question should really be whether such things are permitted nowadays. in that case, we can unequivocally say not - as we prohibited them explicitly 2000 years ago. can you say the same, or is it still a matter of debate in some parts of your religion whether innocents can be harmed in the name of G!D?

    well, we reject christianity and islam on the basis that our canon was closed after prophecy ceased amongst the jewish people. these religions, if they are from G!D, are not intended to replace our own, as G!D clearly Stated in the Torah that "these things are to be a statute to you FOREVER", not "until i send you a new religion".

    why not? we didn't envisage you lot trying to use our texts to give yourselves credibility, because our texts are intended for us, not for you.

    you have now crossed the line from dialogue into proselytisation. i have heard what you said, understood it and reject it unequivocally. i've heard the "call to islam" and i've told you why it makes no sense to me. am i now a "kaafir", according to you?

    the reality is nothing of the sort. you are obviously ignorant of the talmudic tradition if you think it has nothing to do with the "old testament" - it talks about little else. go on, karaite, what talmud have you actually studied? give me an example of this "radical difference", rather than making daft generalisations that reveal your lack of education.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,533
    Likes Received:
    2,400
    Could you attempt to look at what you wrote as an outsider would?

    First an oversimplified description of the situation.

    Now you can't understand why A or B don't recognize C, but it is perfectly clear to you why D should be discarded by all?

    News flash....we are all in the same boat, believing our prophets, and leaders and discarding those that came after us....

    The question is; why are any of us surprised at this?
     
  9. 301ouncer

    301ouncer New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Because of no son of god.
     

Share This Page