God the Pornagrapher II

[Nick_A]

One of the most distressing threads I've ever been involved with was the "God is a Pornographer" thread. It had to do with sexting. The only solution was to put them in jail since their bodies created by God are pornograhic.

The conclusion was that because of so much righteous indignation it was proven that no one knows how to communicate to a fourteen year old girl about sex and her body so leave it to the police. The thread was closed and righteous indignation won out.

The question becomes what actually was won? To me all it means is that collective ignorance and righteous indignation to defend this ignorance doesn't lead anywhere other then allowing those expressing it to feel justified.

So now, one such teen commits suicide. All your righteous indignation and threats of jail no longer means anything. You've won but I really don't see what others with this same mindset have won.

Put down esoteric Christianity all you want but I do know that none of the men and women I know would be incapable of communicating to such a girl. But, righteous indignation has won and I hope all expressing it in place of reason are happy with their victory. Yes, throw them in jail for child pornography. Call them whores and sluts instead of relating something of meaning. See what you get.

Her teen committed suicide over ?sexting? - Parenting & Family- msnbc.com

The image was blurred and the voice distorted, but the words spoken by a young Ohio woman are haunting. She had sent nude pictures of herself to a boyfriend. When they broke up, he sent them to other high school girls. The girls were harassing her, calling her a slut and a whore. She was miserable and depressed, afraid even to go to school.
And now Jesse Logan was going on a Cincinnati television station to tell her story. Her purpose was simple: “I just want to make sure no one else will have to go through this again.”
The interview was in May 2008. Two months later, Jessica Logan hanged herself in her bedroom. She was 18.

 

[Bandit]

skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, obama, skip, porn, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, obama, skip, porn, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, obama, skip, porn, skip, skip skip skip

 

[citizenzen]

If this were a poetry slam I could just make sense of it.

 

[greymare]

ok, so you want to go "there" again.
It was sad and horrible what this girl went through. And to think that she thought the only way through it was to suicide.
Put the blame all you like on others Nicka......... But......... others (teenagers) have gone through similar and worse and havent suicided. It is a pity that she didnt get the help she needed. She could have really used support, not finger pointing.
"collective indignation" seems to be your new catch cry... The furore you caused on previous threads was that you were saying that child/teen porn was ok. It is not.
As previously stated numerous times by myself and others, she needed support and without it, welll............. we see the end result.

Now, children and especially teenagers can be the cruelest of cruel. We know, I am sure we all have horror stories from our younger days.....
No one here called her any names and it is unwarranted that you generalise this just because we do not agree with your warped mind...

Now, i know you are going to go on about "the choir" or "platos cave" or some such rubbish, just give it a rest and try digging some more dirt on Obama,,,, ( oh dont worry, no ones listening to that either)

 

[Nick_A]

ok, so you want to go "there" again.
It was sad and horrible what this girl went through. And to think that she thought the only way through it was to suicide.
Put the blame all you like on others Nicka......... But......... others (teenagers) have gone through similar and worse and havent suicided. It is a pity that she didnt get the help she needed. She could have really used support, not finger pointing.
"collective indignation" seems to be your new catch cry... The furore you caused on previous threads was that you were saying that child/teen porn was ok. It is not.
As previously stated numerous times by myself and others, she needed support and without it, welll............. we see the end result.

Now, children and especially teenagers can be the cruelest of cruel. We know, I am sure we all have horror stories from our younger days.....
No one here called her any names and it is unwarranted that you generalise this just because we do not agree with your warped mind...

Now, i know you are going to go on about "the choir" or "platos cave" or some such rubbish, just give it a rest and try digging some more dirt on Obama,,,, ( oh dont worry, no ones listening to that either)

No grey, that thread wasn't about whether child porn is OK. It was about the idea that a child's body is now considered pornographic by definition so must be hidden as evil. Porn is considered evil. Therefore a fourteen year old girl that takes nude pictures of her evil body and gives them to her boyfriend is dealing in child pornography so she should go to jail. Her intent must be considered the same as the pro who abuses kids and profits off of selling child porn.

All the righteous indignation proved that the no one knew how to communicate to a fourteen year old girl about sex and her body. It is the same IRL. The adults express righteous indignation and the young copy them and torment the girl. So the girl commits suicide.

The only help she needed was from some that could relate. All she found was righteous indignation and threats of jail. This is the norm The real horror is that we don't know how to communicate anything meaningful to a fourteen year old girl about sex and her body. We are limited to religious fundamentalism and psychobabble so prefer to call it evil and make it a police matter.

All I'm doing here is posting the natural results of this mindset you justify. Rather then justifying it, I believe it sad that no one can communicate meaningfully to a fourteen year old girl about sex and her body so as to deal with sexting in a human way that wouldn't lead to suicide which is probable through righteous indignation.

You don't want to listen. You are not alone. People don't either want to listen or think. So the results of denial includes suicide. Your choice; not mine.

 

[greymare]

NICKA...........
Listen to what i am saying
Read what i am typing

we agreed that she needed communication and support.
You are blaming people LIKE ME for her suicide.
And NO it wasnt righteous indignation, it was concern for her mental welfare.

The TRUTH of the matter is that she was a GIRL not an adult.
I previously stated that if she was talked to about a HEALTHY body image.. ie: love who you are, as you were made...... not trying to look like models in a magazine, not dressing etc for the "boys"... this tradgedy could have been averted.
I do not in anyway justify the actions of her, her exboyfriend, her class mates or the end result.

DO YOU GET THAT?

Clearly she didnt get the help and support she needed.

 

[seattlegal]

I agree with Nick?

 

[Nick_A]

NICKA...........
Listen to what i am saying
Read what i am typing

we agreed that she needed communication and support.
You are blaming people LIKE ME for her suicide.
And NO it wasnt righteous indignation, it was concern for her mental welfare.

The TRUTH of the matter is that she was a GIRL not an adult.
I previously stated that if she was talked to about a HEALTHY body image.. ie: love who you are, as you were made...... not trying to look like models in a magazine, not dressing etc for the "boys"... this tradgedy could have been averted.
I do not in anyway justify the actions of her, her exboyfriend, her class mates or the end result.

DO YOU GET THAT?

Clearly she didnt get the help and support she needed.

Read what I am saying. You are just spouting psychobabble. Who is capable now of giving help and support when we prefer it to be a police matter? What the heck is a healthy body image? It is something you'd like your boyfriend to see. I am saying that we don't know how to comminicate anything meaningful to a fourteen year old girl about sex and her body. Psychobabble cliches don't cut it anymore than fundamentalist dictates about the evil body. You can defend our ignorance. I refuse to do so and prefer to say it like it is and addmit what this ignorance leads to.

 

[seattlegal]

Read what I am saying. You are just spouting psychobabble. Who is capable now of giving help and support when we prefer it to be a police matter? What the heck is a healthy body image? It is something you'd like your boyfriend to see. I am saying that we don't know how to comminicate anything meaningful to a fourteen year old girl about sex and her body. Psychobabble cliches don't cut it anymore than fundamentalist dictates about the evil body. You can defend our ignorance. I refuse to do so and prefer to say it like it is and addmit what this ignorance leds to.

This is a really important point, especially since children are becoming sexually mature earlier and earlier. Gotta face it. The old ways no longer fit today's situation, and the children are all too often left to fend for themselves when confronted by their hormones.

 

[Bandit]

Put the blame all you like on others

I get it now greymare. Everytime someone commits suicide, the laws must be changed. Everytime people make fun of others, the laws must be changed. It is very important that as soon as chidlren go thru puberty they pass as many nude pics as they can out all over the internet thru their phones. This must be made legal. This will stop suicides and make the world a better place. My nude legal nude pics should have been on the web at age seven for all the creepy people to have because that is when I started exploring my own body. If you do not agree with me, *snickers* then it is your fault <put guilt trip here> and you are pyscho and you are the one to blame for everyones suicides.

digging some more dirt on Obama

skip skip skip, obama, skip, porn, skip skip skip

 

[Nick_A]

This is a really important point, especially since children are becoming sexually mature earlier and earlier. Gotta face it. The old ways no longer fit today's situation, and the children are all too often left to fend for themselves when confronted by their hormones.

Very true sg. Conditions are different now and largely artificially created, so the problem requires an understanding that we lack and prefer instead police action and righteous indignation.

You know more about the Eastern traditions than I do but I know how much esoteric Christianity understands the nature of sex energy. It is the creative energy that not only is used in the creation of babies but also of our souls. It is a powerful energy that should feed the entire body or what is called the "Temple of the Holy Spirit." Have you noticed how many bodies in ancient Egyptian drawings appear as almost a swimmers body. I believe it was because they faithfully practiced the stretching of Yoga. Part of the benefit is to circulate energies within the body and inwardly balancing it.

This whole question of sex and the body should be answered by religion but since it has become secularized, it no longer can do it and just serves political purposes and expressing righteous indignation.

How are women obsessed with artificial creations such as programs like "Desperate Housewives" supposed to understand anything worth passing on to their daughters? All the negativity is just enhanced through suppressed sex energy. It is what makes it sell. Sex energy is being used to enhance our negative emotions rather then to nourish our inner lives. Instead of trying to understand these things by first admitting our ignorance, we prefer righteous indignation.

That is really all this is about. We don't want to admit that we know so little about the body that we don't even understand its purpose or how sex energy is both used for its benefit and its detriment. As a result it is not uncommon for a young girl to kill themselves as a result of our justified ignorance.

Here is a sobering fact for you

SafeYouth.org - Youth Suicide Facts

Suicide was the third leading cause of death for young people 10 to 19 years old in 2000.[1] More teenagers die from suicide than from cancer, heart disease, AIDS, birth defects, stroke, pneumonia and influenza, and chronic lung disease combined.[2] In 2000, 1921 young people ages 10 to 19 died by suicide in the United States.[3]

This is a crisis of the spirit. It is normal for a society that values psychobabble and the police to becoming able to communicate the value of the body, sex, and sex energy to the next generation through the quality of our own lives. When we don't want to admit our ignorance and just hide behind righteous indignation, what else can be expected?

 

[juantoo3]

Nick A, I think I get the gist of what you are saying, and like Seattlegal I think there is a ring of truth to it.

However, I also think that a lot of what and whom you blame is misplaced. I would further add that blame placing does nothing to alleviate the problem. Finger pointing is seldom helpful when it is not specifically requested.

Momma told me anybody can sit back and bitch about a problem...the question really comes down to "what are *you* going to do to fix it?" Otherwise, from my point of view, you are no better or worse than those you rail at.

 

[nativeastral]

never talk about politics sex or religion hahahaha, we're human right?

reminds me of a book l read by john berger on how women perceive themselves through the perceptions of men who ulti -mately perceive them as objects of desire/fertility [his book was thru the lens of the history of art seeping into the culture].
YouTube - WAYS OF SEEING (episode two - female nude) 1/4

the prohibitions relating to the demear etc of women is still practised in orthodoxy for a reason - kashrut, haram - separation- seen as control and inequality in the post feminist liberal west; but sacred/holy because of the acknowledgement of female creative power therefore fraught and fragile even explosive.

look how long it took for christianity to accept spiritual leaders. Letters on the Equality of the Sexes, Sarah Grimke, 1837

all for the same reasons - our sexuality..we now have promise keepers in the u.s. it wont work here; the percentage of religious adherents needs to be high to make such an impact.. so back to education whilst young.

but this is a culture of unregulated 'free' information thru tv/internet..mammon
why certain countries ban youtube etc...corrupting the young

must admit even l was shocked at my daughters photos she took when transferring her files onto a computer..shockingly provocative [but no less arty using photoshop!].

homos,transgenders..taboos now taken for granted now out in the open [but was always there but given special status in certain cultures - shamens ie was spiritualised] ...tattoos..bodyart...this is my body, it is only a body and l will do what l want with it..this is now the culture and seen even as spirituality, tribal, reactive against a hypocritical society.

suicide being the ultimate act of self responsibility and angst within a warped culture with relative values. euthanasia is another hot topic but l digress.

 

[Nick_A]

Nick A, I think I get the gist of what you are saying, and like Seattlegal I think there is a ring of truth to it.

However, I also think that a lot of what and whom you blame is misplaced. I would further add that blame placing does nothing to alleviate the problem. Finger pointing is seldom helpful when it is not specifically requested.

Momma told me anybody can sit back and bitch about a problem...the question really comes down to "what are *you* going to do to fix it? Otherwise, from my point of view, you are no better or worse than those you rail at.

You've got it backwards. Those placing the blame are doing so in righteous indignation. I am supporting Pogo:

"I have seen the enemy and he is us." ~ Pogo

It is our justified ignorance that allows us to collectively act in ways that further similar suicides. We don't want to admit it and instead prefer expressions of righteous indignation and passing the buck to the police.

Admitting it isn't pointing fingers. It is what happens and the results can lead to suicide as in this case. When so much of the life of the young is concerned with this "education" inflicted on them, what else can be expected when even a moments silence at the beginning of the day is frowned upon much less a period of stretching to start the day off right.

People here have preferred shouting the issue down through expressions of righteous indignation rather then being open to the possibility that perhaps we are the problem as suggested by Pogo. This is what happens. All I am doing is showing that this technique that justifies our ignorance can lead to suicides.

A person has a choice. They can either continue with righteous indignation and passing the buck or they can admit their ignorance and open themselves to learning about the basics of life such as with sex, sex energy, and the body. Unfortunately IMO, society has shown itself to prefer remaining in ignorance so we have a spiritual crisis that produces suicides. It is our collective choice and I hope those that have made it are happy with it.

 

[juantoo3]

You've got it backwards.

That is certainly a possibility, I am human.

Those placing the blame are doing so in righteous indignation.

That is not a presumption I am prepared to make. The Nazi's afterall, were righteously indignant at the Jews, cripples, crazies, homosexuals, Gypsies and mentally challenged. Did that make them correct to exploit these people to death, and then gas them in death camps?

It seems to me one person's righteous indignation is another person's overzealous lynch mob.

It is our justified ignorance that allows us to collectively act in ways that further similar suicides. We don't want to admit it and instead prefer expressions of righteous indignation and passing the buck to the police.

Yes, I agree there is a general tendency these days in Socialist and semi-Socialist states to trend towards shifting family values, virtues and responsibilities onto the state in lieu of the traditional family. That is a double edged sword. It's difficult to hold daddy responsible if daddy was a hit and run one night stand, or simply a sperm donor. It's difficult to hold the family accountable if what constitutes a family is a moving target...all too often the state *is* the family in the case of guardian ad litem and foster care. Even these programs hold the potential for evil abuse, but without them the evil is compounded exponentially.

Admitting it isn't pointing fingers.

It is when it is presented as "they" instead of "we." Do you see yourself as a part of the problem, too? Or are you the savior come to redeem us with your righteous indignation?

It is what happens and the results can lead to suicide as in this case. When so much of the life of the young is concerned with this "education" inflicted on them, what else can be expected when even a moments silence at the beginning of the day is frowned upon much less a period of stretching to start the day off right.

There is a quote I heard once, I don't know who to credit, who said something like, "those who believe they can stop prayer in school aren't waiting for the calculus final to begin." There are no atheists in foxholes under fire.

I could stretch this out considerably just on the issue of separation of church and state...an issue I am in firm agreement with...but it is commonly overlooked and forgotten that the first Amendment in the Bill of Rights is the Free Exercise of Religion. Kids can pray in school, but the teacher can't make them pray, and the state cannot enforce a particular faith (or no faith, the "religion of secularism" {Judge Rehnquist}).

Once one applies that to its natural conclusion, one can see that "righteous indignation" it not something our particular government can endorse nor abide on a large scale. Considering the call to arms that was overwhelmingly responded to during WWII against the righteous indignation expressed by Germany and the Axis, I think it is fair to say that our culture recognizes the inherent abuses of righteous indignation on a wholesale level...or at least we did after the fact when all of those people spilled out of the concentration camps.

People here have preferred shouting the issue down through expressions of righteous indignation rather then being open to the possibility that perhaps we are the problem as suggested by Pogo. This is what happens. All I am doing is showing that this technique that justifies our ignorance can lead to suicides.

A person has a choice. They can either continue with righteous indignation and passing the buck or they can admit their ignorance and open themselves to learning about the basics of life such as with sex, sex energy, and the body. Unfortunately IMO, society has shown itself to prefer remaining in ignorance so we have a spiritual crisis that produces suicides. It is our collective choice and I hope those that have made it are happy with it.

I don't disagree with you, but I do think there are better ways of going about what you are after. You can't throw someone's taboo in their face and expect a conciliatory attitude to be returned.

Learning is a complex matter that requires a particular atmosphere. The least little deviation from that perfect situation makes learning more difficult, and just a little more deviation makes learning impossible. Part of that atmosphere is the willingness of the person to learn. You can't teach an old dog a new trick, some people are set in their ways and are stubborn to learning. Others must be approached in a non-threatening manner just to begin, and they must be willing to learn.

You can't ramrod learning into anybody, one would think that after all the soapbox standers and snake oil peddlers and self-annointed prophets that people would comprehend this.

A teacher piques interest, a teacher encourages others to learn...and most important; a teacher never stops learning, even from the students. Learning is most effective when it is a two way dialogue.

 

[wil]

What the heck is a healthy body image? It is something you'd like your boyfriend to see. I am saying that we don't know how to comminicate anything meaningful to a fourteen year old girl about sex and her body.

And now Jesse Logan was going on a Cincinnati television station to tell her story. Her purpose was simple: “I just want to make sure no one else will have to go through this again.”

It appears she wanted to tell young girls something meaningful about their bodies...don't send pictures to your boyfriend or anybody period.

This is the lesson, I don't care if it is the law, the law didn't kill her, the shame caused when her boyfriend sent out the pix. And her girlfriends, and classmates refered to her as a slut. This is not adults nor the law this is her peers.

The problem is solved, mitigated by teaching kids DONT SEND NUDE PIX OF YOURSELF TO ANYONE!! There are countless women who in their older years are ashamed of what they got themselves into as a youth.

Prudishness aside, whatever, if it comes back to haunt you we need to drill it into everyones head to protect them.

Suicide was the third leading cause of death for young people 10 to 19 years old in 2000.[1] More teenagers die from suicide than from cancer, heart disease, AIDS, birth defects, stroke, pneumonia and influenza, and chronic lung disease combined.[2] In 2000, 1921 young people ages 10 to 19 died by suicide in the United States.[3]

Pardon me, but isn't this a ludicrous irrevelant statistic...we'd be in one hell of a shape if kids were dying of diseases that are common with age stroke, lung disease, AIDS, heart disease, cancer, birth defects...wake up, most of these take decades of abuse to manifest and birth defects most of them would be already dead by 10. The suicide rate is appaling but using nonsense statistics makes fools of those who use them.

 

[juantoo3]

The suicide rate is appaling but using nonsense statistics...

Good point wil. I thought about and then neglected to add that while suicide may well be the leading cause of death in teenagers, not all teenage suicides are over nude pictures or bullies calling names.

 

[Nick_A]

That is certainly a possibility, I am human.



That is not a presumption I am prepared to make. The Nazi's afterall, were righteously indignant at the Jews, cripples, crazies, homosexuals, Gypsies and mentally challenged. Did that make them correct to exploit these people to death, and then gas them in death camps?

It seems to me one person's righteous indignation is another person's overzealous lynch mob.



Yes, I agree there is a general tendency these days in Socialist and semi-Socialist states to trend towards shifting family values, virtues and responsibilities onto the state in lieu of the traditional family. That is a double edged sword. It's difficult to hold daddy responsible if daddy was a hit and run one night stand, or simply a sperm donor. It's difficult to hold the family accountable if what constitutes a family is a moving target...all too often the state *is* the family in the case of guardian ad litem and foster care. Even these programs hold the potential for evil abuse, but without them the evil is compounded exponentially.



It is when it is presented as "they" instead of "we." Do you see yourself as a part of the problem, too? Or are you the savior come to redeem us with your righteous indignation?



There is a quote I heard once, I don't know who to credit, who said something like, "those who believe they can stop prayer in school aren't waiting for the calculus final to begin." There are no atheists in foxholes under fire.

I could stretch this out considerably just on the issue of separation of church and state...an issue I am in firm agreement with...but it is commonly overlooked and forgotten that the first Amendment in the Bill of Rights is the Free Exercise of Religion. Kids can pray in school, but the teacher can't make them pray, and the state cannot enforce a particular faith (or no faith, the "religion of secularism" {Judge Rehnquist}).

Once one applies that to its natural conclusion, one can see that "righteous indignation" it not something our particular government can endorse nor abide on a large scale. Considering the call to arms that was overwhelmingly responded to during WWII against the righteous indignation expressed by Germany and the Axis, I think it is fair to say that our culture recognizes the inherent abuses of righteous indignation on a wholesale level...or at least we did after the fact when all of those people spilled out of the concentration camps.



I don't disagree with you, but I do think there are better ways of going about what you are after. You can't throw someone's taboo in their face and expect a conciliatory attitude to be returned.

Learning is a complex matter that requires a particular atmosphere. The least little deviation from that perfect situation makes learning more difficult, and just a little more deviation makes learning impossible. Part of that atmosphere is the willingness of the person to learn. You can't teach an old dog a new trick, some people are set in their ways and are stubborn to learning. Others must be approached in a non-threatening manner just to begin, and they must be willing to learn.

You can't ramrod learning into anybody, one would think that after all the soapbox standers and snake oil peddlers and self-annointed prophets that people would comprehend this.

A teacher piques interest, a teacher encourages others to learn...and most important; a teacher never stops learning, even from the students. Learning is most effective when it is a two way dialogue.

Juan

It seems to me one person's righteous indignation is another person's overzealous lynch mob.

Agreed. Righteous indignation is not a measure of any objective good but just an expression of blind pride. That is the point. We either justify it in ourselves or see it for what it is.

there is a general tendency these days in Socialist and semi-Socialist states to trend towards shifting family values, virtues and responsibilities onto the state in lieu of the traditional family. That is a double edged sword. It's difficult to hold daddy responsible if daddy was a hit and run one night stand, or simply a sperm donor. It's difficult to hold the family accountable if what constitutes a family is a moving target...all too often the state *is* the family in the case of guardian ad litem and foster care. Even these programs hold the potential for evil abuse, but without them the evil is compounded exponentially.

Yes, I agree. All this and your next section on societal interaction is for me just normal expressions of humanity within Plato's cave. One day it is one thing and another on the next but everything is just a lawful result of conditioned reactions to external events normal for our collective quality of "being.".

It is when it is presented as "they" instead of "we." Do you see yourself as a part of the problem, too? Or are you the savior come to redeem us with your righteous indignation?

As I've said many times, my advantage is in my willingness to admit it. I am no savior.

I don't disagree with you, but I do think there are better ways of going about what you are after. You can't throw someone's taboo in their face and expect a conciliatory attitude to be returned.

I am interested in those that don't have to be talked down to and are open to admitting the human condition. As it is, society can do nothing now. It is caught up in politics so the genuine need for the essence of religion in education cannot manifest. Of course kids suffer for it but the point is that not all of them have to. It is possible that a minority as in this case of sexting will come to realize that this is madness. How can it be that we are not able to communicate something of value to a fourteen year old girl about sex, sex energy, and her body so as to not rely on righteous indignation and the police to handle it. Perhaps we can even avoid some possible suicides. It is possible a person will then seek to reason and experience out of the box so as to understand why everything is as it is. Perhaps if more brave ones can come along and begin to understand, there may be less suicides.

But we've learned that here as in real life, there is a tremendous resistance to understanding and a preference for righteous indignation and the police. All I am pointing out is that though it is the norm, these techniques can lead to suicide.

 

[Nick_A]

Wil

The problem is solved, mitigated by teaching kids DONT SEND NUDE PIX OF YOURSELF TO ANYONE!! There are countless women who in their older years are ashamed of what they got themselves into as a youth.

Prudishness aside, whatever, if it comes back to haunt you we need to drill it into everyones head to protect them.

It is precisely this attitude that will compel any young girl worth her salt to send nude pictures to her boyfriend. You've allowed the condemnations of external morality to take the place of the gradual revelations of inner morality. The trouble is that secularization has atrophied inner morality in most so who is left to awaken the young.

 

[wil]

Wil



It is precisely this attitude that will compel any young girl worth her salt to send nude pictures to her boyfriend. You've allowed the condemnations of external morality to take the place of the gradual revelations of inner morality. The trouble is that secularization has atrophied inner morality in most so who is left to awaken the young.

How old are your children Nick? Have you discussed this with them? Have you shown them the stories of women that committed suicide or lost careers or opportunities due to these pix being circulated?

I have. And also had my son and daughter sit and watch catch a predator with me. I could be 100% wrong in my parenting skills. As you say you think I am compelling my daughter to send nude pix of herself. I've asked her about this the last time you brought it up. She thinks you are a nut.

I apologize for what may be perceived as a personal attack, I am simply quoting a 15 year old girl on this matter. Nick, please tell me what your daughter thinks about this disscussion which you have such expertise.