God's Plan

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Azure24, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. Dream

    Dream Well-Known Member

    Feb 18, 2008
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    So much humility, so little time; but let me see how good my reading skills are.....
  2. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    But there's more... (Part Ten)


    Earlier I showed you from the Greek that there is water in this gulf or chasm. What could this be all about? Certainly there is no literal chasm between hades (unseen) and Abraham’s bosom. What or where is this great chasm? Does the Bible speak of a great chasm that has anything to do with salvation or rewards?
    When the Children of Israel made their exodus out of Egypt, they were on their way to the Promised Land. After receiving the Ten Commandments at Mt Sinai, where they stayed approximately one year, they headed north to Kadeshbarnea. They sent men to spy out the land. They were very close to Canaan. But God sentenced them to thirty-nine more years in the wilderness for their unbelief. How different they were from their ancient Father Abraham. After thirty-nine years they again headed north, only this time through Edom and Moab and approached the Jordan from the East. To get to the Promised Land they had to cross over the Jordan RiverValley.
    The River Jordan runs through a great chasm (or gulf).
    From Mt. Nebo Moses could see the Promised Land. The Jordan is in a huge chasm. It’s a "far" way to the other side. This chasm, in fact, is so large that it may well be one of the largest fault lines on earth! It starts on the southern boundaries of Turkey and runs through Palestine, through the Dead sea, trough the Red Sea, through Africa to Lake Victoria. But some scientists and geologists believe it continues through Africa and the South Pole and reemerges again in the Pacific Ocean. Now that’s a "Great Chasm."
    Because of Moses’ sin, God did not allow him to enter the Promised Land.
    Crossing "over Jordan" has always been used symbolically as a type of "salvation." But just as Israel couldn’t cross the Red Sea except by a miracle of parting the waters, so too, God supernaturally dried up the Jordan so that they could cross over. So literally, they didn’t "get wet" crossing the Jordan; they didn’t "get baptized." And neither did most of the rulers of the Jews "get baptized" at John’s baptisms either!
    It is always "God" who determines boundaries. Moses could not cross that chasm. And no one else could cross over except it were God’s intention. Just as Israel looked to the crossing over Jordan as their salvation in a new land, so we too, are looking for a future complete manifestation in Kingdom of God. And God alone determines who will and who won’t be in that Kingdom at this time.
    In a real sense we too go into the Kingdom of God by way of the Jordan! Jesus was baptized in the River Jordan (Mat. 3:13). And

    "...whoever are baptized into Christ Jesus, are baptized into His death. We, then were entombed together with Him through baptism into death ... For if we have become planted together in the likeness of His death, nevertheless we shall be of the resurrection also..." (Rom. 6:4-5).

    Mortality kept the majority of Israelites from entering the Promised Land. The generation that started on this journey died in the wilderness. Only a remnant crossed over Jordan under the leadership of Joshua. And likewise, today, God is calling only a "remnant" to salvation:
    "God does not thrust away His people whom He foreknew ... Thus, then, in the current era also, there has come to be a remnant according to the choice of grace" (Rom. 11:2 & 5).

    Mortality kept most of Israel out of the promised land, and by immortality we will enter the Kingdom of God in full spiritual glory:
    "Lo! a secret ... we all shall be changed ... at the last trump ... the dead will be roused ... this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality (I Cor. 15:51-53).

    And we enter the Kingdom under the new Joshua (Jesus) the Christ!
    No matter what this gulf or chasm symbolizes, it is only "man" who cannot cross it. Nothing is impossible with God. And God has given His Son authority over EVERYTHING. It is blasphemy to even think that there is a gulf that cannot be bridged by the Almighty Jesus Christ!

    Though not a place of eternal torture in fire, there is, nonetheless, a realm called "hades." It is an enemy of man and there are "gates" (not literal iron bar gates, but gates in the sense that passage is restricted to all who go therein). There are also gates and bars and locked doors in human prisons and penitentiaries.
    But there are guards and wardens who have "keys" to these doors and gates--they CAN BE OPENED. Well guess what? There are also "keys" to the gates of hades and it is NOT SATAN WHO POSSESSES THEM! IT IS NOT SATAN WHO HAS POWER OVER LIFE AND DEATH AND RESURRECTION! Rev. 1:18:
    "And I [Jesus] have the keys to hell [hades, the unseen] and of death."
    It is senseless to boast in having "the keys" if those keys will never be used to open the locks on the gates! Not only does Christ have the keys to all doors, HE IS THE DOOR! When we enter HIS door, He enters OUR door and we dine together. One day Judah will knock on Christ’s door and He WILL OPEN to them.
    Let’s read the good news:
    "...I will make a NEW Covenant with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah...For this is the Covenant that I WILL MAKE [future tense] with the house of Israel AFTER THOSE DAYS [those days of blindness and unregenerate hearts crying out from the symbolic gates of hades], saith the Lord; I will put my Laws INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people" (Heb. 8:8-10).
    Judah had the "promises," the "Oracles" of God, the "Royalty," the "Priesthood," the "Seat of Moses," the "Temple of God," the "Ark of the Covenant," enormous "wealth and riches," the "Possession of the Land," and the prophesied "Messiah." But they crucified their only Savior! For this they will certainly go through many "tormenting" trials and afflictions, but the fire of God’s Holy Spirit will cleanse them of their sins and they WILL BE SAVED--ALL OF THEM!
    "And thus ALL Israel shall be saved..." (Rom. 11:26)
    So sad that the Scriptures are not believed and the gospel rarely preached. People accuse me continually of teaching that unbelievers, and evil unrepentant and unregenerate sinners will be saved in THAT condition. I have never even suggested such a repugnant thing. God WILL CHANGE THEM. And it all begins in THE HEART! They will repent at the goodness of God.
    "And thus ALL Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer [that’s CHRIST!]. He WILL be turning away irreverence from Jacob [Jacob includes Israel and Judah], And this is My Covenant with them whenever I SHOULD BE ELIMINATING THEIR SINS" (Rom. 11:26-27).
    If we would but believe these simple and profound Scriptures there would never be such distortions of God’s Word being taught as is the case with this parable.
  3. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    (Part Eleven)


    "And in the unseen [hades], lifting up his eyes, existing in torments..."
    Judah [the Jews] proved to be totally unworthy of their high calling. Their heart’s turned from the declarations of God. Claiming Abraham as their father did not exonerate them either.
    "‘Our father is Abraham.’ Jesus answered them, ‘If you are children of Abraham, did you ever do the works of Abraham? Yet now you are seeking to kill me, a Man Who has spoken to you the truth..." (John 8:39-20)!
    Not only were they no longer "...of the faith of Abraham," but they had, in fact, utterly corrupted themselves. After King David, Solomon broke God's commandments and covenant (I Kg 11:11).
    King Rehoboam said:
    "And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke; my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions" (I Kg. 12:10-11).
    "...Judah kept not the commandments of the Lord..." (II Kg. 19:17)
    And King Manasseh, of Judah, went from bad to worse:
    "...he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord after the abominations of the heathen ... he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed ... he built altars in the house of the Lord ... he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the Lord. And he made his sons pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealeth with familiar spirits and wizards; he wrought much wickedness ... Manasseh seduced them to do more evil than did the nations whom the Lord destroyed..." (II Kg. 21:2-9).

    "Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah has profaned the holiness of the Lord which He loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god." (Mal. 2:11).

    According to a "literal" teaching of this parable, the Rich man did nothing to deserve his torment. But once we identify this Rich man, however, we find a mountain of sins and evils that are attributed to him:
    When John the baptist saw these same descendants of the Jews, the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptisms, he remarked: "progeny of vipers."
    Our Lord used the most derogatory language possible in describing the Jews of the first century:
    "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good..." (Mat. 12:34)!
    "And evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign..." (Mat. 12:39)!

    And many more...Read Mat...

    Yes, there is more than ample reason for "
    Judah" finding himself in a "place of torment!" Can we see how God combines them all together? Christ said:
    "Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets" and "Ye fill up then the measure of your fathers" (Ver. 32).
    So why shouldn’t Christ picture the Jews in hades viewing this disaster of their race? Of course it is figurative! God often uses just such figurative language
    "...he voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground" (Gen. 4:10)
    In Revelation chapter 6 the dead souls of those slain for the Word of God are crying out. This too is figurative. God wouldn’t allow His Conscious Saints to be all piled up on a bloody heap under an altar for thousands of years. Jonah was literally in "...the fish’s belly" (Jonah 2:1), but figuratively he called it "...the belly of hell [sheol=IMPERCEPTIBLE]" (Jonah 2:2).
    And so we have the Rich man (
    Judah) "crying out from hades." Figuratively, it has great emotional power. The Jews corrupted themselves. In the person of Judah they see the result of their ways. Notice that the Rich man never said one word in his own defense. He knew what kind of a people he was. I find it hard to believe what I am reading when I see the terminology our Lord used against the Jews and their forefathers. Really, consider His words: adulterous, evil, transgressors, faithless, perverse, hypocrites, murderers, blind guides, fools, generation of snakes.
    The Jews were given so much by God, but showed ever so little appreciation to God! They have suffered like few races of people have ever suffered. Lazarus, on the other hand, lived an untarnished life of faithfulness, and yet is promised nothing from God--neither material blessings nor spiritual blessings. In life he received "evil things." Abraham considered him worthy of inheriting all his possessionis. God, on the other hand, disinherited him. This was an "evil" to Eliezer. It was God’s wisdom in bringing this evil on Eliezer.
    Little did these Jews know at the time that Christ spoke this parable, that it would be only thirty some years future that their beloved Jerusalem would once again be destroyed. But this time, God would also take from them the Temple and the Ark of the Covenant as well. And little did the Gentiles know that Saul [Paul] was already being prepared to take God’s spiritual blessings "to the nations." It will be Eliezer himself who will be the first Gentile to not only justify God in His actions, but glorify Him for the marvelous blessings that God has bestowed on the Gentiles.
    For nearly two thousand years the Jews have been without the ark of the covenant or a Temple. The Jews have wandered from country to country for centuries never even having a country they could call their own until 1948 They have been persecuted everywhere they lived! This greatest persecution and slaughter took place during Hitler’s death camps when reportedly six to seven million Jews were exterminated!
    The Rich man said " I am tormented in this flame." If one checks all the parables it becomes evident that most of them were prophecies. And therefore "flames" is most appropriate in describing the plight of the Jews through the millennia. Not just the "Flames of Anti-Semitism," but even literally--remember "Hitler’s ovens?"
    I remember the words of a Jewish teenager after the Holocaust, bemoaning: "The world stood still while the Jews burned. The pain! The pain!" Yes, Judah is still crying out from the unseen.
    And so the Rich man’s thoughts turn to "his father’s house" and his "five brothers." What will happen to them? Even if they didn’t hear Moses and the prophets, surely, if "someone should be going to them from the dead, they will be repenting."
    "Yet he said to him, ‘If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead.’"
    Well how could Abraham know that for a fact? Because it is really Christ who is speaking, and it’s a parable, and it also is a prophecy of things to come, and Christ knows all.
    Ironically, the only person ever resurrected from the dead that we know by "name" at this time was Martha’s brother Lazarus. Did that miracle persuade the Jews? Actually, yes, many.
    "Many of the Jews, then, who came to Mary and gaze at what Jesus does, believe in Him" (Jn 11:45).
    Yet when other Jews reported this miracle back to the Pharisees
    "From that day, they [the Jewish leaders] consult that they should kill Him" (Jn. 11:53)!
    It seems like it’s always the religious leaders that have the most trouble believing!
    But how many of these "many who believed" stayed faithful? When Christ began teaching them really "spiritual things," many could not handle it. Christ told them that "The flesh is not benefiting anything" (Jn 6:63). That was more than they would tolerate as most "Christians" today do not tolerate such a thought either, and therefore:
    "From that time many of His disciples went back, and walked NO MORE with Him" (Jn. 6:65-66)!
    This parable, however, is not speaking about Lazarus’ resurrection, but Christ’s resurrection from the dead. All of Judea did not know of the resurrection of Lazarus, but everyone heard about the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Not only the Jewish leaders who killed Him, but all Jerusalem, all of the Rich man’s brothers and everywhere the descendants of his brothers were scattered: (1) Jerusalem, (2) Judea, (3) Samaria, (4) The limits of the land (Acts 1:8), and (5) to the dispersed among the nations. And the message sent to all these Jews, everywhere, was that the Christ whom they crucified has risen from the dead.

  4. Dream

    Dream Well-Known Member

    Feb 18, 2008
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    Interesting reading, and I had not considered those meanings in the parable before. There is insight and I think that I agree with you about the meaning. That being said, I have a few questions. Also, there are some additional criticisms and extra conclusions you have added which I disagree with, and I'll air them.

    I can see how Judah could be the rich man in the parable and recognize the astonishing similarity between 'Lazarus' and 'Eliezar'. It's a cool discovery, however I think a replacement of Jews is not intended. Perhaps reconsider that statement. There is a very rich list in the Pentateuch of later-born sons succeeding firstborns in terms of inheritance: Cain & Abel, Shem & Ham, Jacob & Esau, Ephraim & Manasseh, Hezron & Perez, etc.... To Jews these originally may represent non-spiritual people vs. spiritual receiving God's favor. This was probably a basic 'Sunday school lesson' for Jews and maybe still is. Perhaps Jesus' parable is speaking about this as well. Paul definitely refers to these examples, when he discusses the lost generation (as you brought up). Only he and Peter don't seem to interpret it as Gentile vs. Jew with finality. I think it would not be possible within the framework of Christianity for Jews to lose their favor, assuming an honest, promise keeping God. The 'Remnant' always go on and have more favored descendants. These cannot lose their Abrahamic status. They are fore-ordained 'in Abraham', meaning Scripture says they are included in specific promises specifically made to that man. The worst that should happen is that a part of one generation be lost, as happened once the wilderness. Then things go back to normal. In Acts, Peter does not ever say Israel is lost, but warns those he calls his brothers to save themselves 'from this crooked generation'. Those who listened to Peter, it says they were 'cut to the heart', meaning literally that their hearts were softened. Returning to Paul, he never ever ever says that Jews lose their place, but only that Gentiles can get grafted onto the same family tree as a result of 1 (one) generation's failure.

    I disagree with calling it "heresy of the darkest kind," which is too strong even if it does seem heresy by some interpretations. Christian texts emphasize love much over and above knowledge. All knowledge is treated as something that only puffs up. Heresy is really much worse than just misinterpreting things, although there may have been true heresy in the past which might have caused damage to information. Even so, clearly people can be born in ignorance, thus showing that to God ignorance is not the worst thing. Heresy is more like false witness against someone -- intentionally harming them for personal gain, specifically against those whom God loves. Mere ignorance or misunderstanding is human, and is covered by love. "Love covers a multitude of sins".

    I have seen many people make a big mistake, which is they decide God has stamped them with approval and form a closed group to rear their kids in and sort of try to 'Hold on' to what they've got, which is impossible. There is no guarantee your ows kids/disciples/descendants will benefit from any discovery you make, so don't circle your wagons or start yet another enlightened group. We are all tempted to do that, but its counterproductive. I never fully sought out all of this info the way you have but mostly stumbled into other people's work, though you can see I have made some of my own conclusions and investigations. Spiritual blindness is hardness of heart. They are the same thing, and that's why the knowledge itself isn't as big a deal as it seems. All of the conclusions you've reached have been found many times over, so it is for your own good that you sought them out -- and for my good too because I also benefitted from sharing in the fruit of your labor.
  5. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    I understand Dream, but....

    Here comes the best Part...(Part Twelve- One)


    Judah did not obey God through most of their long history. The Jews as a nation did not repent at the preaching of John the Baptist. They killed their own Savior!
    "Let all the house of Israel know certainly, then, that God Makes Him Lord as well as Christ--this Jesus Whom you [Jews] crucify!" (Acts 2:36).
    But Christ forgave them before He even died:
    "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).
    He commissioned his apostles to herald the good news of His resurrection and the coming Kingdom of God to them again, but again, as a nation, the Jews rejected Him.
    So now what? So then Christ calls Saul to be "Paul." And so Paul preaches and teaches in Jerusalem. And what kind of reception did Paul and his message receive?
    "Now he [Paul] argued in the synagogue on every sabbath ... Paul was pressed in the word, certifying to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. Now at their [the Jews] resisting and blaspheming, shaking out his garments, he said to them, ‘Your blood be on your head! Clear am I! From now on I SHALL GO TO THE NATIONS" (Acts 18:4-6).

    Just as Christ prophesied

    "...neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead."

    The Scriptures do plainly state that the Jews shall yet find salvation through Christ’s Sacrifice, because it was God who blinded them in the first place so that they would not and could not understand and repent! Isaiah prophesied that they would not repent and so Christ did not heal them (Mat. 13:1915). "...us [Gentiles], whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also..." (Rom.. 9:24). And
    "I shall be calling those who are not My people [poor and wretched people like Lazarus--Gentiles] ‘My people,’" (Rom. 9:25).

    Yes ALL PEOPLE will be GOD’S PEOPLE!

    If that thought doesn’t bring joy to our hearts, I don’t know what could. And
    "I became disclosed to those [Gentiles] who are not inquiring for Me" (Rom. 10:20).
    Since the time that Paul said "From now on I shall go to the nations," the Jews have, except for rare and individual cases, rejected Christ risen from the dead. But millions of poor rejected people like Lazarus have been brought into Abraham’s bosom, into a close and intimate relationship with God Himself.

    What about these Jews then? Is the Rich man [Judah, the Jews, the whole house of Israel] going to suffer in a fancied Christian Hell of devils and flames of torment for all eternity? Why can’t we believe the Scriptures? And not just one or two, but hundreds and thousands of Scriptures that point to the fact that all is of God. God is operating all.
    Many years ago I learned something most profound:

    "The ‘blind’ can’t see!"

    I know, it sounds stupid!!!

    Not many theologians believe that. Surely, if we present it in just the right way, they will see. No, they won’t. If they get sick enough of their life and sins, then they will see. No, they won’t. If we tell them often enough and with enough conviction, with hundreds of scriptures, and with charts and diagrams, and with analogies and examples, surely then at least "some" of the blind will see. No, they won’t. I’ll tell you why. Because the blind cannot see. I told you it was profound. You can hold it closer to their face, you can shout, you can shine a bright light on it. It doesn’t matter, "The blind can’t see!"
    Christendom teaches that if people want to see and understand, then they can. It's all up to them. No it’s not. I know people who are physically blind, and they want to see, but they can’t because the blind can’t see.
    When God Almighty "blinds" someone, they cannot see. I do not entertain any such notion that this paper will persuade anyone who is blind, to see it’s truth, unless God uses it to open their mind and remove the blindness. Let the Scriptures speak:
    "Does not God thrust away His people?... God DOES NOT thrust away His people whom He fore knew" (Rom. 11:1-2).

    "Thus, then, in the current era also, there has come to be a remnant according to the choice [God’s choice] of grace" (Rom. 11:8).

    "What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen [those God chose] encountered it. Now the rest [the rest of the Jews, all the rest of Israel] were calloused..." (Rom. 11:7).
    Who calloused them? Who is operating all? Now pay close attention to this next verse. I just checked twenty-six translations and the Greek Text to be sure I’m right on this point, and they all say same the same thing.
    "GODgives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day" (Rom. 11:8).
    "Till this very day," was written 2000 years ago, and yet "till this very day" today, as a race, as a nation, as a religion, and as a people, the Jews have universally rejected their only Savior Jesus Christ.
    Yes it was "God" Who did these things! Why would God do such a thing? Is there some purpose to it all? Yes there is.
    "But in their [the Jews] offense is the salvation of the nations, to provoke them to jealousy (Rom. 11:11)


    Well, since it was "God" who blinded the Jews and caste them away, will He ever take them back and remove their blindness?
    "For if their [the Jews] casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the TAKING BACK be if not life from among the dead?" (Rom. 11:15).
    "...that callousness [by God Ver. 8], in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering. And thus ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED..." (Rom. 11:26)!!

    Look at Ezekiel 37 beginning in verse 13
    "And ye shall know that I am the Lord when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves." (Notice they come out of their graves, not out of hell).
    Ver. 14, "And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live..." (Notice they shall "live." That means they were "dead," not alive in some hell).
    Ver. 23, "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, so shall they be my people, and I will be their God."
    Ver. 25, "And David my servant shall be king over them..."
  6. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    Is anyone still reading? I'm not trying to persuade anyone...It is all with God...

    (Final Part!!!)

    How could anyone possibly believe any one of these verses and yet believe that unbelieving Jews God will burn in Hell for all eternity. Let’s be Scripturally honest here:
    God blinded Israel (ver. 8).
    God used their offense to bring salvation to the nations (ver. 11).
    God caste Israel away so that He could conciliate the whole world (ver 15).
    God will take back these unbelieving and sinning Jews (ver 15)
    God will give them life from among the dead (ver. 15).
    God will save all Israel (ver. 26).
    God will not burn them in hell for all eternity, because they will be sinless: "Whenever I should be eliminating their sins" (Ver. 27).

    It is GOD Who is in control of the destiny of the human race, not MAN!

    Perverting a parable to such gross extremes as to nullify hundreds of plain and exact verses of Scripture (that are not parables) is a damnable thing! Consigning billions and billions of human beings to an eternal Hell of torture for all eternity is unspeakable. Not to mention totally unscriptural.
    God’s punishments and chastisements are severe enough without multiplying them a trillion times to the power of infinity. That is truly INSANE!
    This parable, like all the others, has great and enormous consequences. This is not the story of a single, nameless rich man and one poor beggar in the street named Lazarus.
    Christ preached the kingdom of God.
    "I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent" (Lk. 4:43).
    Christ likened Himself to a "bridegroom" (Lk. 5:34). Now look at all of the parables, and see how they point to the coming Kingdom of God when the Bridegroom will make a great feast and hand out rewards or punishments according to the "faithfulness" and "stewardship" or lack thereof, to His servants.
    But time and time again, those initially invited to this Great Feast are rejected and those who had no claim to attend such a feast are invited in.
    "Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither, the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind" (Lk. 14:21).
    But, "...none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper" (Ver. 24).
    How amazing the workings of our God are. First it looked like God had forsaken the Gentiles--He did not. Then it looks like He has forsaken His own people (the Jews)--He has not. It’s God’s way. This is God’s wisdom. And it is so much higher than puny man’s ability to ever fully appreciate or comprehend.
    When God removes all blindness, gives faith to believe, removes all sins, and convicts the heart of the greatness of God and nothingness of our own selves, ALL WILL BE PERSUADED! We can doubt it all we want, but we are not our own achievement. But rather:
    "For HIS achievement are we..." (Eph. 2:10)! "...our Saviour, God, Who WILLS THAT ALL MANKIND BE SAVED and come into a realization of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4).

    How dare any doubt God’s own ability to fulfill and accomplish His own will? (See Isaiah 46:10-11).


    If God cannot accomplish and fulfill His own will, what hope is there for us? It is a gross lack of faith to believe that God will not accomplish His own will. And whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
    The reason Abraham is in this parable, is because Abraham is the "father" of the faithful. Abraham BELIEVED GOD.
    "By unbelief are they [the Jews] broken out, yet you stand in faith" (Rom 11:20).

    Now listen to Paul’s admonition very carefully:

    "Be not haughty, but fear" (Ver. 20).
    "God parts to each the measure of faith" (Rom. 12:4).
    Yet most Christians think faith is the one thing, for sure, that they must contribute on their own to be saved. To believe such a thing is not only unscriptural, but vane as well. :mad:

    All of the haughty arrogance of Christendom would vanish over night if they would just believe and comprehend this one beautiful and profound verse of Scripture:
    "Now what have you which you did not obtain? Now if you obtained it also, why are you boasting as though not obtaining?" (I Cor. 4:7).
    We must be thankful that God is calling us (the Gentiles), and to not be haughty. Does any think that we are special but the cast-off Jews are not? No! The Jews are very special to God. The Rich man asked for "mercy," and he will yet receive mercy. "...God is able to graft them in again." (Rom. 11:24).
    "For unregretted are the graces and the calling of God. For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness, thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they [the "Rich man" and all his descendants--all Israel] may be shown mercy. For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all [Jews and Gentiles]. O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God!" (Rom. 11:29-33).
    God gave Abraham that kind of faith. God gave Eliezer that kind of faith. Faith that doesn’t require substance, evidence, and proof. Every step of faith that Eliezer took put him that much further from his inheritance. Eliezer’s faith wasn’t in the "visible evidence," but in God. In Abraham’s case the "evidence" (he and his wife’s old age) that God would give them seed, was a faith destroyer. There was nothing in the visible evidence that would have given anyone faith. Abraham’s faith wasn’t in "evidence" but in God. Children need proof; THE MATURE LIVE BY FAITH...
    I am sure that there is much more that can and will be learned and understood regarding this unique parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. However, whatever we teach regarding it must at least stand on solid Scriptures and not contradict. The real truth of this parable is not nearly as morbid as it may appear at first glance. God has a plan that eventually brings all the Jews and all the Gentiles to salvation. The very heart of the Gospel is the salvation of the Jews and Gentiles (which, therefore is everyone), the salvation of the WHOLE WORLD!
  7. greymare

    greymare Well-Known Member

    May 20, 2007
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    yes, Im still reading. and digesting. Let me ponder on this.
  8. Dream

    Dream Well-Known Member

    Feb 18, 2008
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    I really cannot disagree with this summation of what these texts say. It is what they say. Still, I recognize the inherited Protestant fire (maybe not just Protestant), which I also have despite everything I have posted on the forums. It is that panicked frenzy to save everyone and everything, which is too much for a human, by which some somehow wind up saving themselves, by which some die of exertion, by which others turn into embittered comedians or all of the above. I have found out that every face is a mirror and lies make people seek truth, although we should not lie. It was lies which made us, by which we came into truth we would not seek otherwise. It is the truth we love, which we cannot establish or promise. Truth is too high for us, and men do not seek it. There is nothing permanent about us.
  9. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    I know what you mean Dream...I've been wanting to show this to everyone here...I'm lost for words...Or maybe I'm just tired...
  10. Dream

    Dream Well-Known Member

    Feb 18, 2008
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    This cannot be left as it is. If we have established our own point of view and say we do not trust the 'Popular view' of the NT, then we have a real problem with the NT. The problem is it has to have an origin. I never thought about it much until recently, despite Catholics who posted back & forth about it with various Protestants.

    C: "Well who do you think gave you the NT?"
    P: "Well not you obviously!"
    C: "I suppose it just fell out of the sky?"
    P: "Exactly!"
    C: "But who do you think wrote the NT?"
    P: "It has nothing in common with the things you say"
    C: "Really? Well what do I say that is not in common with it?"
    P: "I don't know, because I'm not Catholic, and I don't want to read 10,000 pages of stuff to figure out all of your complicated jargon!"
    C: "Ok, but who do you think wrote the NT?"
    P: "Well not you obviously!"

    Up until now we have placed our trust in the authority of the NT as the original source from which the RC Church 'must have departed', but at the same time the existence of the RC was our evidence that the NT was original. Now that we strongly think the NT doesn't jive with what the Church teaches *at all*, the NT suddenly also does not seem to have any origin at all. Do we actually know what the Church believes about God's plan?
  11. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    Dream, what are you saying? The church isn't proof to me that the NT is original...The Church just teaches a few verses of the NT...

    Besides what about the other hundreds of "God worshpping" churches out there? Are they all right, or wrong?

    Doesn't it say in the very book they preach that...

    "...SATAN [Heb: Adversary], which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD..."

    Doesn't the Church teach salvation is not for all?

    Doesn't it teach Hell is the "after life" of the damned?

    What if one of your loved ones was sent to Hell? Would you want to worship anything that would do that? What does it say about God when we are told:

    "train up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it" (Prov. 22:6), but that God Himself is incapable of training His children in the way that they should go and that most of them WILL DEPART FROM IT?

    Doesn't it teach the trinity? Where does the word trinity show up apart from in dictionaries?

    Don't they sell Bibles and rosemarys, for money? What did Jesus do to the money changers in the temple? What did he say to them in regards to His Father's house?

    What does Jesus prophesize in the future (Matt. 7:22)? (Look at the word describing the quantity value of the people...)

    what will He say to those people despite this (verse 23)?

    What about Acts. 7:48 & 17:24?

    What did the woman say to Jesus in (John.4:19-20)?

    And what Jesus' reply (John.4:21&23-24)?

    Your last question is a good one Dream...Because I don't actually think anybody knows, but it certainly ain't the scriptures...

    I won't dicsuss this any more...

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