Madonna and Kaballah

Regarding Madonna: Who cares? I do not think it is any of our business.

Regarding Kabbalah: Well this study is profound, and there are many different ways to approach it.

For example, entire books are written on the countless numerical connections found by studying the Kabbalah, however this information is useless if one does not find the proper understanding. Kabbalah can teach us The Path, the Great Work, the Magnus Opus, if we understand it correctly.

Idle chatter and theory mean nothing if we are not finding the connection to god through our daily life. Kabbalah is a roadmap for the self realization of the Being.

Kabbalah is the mortar upon the wall of the bricks of religion, through it, we can find the universal message in every religion. Kabbalah is more acient than the Jewish faith, it is the science of the Egyptians...

I recommend the following two books:
The Initiatic Path in the Arcana of Tarot and Kabbalah
Mystical Qabalah
 
I've been curious about starting a thread on this very subject - thanks for that. :)

I'm not sure what actual beliefs are being subscribed to - is this a specific interpretation, ie, an organised form of it being subsribed to? Or is it simply a personal path of their own making that Madonna and Guy have decided themselves to step pon, and shape for themselves??
 
OK. But I don't feel like waiting for the book to arrive, so what's the principle tenet and why would someone like Madonna be interested in it?
 
Kabbalah is more acient than the Jewish faith, it is the science of the Egyptians...
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ahem, neoxenos, i would be careful before i made that kind of assertion, as opinion is divided on the subject. judaism is defined by its exodus from egypt. universal truths, however, may be found, er, universally!

the main problem is that madonna is involved not with kabbalah, but with the so-called "kabbalah centre". and the kabbalah centre is generally considered by the jewish community to be a bunch of dodgy charlatans more interested in flogging red bracelets, holy water and overpriced copies of the Zohar to credulous new age nincompoops and fad-prone celebs than they are bona fide mystics. see the famous cult-buster rick ross's website for details: http://www.rickross.com/reference/kabbalah/kabbalah56.html is a page on chiefy's recent run-in with them.

kabbalah is, as i understand it from my teachers and my own experience, inseparable from traditional judaism. whilst it contains universal truths, it is a particularist form of mysticism which reserves its greatest benefits for traditional adherents who are able to read the languages concerned and study the revealed as well as the hidden.

with all of this said, the idea of "celebrity" kabbalah is essentially ridiculous and a mockery. i can understand that madonna and her buddies get value from it, but it's not possible to divorce kabbalah from judaism. the western mystery tradition is a different, hermetic tradition that combines other esoteric paths, as seen in schools such as the golden dawn. i have great respect for the GD guys i have met and interacted with, because they're generally serious scholars, not people looking for a quick fix. the same cannot always be said of those who are approaching it from other directions. those who boast about it are those who know least. of course, if madonna is serious about kabbalah she could always convert (i notice she's not performing on friday evenings any more, heh) but i don't really see much evidence of her becoming more than an ageing pop icon at present. in fact, recently even uri geller and shmuley boteach (the well-known rabbinic motormouth and author of "kosher sex" which should give you some idea about how subtle he is) have weighed in:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/05/30/do3004.xml

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/133/story_13393_2.html

frankly, i am happier talking about proper kabbalah instead of all this sort of rubbish. all questions welcome.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
ahem, neoxenos, i would be careful before i made that kind of assertion, as opinion is divided on the subject. judaism is defined by its exodus from egypt. universal truths, however, may be found, er, universally!
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Correct. Yes, it was out of place. Nevermind it, as I do not have any care either way.
 
Madonna is to Kabbalah as Liberace is to Islam. LOL That may sound mean, but I genuinely don't buy the posturing of celebrities when it comes to religious matters. They seem more keen on finding a faith that agrees with wealth and pompous isolation, rather than looking for wisdom. As much as I dislike Cat Stevens and his sect of Islam, at least he threw off the bonds of celebrity to seek what he believed/believes to be truth.
 
Dear Mus Zibii

Well from my perspective she is searching and through seeking she will eventually find what she is looking for, she will probably end up writing self help books assisting more people to come into light and love. To be honest I don't mind how we get the world to wake up as long as it does wake up, so the more the merrier whatever path they take, all lead to the source eventually. She does give a lot of support and help to charities and a lot of celebs do a lot more then a lot of people ever get to hear about.

Dear BB

Can you tell us more about the origins of the Zohar and Kaballah? I must admit I am finding the little I have seen quite interesting especially gematria. I doubt that it is any co-incidence that there are 22 letters in the alphabet and also 22 books in the bible. I was also interested in the power of divine feminine in what I read.

Any feedback would be great.

The Master Number 22 is also an important number in ordinary numerology and is specifically significant at this time of planetary transition.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
Sacredstar,

I can't get into gematria or the Jewish zodiac with you, but I can point you to some very good articles on the origins of Kabbalah and the Zohar. It's actually the same place where the merkava articles are. I would recommend just reading the articles on that site. There are 28 total but some of them you will see don't relate to what you are interested in. It's the Origins section and most of what's under Kabbalah and Hasidism that will answer your questions from a number of different positions, both on the Shekinah -- God's presence in the world which is feminine -- and the feminine half ot the sefirot as well as the origins of Kabbalah.

They're not articles by kabbalists so much as they are by scholars of Jewish Mysticism.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com:80/ideas_belief/KabbalahMysticism.htm

Just click on Origins on the left if you are interested in reading that material. Or browse the articles at your leisure. Or don't.

If you're looking for kabbalists talking about Kabbalah, there is inner.org which is Chabad and kabbalaonline.org which I am not sure about its tradition but it's Jewish and possibly based in Safed. I just discovered that site a few days ago myself and haven't had the chance to really look at it.

Dauer
 
Dear Dauer

You are a treasure thank you. This is a new area for me and I must say I am fascinated.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
Can you tell us more about the origins of the Zohar and Kabbalah?
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well, the traditional viewpoint is that the kabbalah has always been an integral inner component of Torah and was therefore handed down at sinai, as well as having been derived from the wisdom of the earlier patriarchs. you must understand that the authorship of the main texts is somewhat mysterious and that they are generally attributed to major figures; for example, the bahir and the zohar are attributed respectively by the first century sages r. nehuniah ben hakanah and r. shimon ben yohai, whilst the sefer yetzirah is considered to have been authored by the patriarch abraham himself. obviously modern scholars can't possibly let that go, so they attribute the bahir to the C12th provencal school of isaac the blind, the zohar to r. moshe de leon (spain, C13th) and i forget who for the SY, although it is probably the most verifiably old, as it is mentioned in the mishna (which is C1st-2nd). the main thing to remember about kabbalah is that we do not consider it a separate field, but part and parcel of judaism. as such, it doesn't really make sense apart from as part of regular jewish thought and practice and certainly can't be a separate religion.

I must admit I am finding the little I have seen quite interesting especially gematria. I doubt that it is any co-incidence that there are 22 letters in the alphabet and also 22 books in the bible. I was also interested in the power of divine feminine in what I read.
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well, number correspondence is widespread in most mystical systems, but gematria is only ever used as an asmakhta or support, rather than as a justification in and of itself. gematria also relies on an extremely detailed knowledge of the hebrew language and its relationship to the Text, otherwise it becomes little more than meaningless dabbling.

The Master Number 22 is also an important number in ordinary numerology and is specifically significant at this time of planetary transition.
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fascinating. well, zodiacal stuff is certainly mentioned in the SY's system, but not as a determinant of behaviour. judaism of all stripes frowns heavily on the idea of the stars actually influencing us and indeed on anything which might lead us away from the absolute sovereignty of G!D.

If you're looking for kabbalists talking about Kabbalah, there is inner.org which is Chabad and kabbalaonline.org which I am not sure about its tradition but it's Jewish and possibly based in Safed. I just discovered that site a few days ago myself and haven't had the chance to really look at it.
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inner.org is pretty reliable - i didn't think it was chabad myself, but it's certainly chasidic, but the concomitant of this is that it's not only very right-wing politically (as a lot of the kabbalists are) but not very inclusivist particularly with regard to non-jews. it's also connected to rav ashlag, although i don't think it's directly connected to bnei-baruch. kabbalaonline.org is a reasonably good resource with a good dictionary but is mostly aimed at the learning community in safed. the best resource i've ever seen for the lay person interested from a non-jewish PoV is:
http://www.ecauldron.com/kabbalah.php
which is still good! that should answer most of the FAQs.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
whilst the sefer yetzirah is considered to have been authored by the patriarch abraham himself. obviously modern scholars can't possibly let that go, so they attribute the bahir to the C12th provencal school of isaac the blind, the zohar to r. moshe de leon (spain, C13th)
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Feel it is more likely to have originated from Egypt then from moshe de leon but yet there is no evidence to signfy it, and as Abraham seems to have lied, cheated and sold his wife in effect, it would be no surprise to discover that he had learnt it from another mystic. Maybe there will be new scrolls discovered that will clarify many of these things for judaism in the future. It would be great if this was the case and then it would stop modern scholars speculating all the time, but would Judaism accept them that is the question?

bananabrain said:
the main thing to remember about kabbalah is that we do not consider it a separate field, but part and parcel of judaism. as such, it doesn't really make sense apart from as part of regular jewish thought and practice and certainly can't be a separate religion.well, number correspondence is widespread in most mystical systems, but gematria is only ever used as an asmakhta or support, rather than as a justification in and of itself. gematria also relies on an extremely detailed knowledge of the hebrew language and its relationship to the Text, otherwise it becomes little more than meaningless dabbling.
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Yes I understand that, I see it as the mystical estoteric side of Judaism.


bananabrain said:
fascinating. well, zodiacal stuff is certainly mentioned in the SY's system, but not as a determinant of behaviour. judaism of all stripes frowns heavily on the idea of the stars actually influencing us and indeed on anything which might lead us away from the absolute sovereignty of G!D.
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Well numerology is different to the zodiac, words make numbers, and numbers make symbols e.g. sacred geometry which probably makes the matrix of the universe. Hence the importance of gematria from my viewpoint.

Thank you very much bananabrain for responding to my questions, I am sure they are useful links and I will look into them at some point soon.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
Dear BB

bananabrain said:
judaism of all stripes frowns heavily on the idea of the stars actually influencing us and indeed on anything which might lead us away from the absolute sovereignty of G!D.

bananabrain
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Well this would make an interesting thread of its own.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
Feel it is more likely to have originated from Egypt then from moshe de leon but yet there is no evidence to signify it
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yes, of course, G!D forbid that anything jewish should actually be original. obviously we nicked it from those lovely, nurturing, at-one-with-the-universe egyptians. i will certainly take your feelings into account in the future when studying.

as Abraham seems to have lied, cheated and sold his wife in effect, it would be no surprise to discover that he had learnt it from another mystic.
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oh, yes, of course, because that's exactly what abraham was, a lying, cheating pimp. plagiarism simply isn't much of a stretch from that, is it? tell me, sacredstar, how does insulting the founder of judaism based on - well, actually, i can't tell what it is based on other than a simplistic, literalist reading - show "love beyond measure"?

Maybe there will be new scrolls discovered that will clarify many of these things for judaism in the future.
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yes, that would be fantastic, because then we could stop wasting our time the way we probably have been for 3000 years. just think, then we could just drop our entire culture and religion and behave like sensible people.

It would be great if this was the case and then it would stop modern scholars speculating all the time, but would Judaism accept them that is the question?
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gosh, i dunno. i bet we'd accept them if you explained why we should. hell, why wait? i'm going to become a reconstructionist kemetic instead of a jew.

I am sure they are useful links and I will look into them at some point soon.
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i can hardly wait. i'm sure the jewish mystical tradition has never had something as exciting as love-beyond-measure happen to it.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Dear BB

Big smiles!

Well how can we ignore the stark reality that stares us in the face?

The more I study the more I learn that even Jesus is a mythical figure and there is hardly any more proof for Abraham but yet I love them all dearly...Jesus seems to be a combination of Joshua and a few others.

But I don't take it personally for we are all one people on one planet the brotherhood of man/woman with so much to share in the present moment which is the greatest gift from GOD which is why it is called a PRESENT!

Surely it matters not from whence it came it is the results that count!

Big hugs!

being love

Sacredstar
 
oh and apologies BB for my innocence it seems that

According to Sefer Yetzirah, each month has a:
letter, zodiac sign, tribe, sense, and a controlling limb.

I was unaware of the astrological influences involved in the Kabbalah.

being love

Sacredstar
 
Sacredstar,

if you believe Abraham is a mythical figure, how can you begin to say anything is true about him? It seems like you're choosing what will be true and what will not based on your own whims and then leaping to conclusions based on that. Let me give an example of this type of research:

Jesus is said to have risen from the dead. And he is also said to have knocked over the tables in the Temple. Therefore, Jesus was really the embodiment of Baal, coming back with wroth to destroy Jerusalem. The resurrection was just a way to perpetuate Baal's personal vendeta against Hashem. The rest is myth that was created to make Jesus look like a nice guy. He was really awful but because he was Baal he could attract people to worship his manifested form. Christianity is the child of Baal.

This is what can happen when we start making unresearched guesses about History based on biblical accounts, stringing together whatever serves our needs, yours probably being -- my assumption here -- to perpetuate New Age Egyptology.

Myself, I don't know that there was an Abraham at all. And I have no problem treating Abraham as entirely mythical, including all midrash, all commentary, anything about him in the Abraham mythos. I don't think we'll ever know the Historical Abraham, so I don't try. I'm happy with the Av-Raham I have.

Dauer
 
Sacred Star,

I want to ask from you a minor favor: before posting something related to Jewish mysticism (or anything related to Judaism), please talk with a competent rabbi or a priest who has studied the Jewish religion in a reputable comparative studies program. I'm sure that, if you ask politely, bananabrain would use the resources at his disposal to find someone for you to chat with.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
 
Dear Dauer

dauer said:
If you believe Abraham is a mythical figure, how can you begin to say anything is true about him? Myself, I don't know that there was an Abraham at all. And I have no problem treating Abraham as entirely mythical, including all midrash, all commentary, anything about him in the Abraham mythos. I don't think we'll ever know the Historical Abraham, so I don't try. I'm happy with the Av-Raham I have.
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Firstly I do not know what is truth about him no more then anyone else does, but scripture tells the story. Are you saying that Abraham did not marry his wife off to Kings to gain riches for himself?

As far as the mythical Jesus is concerned a good friend is an historian and there is a great deal of scholars work on this subject.

Dear Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Thank you for your concern, Dauer recommended some brilliant websites a week or so ago that have been developed by Rabbi's and they are excellent. I found the material to be much more interesting then the pagan site that BB recommended.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
Sacredstar said:
Dear Dauer



Firstly I do not know what is truth about him no more then anyone else does, but scripture tells the story. Are you saying that Abraham did not marry his wife off to Kings to gain riches for himself?
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It never says he marries her off. It just says he said she was his sister so things would go favorably with him. It doesn't even make it clear what is meant by "favorably." It could just mean that they're not going to kill him to get to his beautiful wife.


As far as the mythical Jesus is concerned a good friend is an historian and there is a great deal of scholars work on this subject.
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Yes, there is a ton of research by competent scholars on this subject. And that is why there are about 5 different Historical Jesuses right now. There's Jesus the political rebel against rome, Jesus the mystic, the mysterious Jesus because we don't have enough information, Jesus the Pharisee, Jesus the pseudo-Essene, Jesus the familyman, Jesus the loner, Jesus born in wealth, Jesus born poor. etc etc.

It's midrash. It's entirely midrash. They approach the texts and make Jesus relevant to them. They happen to be doing it using scholarly methods. But they've all got completely different answers. So I wouldn't say you're any closer to the Historical Jesus than people were 100 years ago. Especially because you claim one of these midrashic readings is true.

Thank you for your concern, Dauer recommended some brilliant websites a week or so ago that have been developed by Rabbi's and they are excellent. I found the material to be much more interesting then the pagan site that BB recommended.
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You do understand that Kabbalah is not Judaism, yes? Many Jews are happy to only be involved only with the exoteric part of their religion. Some call this stuff nonsense. And I do think it might be helpful to read a little of the exoteric so that you understand where this stuff fits into place. Otherwise it really is nonsense. It's not a separate system. It's dependant.

Do I sound harsh? I don't mean to. Okay okay. Sometimes I do. Not now though.

Dauer
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