on non-belief

[Tao_Equus]

Well I wonder if you've had any personal experiences? I've seen a ghost of our neighbor afew weeks after he died. I went into the garden for some reason I look up on a flat low roof of an extension and seen him kneeing down smiling at me. Yep it happened just like the movies, blurred whitish image of him, I ran inside looking pale, looking puzzled and scared. I then for the first time understood the expression "you look like you've seen a ghost" comes from. Of course it could have been my imagination but im pretty sure that expereince was paranormal. It's almost like an extrosenory experience, which you decode into material data, thats how I would put it, nothing you can test for tangibly.

Maybe there is something, I cannot be sure, but until I am sure it is safer to remain a sceptic. It is worth remembering however that human sight is mostly memory and memories can get confused. You cannot trust a single glimpse as it very probably is a trick of the light or some such thing.

 

[nativeastral]

I offer this from the website of the American Museum of Natural History:


Einstein and God
Einstein was not religiously observant, but he was, in his words, "a deeply religious nonbeliever." He often spoke of a "cosmic religion" and a God seen in the harmony of the universe. Einstein rejected the idea of a "personal God" who rewards or punishes. Instead, Einstein said, "it is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity [and] to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive...."
Although Einstein did not observe Jewish rituals, he strongly identified with Jewish tradition: "The pursuit of knowledge for its own sake, an almost fanatical love of justice, and the desire for personal independence—these are features of the Jewish tradition which make me thank my lucky stars that I belong to it." Einstein's strong support for Jewish welfare emerged when he faced anti-Semitism in Germany. Throughout his life, the man whose work the Nazis and German scientists dismissed as "Jewish physics" worked tirelessly against anti-Semitism.


Einstein | American Museum of Natural History



s.

aye no need to split hairs cos thats what l meant- theism = personal god in philosophical discussion [narrow definition].

 

[Saltmeister]

I've seen a ghost of our neighbor afew weeks after he died. I went into the garden for some reason I look up on a flat low roof of an extension and seen him kneeing down smiling at me. Yep it happened just like the movies, blurred whitish image of him, I ran inside looking pale, looking puzzled and scared.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

Maybe there is something, I cannot be sure, but until I am sure it is safer to remain a sceptic. It is worth remembering however that human sight is mostly memory and memories can get confused. You cannot trust a single glimpse as it very probably is a trick of the light or some such thing.

Maybe it was a dream. Should have caught it on camera so you could show the world.

 

[nativeastral]

Sorry to get in the way hear, but anybody have any theory on beards? Like beards as sacred or holy, to where I mean. Then why no pope with One?

considered sacrilegious by the pope and sacrosanct by the rastas, one mans meat..

 

[Will be]

considered sacrilegious by the pope and sacrosanct by the rastas, one mans meat..

Well, cuz I got one, and the women adore it. I allow them to decide if I wears it or not. I hope this summer in the heat style succumbs to heat, like a religious thing, them girls. Look but don't touch. What am I an animal?! Oh yeah... arf.

 

[nativeastral]

Well, cuz I got one, and the women adore it. I allow them to decide if I wears it or not. I hope this summer in the heat style succumbs to heat, like a religious thing, them girls. Look but don't touch. What am I an animal?! Oh yeah... arf.

what the heck move to brazil and get it ALL off!

 

[Will be]

It gonna be a sunny day. A sunny daze... Hip! Going out to put my starter plants in the greenhouse, from which I might be making an addition. What that 'chop wood carry water' ting mean?

 

[Will be]

what the heck move to brazil and get it ALL off!

Doz girls definitely wood not lemme, I nose it!

 

[nativeastral]

o well just hide behind your comfort zone and hope for a chilly summer then [and be thankful you have the ladees you hairy beast!]

 

[Tao_Equus]

*yawns*

Before you (once again) credit all of modern civillization to "secular unbelief" please go back and answer the posts on the previous threads which you left unresolved before.

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/an-unlikely-universe-10211-4.html

^^ The last post quotes a researcher saying that the credit for all of modern civillization goes not to "secular unbelief" but religion.

The point of my OP was not to claim individuals as atheists. And coming from you that is just so rich. You claim everyone and their grandmothers budgie.
The fact is that there are now more atheists than ever before and in the west they can, for the time being, declare so without being molested by bigots. I tried to give a brief post that made some kind of historical sense in that an evolution took place to bring atheism where it is today. We can and will never know who was or was not a truly atheist thinker. For most of history it has been akin to a method of suicide to declare non-belief. Free thinkers had to pay lip service to the fascist institutions of god or else wind up tortured with extreme and vicious cruelty before being killed. Now if you were to be dragged into a dungeon, stretched, burned and flailed before being torn to pieces would you be so quite so keen to have Allah on your lips? I think not. But then Muhammad gives you sanction to lie in that situation so maybe you would squeal whatever they wanted you to say.

But the point remains this is not an attempt to claim anyone, it is brief examination of the emergence of atheism and it was Thomas who tried to derail it with that meaningless crap. The point is not whether or not they were atheist but that their work led to the reasoning behind modern atheism. I personally believe each and every one of the listed was as atheist as I am. That is a personal opinion. You, and no theist, has yet presented evidence that this is a flawed opinion. And as I stated before, I believe every one of them at some point expressed concern that the religions that were failing to claim them in life may try to do so posthumously. This speaks volumes to me.

 

[Will be]

I wasn't tryin' ta be holy. Or at least it weren't my fault to grow. Oops, a hair just fell out I think, hope the babes don't see.

In the beginning was the beard! Or beards. And, the face was void and without form, so God put a beard on it. Not a ring on it, yet anyway.

 

[Tao_Equus]

You seem mad at Catholicism, anyway.

I have every right to be mad, livid, incensed and outraged by the ongoing history of the Catholic institution. It is very likely the most murderous institution ever to have existed. And it continues its ongoing history of genocidal butchery without any mainstream comment. Like it wasn't happening. Rwanda was a wholly Catholic led genocide and yet the media puts it down to solely tribal issues. It was a power struggle for wealth and totalitarian control and it was led by catholic bishops within and without the declared political leadership. Just as they have been instrumental in the Right wing dictatorships of south and central America the past 40 years. And for the fascist regime in Croatia during the WW2 and came back to haunt us in the Balkans war. And the collusion with the Nazi's throughout the war is fact, however you try to dodge it. So since WW2 alone Rome is implicated in many millions of deaths.

Now you can find any justification you like to pay your tithes and buy your little bit of righteousness from such an organisation. But I will never understand how you sell that to yourself. Because I could not do it. Just as I would never join a Nazi party. I attack the church you belong to Thomas and I challenge you on the morality of that. I think that a valid challenge. You on the other hand have only sought to attack and undermine me as a person. When you desperately fail in imposing one misconception on me you switch to the next. Now I am reduced to "nothing"! A bit like the Jews were in Germany under the officiating gaze of the cloth. The Catholic Church has been hand in hand with virtually every evil ruler in our western history, pivotal and critical to the implementation of suffering. So I would rather be a nothing. I would rather stand in an Olympic stadium with 50,000 people calling me NOTHING than have to endure the same being called a Roman Catholic.

 

[c0de]

We can and will never know who was or was not a truly atheist thinker.

Then there isn't any point in claiming what you did is there? You just basically nullified your entire pointless spiel ! (thanks )

But the point remains this is not an attempt to claim anyone, it is brief examination of the emergence of atheism and it was Thomas who tried to derail it with that meaningless crap.

"meaningless crap" eh??? (lol) .... you mean like your self-refuted claim that all those thinkers were atheists???

You, and no theist, has yet presented evidence that this is a flawed opinion.

(lol) ... Dude, you keep shooting down your own argument before I even get a chance !!! its not fair!!! damnit!



p.s. btw, as long as we are issuing personal opinions, I will issue one of my own: The majority throughout history has always been athiestic/agnostic. For most, religion has always been synonymous with culture, or a politically convenient label. The current trend of fashionable athiesm is only uncovering a deep seated trend that was always silently prevalent. The only difference is that today it is actually shedding its cultural mask and coming out in its true form: pure, un-adulterated unbelief. So get on the bandwagon... Enjoy being part of this century Tao, you'll fit right in this new crowd.

 

[Will be]

I have every right to be mad, livid, incensed and outraged by the ongoing history of the Catholic institution. It is very likely the most murderous institution ever to have existed. And it continues its ongoing history of genocidal butchery without any mainstream comment. Like it wasn't happening. Rwanda was a wholly Catholic led genocide and yet the media puts it down to solely tribal issues. It was a power struggle for wealth and totalitarian control and it was led by catholic bishops within and without the declared political leadership. Just as they have been instrumental in the Right wing dictatorships of south and central America the past 40 years. And for the fascist regime in Croatia during the WW2 and came back to haunt us in the Balkans war. And the collusion with the Nazi's throughout the war is fact, however you try to dodge it. So since WW2 alone Rome is implicated in many millions of deaths.

Now you can find any justification you like to pay your tithes and buy your little bit of righteousness from such an organisation. But I will never understand how you sell that to yourself. Because I could not do it. Just as I would never join a Nazi party. I attack the church you belong to Thomas and I challenge you on the morality of that. I think that a valid challenge. You on the other hand have only sought to attack and undermine me as a person. When you desperately fail in imposing one misconception on me you switch to the next. Now I am reduced to "nothing"! A bit like the Jews were in Germany under the officiating gaze of the cloth. The Catholic Church has been hand in hand with virtually every evil ruler in our western history, pivotal and critical to the implementation of suffering. So I would rather be a nothing. I would rather stand in an Olympic stadium with 50,000 people calling me NOTHING than have to endure the same being called a Roman Catholic.

Tea anyone? It's hot. It's fresh. It's golden.

 

[c0de]

Tea anyone? It's hot. It's fresh. It's golden.

rite here...

no milk no sugar thnx

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Tao, you make some very strong points for atheism. But I do not believe Einstein was an atheist. In fact he spent the better part of his life fighting for what he believed was a "deterministic" view of physics. How could this be unless there was a G-d ?

Ironically, it turned out he was wrong about determinism, but no one is perfect, right ??

actually avi l think you will find einstein had to make a statement refuting theism because of misquotes and assumptions made about his 'beliefs'

I offer this from the website of the American Museum of Natural History:


Einstein and God
Einstein was not religiously observant, but he was, in his words, "a deeply religious nonbeliever." He often spoke of a "cosmic religion" and a God seen in the harmony of the universe. Einstein rejected the idea of a "personal God" who rewards or punishes. Instead, Einstein said, "it is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity [and] to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive...."
Although Einstein did not observe Jewish rituals, he strongly identified with Jewish tradition: "The pursuit of knowledge for its own sake, an almost fanatical love of justice, and the desire for personal independence—these are features of the Jewish tradition which make me thank my lucky stars that I belong to it." Einstein's strong support for Jewish welfare emerged when he faced anti-Semitism in Germany. Throughout his life, the man whose work the Nazis and German scientists dismissed as "Jewish physics" worked tirelessly against anti-Semitism.


Einstein | American Museum of Natural History



s.

Einstein was loathe to be drawn into any debate on religion and he complained in letters to friends about being misquoted by religions. But there is a very telling public quote that nails his colours firmly to the enlightenment:
"I hope that the healthy conditions will soon supervene in Germany and that in future her great men like Kant and Goethe will not merely be commemorated from time to time but that the principles which they taught will also prevail in public life and in the general conciousness"

But it is irrelevant, he has been, no matter what you want to believe about his beliefs, been a big influence in modern atheism.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Tao, I would like to dispute your choice of the thread's title. Non-belief? I beg your pardon? I think you mean "non-religious belief."

Lol!! Ermmm... sorry....not walking that road again with you. I mean what I say. And I think you smart enough to know what I say too

 

[Snoopy]

Einstein was loathe to be drawn into any debate on religion and he complained in letters to friends about being misquoted by religions. But there is a very telling public quote that nails his colours firmly to the enlightenment:
"I hope that the healthy conditions will soon supervene in Germany and that in future her great men like Kant and Goethe will not merely be commemorated from time to time but that the principles which they taught will also prevail in public life and in the general conciousness"

But it is irrelevant, he has been, no matter what you want to believe about his beliefs, been a big influence in modern atheism.

The quote I provided did seem to hint at his wariness and could be jumped upon as support or refutation for “either side” perhaps!

Of course, there is a sea of “quotes” out there and muddied waters could be further muddied quite easily…

“What humanity owes to personalities like Buddha, Moses, and Jesus ranks for me higher than all the achievements of the enquiring and constructive mind.”


Einstein’s Quotes on Buddhism Tricycle Editors’ Blog


sorry!


s.

 

[Snoopy]

It's golden.

HEY! That's not tea.

s.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Then there isn't any point in claiming what you did is there? You just basically nullified your entire pointless spiel ! (thanks )

"meaningless crap" eh??? (lol) .... you mean like your self-refuted claim that all those thinkers were atheists???


(lol) ... Dude, you keep shooting down your own argument before I even get a chance !!! its not fair!!! damnit!

As much as the boy in me would love to get into a slagging match......

whatever you say c0de!! You way too cool for me!!

p.s. btw, as long as we are issuing personal opinions, I will issue one of my own: The majority throughout history has always been athiestic/agnostic. For most, religion has always been synonymous with culture, or a politically convenient label. The current trend of fashionable athiesm is only uncovering a deep seated trend that was always silently prevalent. The only difference is that today it is actually shedding its cultural mask and coming out in its true form: pure, un-adulterated unbelief. So get on the bandwagon... Enjoy being part of this century Tao, you'll fit right in this new crowd.

I do not need cheeering up....but thank you for that