on non-belief

The quote I provided did seem to hint at his wariness and could be jumped upon as support or refutation for “either side” perhaps!

Of course, there is a sea of “quotes” out there and muddied waters could be further muddied quite easily…

“What humanity owes to personalities like Buddha, Moses, and Jesus ranks for me higher than all the achievements of the enquiring and constructive mind.”


Einstein’s Quotes on Buddhism Tricycle Editors’ Blog


sorry! :eek:


s.
Context? Was the context in which he spoke meaning that he valued them as higher or that they were higher, as in being beyond him? He was often evasive. It is actually very clever. For he goes on to make a disassociation between religious mind and "enquiring and constructive mind". It depends how you want to read it and is what makes these arguments futile, repetitive and diversionary.
 

Feck I don't know! We need to exhume him and interrogate the evasive slippery sod.

It depends how you want to read it and is what makes these arguments futile, repetitive and diversionary.
I know! Look at all our posts!

OK, nobody try and stop me, I'm definitely going for a sh1t now.

s.
 
science.jpg
 
Tao, I would like to dispute your choice of the thread's title. Non-belief?:) I beg your pardon? I think you mean "non-religious belief."

Belief is closely related to thought. To believe is to think, but not all thinking is believing. Believing is thinking with commitment. Some thoughts have a commitment. Beliefs are thoughts that commit to assertions that something is true or false. Every human being, every sentient, sapient being must do that in order to be sentient and/or sapient.



The age of reason? Define "reasoning."

I don't know what you have seen, but from my experience, people perform "reasoning" all the time. To think is to reason. Reasoning is thinking; thinking is reasoning. The "age of reason" is already here. It has always been here, but that is almost like saying that there was never such an age, because people have been thinking and reasoning since the beginning of the human race. There is no distinction. It's all part of the natural social and political evolution of the human race. That's the big picture. It's not perfect, but the process of change is more important than any notion of perfection.



Do you really mean that or are you just trying to make an example out of Thomas?

These people that you and Thomas listed are individuals just like you. They are not atheist unless they called themselves atheist. They have to wear the label of "atheist" otherwise they are not atheist because that isn't how they saw themselves. They have to have made the claim during their lifetimes. The label can't be acquired posthumously. That's just as bad as burying Darwin in a church. You're now writing "atheist" on their tombstones. That just isn't fair.





I think you're missing the point here. Tao is an individual, and his views are individualistic, not connected to any social or political structure. It is not necessary for a person to belong to a social or political structure to contribute ideas that are of value. Tao doesn't represent an organisation, just himself.

My question to you would be this. Do you, as a Roman Catholic, represent yourself or the Roman Catholic Church? Are you an individual or the organisation? Are you an embodiment of the RCC, an incarnate of the RCC? Do you speak the will of the RCC, or do you, like Tao, speak for yourself?

Some very calm and rational thoughts there, Saltmeister - thanks for adding those. :)
 
So I would rather be a nothing. I would rather stand in an Olympic stadium with 50,000 people calling me NOTHING than have to endure the same being called a Roman Catholic.

ok so can we join this OP with the 'nothing' OP and really get to grips with this nothingness of non belief??!!:eek:
 
As far as I understood it from previous conversation in my "Smorgasbord Religion" thread, Tao is more agnostic than atheist, more subjectivist than objectivist. But he prefers to put on atheist, objectivist clothing. Perhaps for its greater shock value, so it is more antithetical to established religion. I don't know.

First of all, path, I should say there is still goodness in earth as there are still people like you who trenscends the limitness of the ego, and overcome the impulses of the negative thinkings to fill our world of inner beauty, comfort and peace... My salutation, dear..


I would like to talk about Tao...I agree with you that he is more agnostic than atheist..

I ve bee reading Tao's posts. I feel he has something to say, to offer. That's why, I was reading his posts. I dont deny that he has important things to say, but his method of replying to others' posts,which he himself said that he meant nothing offensive by it, while others find it offensive...

Anyway, Tao is more agnostic because as he said once that he doesnt belive in God, though he finds that the world is harmonous in a very stange way...This means that Tao hasnt yet found answers to all his questions...

His posts with that touch of his rebellious spirit simply means that his discomfort and his confusion has not yet reached the safe shore...

I am fully sure that Tao will find that safe shor one day as he is very honest with himself, esp when he declars that he represent nothing, which means that he is leading a personal experience that may take in common with many ideoolgies, but it still remains his own special journey that isnt confined by any limited ideology...

Tao is agnostic...he is witnessing a state of doubt, rebellion, skepticism as he still doesnt find something to give him answers to all what he wants...

This is my reading to Tao, and it may be false. My advice to Tao is to try connecting that unknow that he doesnt believe in. Take the spiritual journey...It may lead him to something new, and may answer his questions...

The prophet Abraham pbuh went by the same process of doubt and skepticism. He found his father and tribe worshipping idols. He wondered how they were worshipping what cant do no harm no goodness. Then, he went through a process of search of looking for God. Here is the story as summarized in the Quran:


[6:74] Recall that Abraham said to his father Azar, "How could you worship statues as gods? I see that you and your people have gone far astray."
[6:75] We showed Abraham the marvels of the heavens and the earth, and blessed him with certainty:
[6:76] When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear."
[6:77] When he saw the moon rising, he said, "Maybe this is my Lord!" When it disappeared, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will be with the strayers."
[6:78] When he saw the sun rising, he said, "This must be my Lord. This is the biggest." But when it set, he said, "O my people, I denounce your idolatry.
[6:79] "I have devoted myself absolutely to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth; I will never be an idol worshiper."
[6:80] His people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me about GOD, after He has guided me? I have no fear of the idols you set up. Nothing can happen to me, unless my Lord wills it. My Lord's knowledge encompasses all things. Would you not take heed? [6:81] "Why should I fear your idols? It is you who should be afraid, since you worship instead of GOD idols that are utterly powerless to help you. Which side is more deserving of security, if you know?"
 
First of all, path, I should say there is still goodness in earth as there are still people like you who trenscends the limitness of the ego, and overcome the impulses of the negative thinkings to fill our world of inner beauty, comfort and peace... My salutation, dear..


I would like to talk about Tao...I agree with you that he is more agnostic than atheist..

I ve bee reading Tao's posts. I feel he has something to say, to offer. That's why, I was reading his posts. I dont deny that he has important things to say, but his method of replying to others' posts,which he himself said that he meant nothing offensive by it, while others find it offensive...

Anyway, Tao is more agnostic because as he said once that he doesnt belive in God, though he finds that the world is harmonous in a very stange way...This means that Tao hasnt yet found answers to all his questions...

His posts with that touch of his rebellious spirit simply means that his discomfort and his confusion has not yet reached the safe shore...

I am fully sure that Tao will find that safe shor one day as he is very honest with himself, esp when he declars that he represent nothing, which means that he is leading a personal experience that may take in common with many ideoolgies, but it still remains his own special journey that isnt confined by any limited ideology...

Tao is agnostic...he is witnessing a state of doubt, rebellion, skepticism as he still doesnt find something to give him answers to all what he wants...

This is my reading to Tao, and it may be false. My advice to Tao is to try connecting that unknow that he doesnt believe in. Take the spiritual journey...It may lead him to something new, and may answer his questions...

The prophet Abraham pbuh went by the same process of doubt and skepticism. He found his father and tribe worshipping idols. He wondered how they were worshipping what cant do no harm no goodness. Then, he went through a process of search of looking for God. Here is the story as summarized in the Quran:


[6:74] Recall that Abraham said to his father Azar, "How could you worship statues as gods? I see that you and your people have gone far astray."
[6:75] We showed Abraham the marvels of the heavens and the earth, and blessed him with certainty:
[6:76] When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear."
[6:77] When he saw the moon rising, he said, "Maybe this is my Lord!" When it disappeared, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will be with the strayers."
[6:78] When he saw the sun rising, he said, "This must be my Lord. This is the biggest." But when it set, he said, "O my people, I denounce your idolatry.
[6:79] "I have devoted myself absolutely to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth; I will never be an idol worshiper."
[6:80] His people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me about GOD, after He has guided me? I have no fear of the idols you set up. Nothing can happen to me, unless my Lord wills it. My Lord's knowledge encompasses all things. Would you not take heed? [6:81] "Why should I fear your idols? It is you who should be afraid, since you worship instead of GOD idols that are utterly powerless to help you. Which side is more deserving of security, if you know?"
That is all very sweet of you to show some hope for this poor wee sinner! Though if you expect me to be like Abraham on that journey and go to murder my Son with all seriousness in the hope of intercession by an angel then I must decline.
Aside from the dark humour I am genuinely touched by your gracious empathy in my regard. And thank you for it. Just dont go putting your life savings on a bet that I will convert. And if I do know that I have probably just decided to make a living from it. Indeed if I was a bad man I probably already would be doing just that...its so easy.
 
That is all very sweet of you to show some hope for this poor wee sinner! Though if you expect me to be like Abraham on that journey and go to murder my Son with all seriousness in the hope of intercession by an angel then I must decline.
Aside from the dark humour I am genuinely touched by your gracious empathy in my regard. And thank you for it. Just dont go putting your life savings on a bet that I will convert. And if I do know that I have probably just decided to make a living from it. Indeed if I was a bad man I probably already would be doing just that...its so easy.

hhhhhhhhhhh...I wrote those words, Tao, without even the least glimpse of seeing you a Muslim. But who knows?

I wrote what I felt, and that's all...And I know what comes from heart gets to heart. That's why, I think you were touched by my words.. I am happy for that..

Tao, Abraham pbuh went through experiences that opened his intellect, mind and heart to something that one who hasnt gone through the same process couldnt feel, see and understand...

To see that what Abraham did as a "crazy" action doesnt reflect Abraham's foolishness as it does reflect your missing of the knowledge of that a great personality like that of Abraham who defied his whole society with an admirable courage and faced all the threats to win to his reason and his intellectual uinty..... Such man wouldnt sacrifice his son for the sake of nothing. He knew something you dont know, Tao...
 
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