Ask the People of the Book?

Dondi

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(Sura 10:94) (Y. Ali) If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

(Sura 10:94) (Asad) AND SO, [O man,] if thou art in doubt about [the truth of] what We have [now] bestowed upon thee from on high, [115] ask those who read the divine writ [revealed] before thy time: [116] [and thou wilt find that,] surely, the truth has now come unto thee from thy Sustainer. Be not, then, among the doubters -

(Sura 10:94) (Picktall) And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers

This verse seems to be saying that if one is in doubt about the Quran, then one should ask the People of the Book, i.e. Bible. Well if the Bible contains the truth, why are Muslims so quick to shy away from it?
 
I think the main issue is that the Bible and the Torah are seen as having been sprinkled with errors and corruptions as mankind has tried to place his own spin on the writings. Because no writings that are direct dictations from the Prophets exist, one cannot be 100% sure that what is reported as being said by a particular Prophet, is really what that person said.

Perhaps someone who is actually a Muslim can add to this, or correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks,

Wolfgang
 
Well if the Bible contains the truth, why are Muslims so quick to shy away from it?
Are they?

Islam is considered an continuation of the Abrahamic tradition that includes the OT and the NT.


Perhaps someone who is actually a Muslim can add to this, or correct me if I am wrong.
There are many scholarly resources on the Net that address this issue.
 
I think the main issue is that the Bible and the Torah are seen as having been sprinkled with errors and corruptions as mankind has tried to place his own spin on the writings. Because no writings that are direct dictations from the Prophets exist, one cannot be 100% sure that what is reported as being said by a particular Prophet, is really what that person said.

Perhaps someone who is actually a Muslim can add to this, or correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks,

Wolfgang

I'd like a Muslim to answer this myself.

Anyone?
 
not a muslim but its all about idolatry ie jesus is not a manifestation of g#d to be worshipped as one but a prophet to be honoured like their prophet. Allah to them can have no sons or any other 'contingencies' attached to the absolute.
 
not a muslim but its all about idolatry ie jesus is not a manifestation of g#d to be worshipped as one but a prophet to be honoured like their prophet.
It seems to me that the question of Jesus' divinity is very hard to settle within the framework of Christian theology without implicating Islamic views. It probably does not make much sense to find out what Muslims think without first thinking through what Jesus' Sonship means from a Christian perspective.
 
(Sura 10:94) (Y. Ali) If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

(Sura 10:94) (Asad) AND SO, [O man,] if thou art in doubt about [the truth of] what We have [now] bestowed upon thee from on high, [115] ask those who read the divine writ [revealed] before thy time: [116] [and thou wilt find that,] surely, the truth has now come unto thee from thy Sustainer. Be not, then, among the doubters -

(Sura 10:94) (Picktall) And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers

This verse seems to be saying that if one is in doubt about the Quran, then one should ask the People of the Book, i.e. Bible. Well if the Bible contains the truth, why are Muslims so quick to shy away from it?


Peace, Dondi

Sorry for being late in replying to your thread...

I liked your saying "this verse seems to...". Yes, it seems to, but the reality is completely different.

Well, brother, let's now examine the verse together...

The beginnig of the verse says: "If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee,..". This verse, brother, is not for sure directed to the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. He was not in doubt for a moment. He was the one who was chosed to recieve revelation. Hence, doubt found no place in his heart. He was the most certain of what he had received.

The question now, Dondi, is then: To whom the verse is directed? The verse is directed to Muhammed peace be upon him to ask the pagans if they were in doubt to ask the people of the Book. In other words, the verse wants to say: If you, the pagan , are in doubt as to what we have revealed unto you, through Muhammed, then ask the people of the Book.

The people of the Book were enjoying a high status among the pagans as they were considered the people of The Book. Hence, it was the order from God for the pagans who denied Muhammed's revelation to ask the people of The Book who they too had the stories of the prophets, the heaven and hell, the reward and the punishment in their Books.

And more than that, Dondi, the Quran asserts that the mentioning of the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him was in the Bible and the Torah. That's why, when the first time, Muhammed peace be upon him recieved revelation, he was so scared, His wife, Khadija, peace be upon her, took him to Waraqa Ibn Nawfal, a Christian, a man of the Book, to see what was going on with her Husband. Wraqa didnt deny for a minute that Muhammed was God's messanger. Look at what happened exactly:

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died.

Alhasayn Ibn Salam was a Jewish. He was from the people of the Book, too. Alhasayn converted to Islam,admitting that Muhammed peace be upon him is the prophet mentioned in the Torah. Here is a part of his autobiography when he eneterd into a dialague with his aunts when he declared his Islam.
At that moment, I was at the top of a palm tree doing some work. My aunt, Khalidah bint Al-Harith, was sitting under the tree. On hearing the news, I shouted: “Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!” (God is Great! God is Great!)
When my aunt heard me, she remonstrated with me: “May God frustrate you... By God, if you had heard that Moses was coming you would not have been more enthusiastic.”
“Auntie, he is really, by God, the ‘brother’ of Moses and follows his religion. He was sent with the same mission as Moses.” She was silent for a while and then said: “Is he the Prophet about whom you spoke to us who would be sent to confirm the truth preached by previous (Prophets) and complete the message of his Lord?”
“Yes,” I replied.

source: Abdullah ibn Salam, Jewish Rabbi, Medina - The Religion of Islam

I Hope that things are clearer now, Dondi

peace
 
Peace Dondi-

The Holy Qur'an was not revealed to deny the Message Jews and Christians received. It is meant to be a confirmation, a further warning and the last Testament that is to correct that which history and humanity have changed/deleted/added in the Holy Bible.
Having said this, I remember reading a passage from the Holy Qur'an where Allah SWT talks about the Day of Judgement and its signs. I think He tells the believers to ask the People of the Book (The Holy Bible Followers) because the signs are detailed in the Bible.
In regards to the ayats you mention in your post, I don't see anything wrong with it. I think that Allah SWT is saying to believers that the same Message has been revealed before and that belief in One God is the religion of Jews and Christians as well. The stories of the Prophets mentioned in the Holy Qur'an is very much the same as the stories in the Holy Bible, the story of Adam and Eve pbut, the fall of satan and his tricks, etc. All mentioned before. So, why not talk to Christians and Jews?
Don't forget, Muslims are to believe the Holy Bible as the Revelation from God Almighty as well. We must respect it.
:) That is why you do not see Muslims anywhere burning up the Bibles in retaliation to Jews/Christians/non-Muslims buring up and abusing the Holy Qur'an.
 
Does the Koran say Torah and Gospel corrupted?



Some people have said that the Koran says that the Torah and Gospel are corrupted and its no longer a book of guidance. They say "Islam" says so. Some Muslims even have said that anyone who still follows these scriptures is no longer a believer but a disbeliever and will go to hell. Indeed some Sunni/Shia scholars claim that any follower of islam who does not believe that the Jews and Christians are infidels is an infidel himself! However when asked to provide their evidence from the Koran they are mute and confused. This is because what they say and the Koran are complete opposites. Lets look at the Koran and what it say:

Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)

But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah 2, Baqara, verse 85)

Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 68)

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)

Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Surah 7, A'raf, verse 159)

2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

2.91 When it is said to them, “Believe in what God Hath sent down, “they say, “We believe in what was sent down to us:” yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?”


Here the Koran clearly states the Koran confirms what is with them, meaning the scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Clearly this is not stating scriptures of the past but what they have possession of at the time the Koran was revealed. These scriptures are identical in every way to the scriptures these religions still have today known as the Old Testament and New Testament or the Bible as some call it. As I did my research about this subject some time ago I was looking for where this evidence of the tampering and corruption of the Bible is mentioned in the Koran as claimed by the Sunni/Shia sectarianist. How can God say the previous scriptures are corrupted then order them to follow them? It even attacks those who refuse to follow it and says its a path to salvation and mentions them in an equal footing as the Koran.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48

It even uses the previous scripture as evidence for the validity of the Koran:

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)

Muslims who follow Sunni/Shia Islam say these verses are concerning the originals. But these scriptures have not changed since the days of the prophet. In fact they are the way they are today long before the prophet. So what scriptures was the Koran talking about other than the current Bible? They then point to this verse as evidence of the corruption and tampering of the previous scriptures(ie the Bible).

2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

This is then used to support the tampering of the scriptures. However upon close examination, I see they failed to look at the verse before it and after it.

2.78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

So the Koran is saying those poeple were making things up but never said the Book itself has been tampered since those people never knew the book and the follow up verses brings light to a religious scripture followed by the Judaic faith thats not the Old Testament.

2.80 And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"

This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them. The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah.

The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[4] Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna” is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[5] Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever,[6] in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)

Also in the Talmud:

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

The Koran condemned this:
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.
 
dialogue said:
The question now, Dondi, is then: To whom the verse is directed? The verse is directed to Muhammed peace be upon him to ask the pagans if they were in doubt to ask the people of the Book. In other words, the verse wants to say: If you, the pagan , are in doubt as to what we have revealed unto you, through Muhammed, then ask the people of the Book.

The people of the Book were enjoying a high status among the pagans as they were considered the people of The Book. Hence, it was the order from God for the pagans who denied Muhammed's revelation to ask the people of The Book who they too had the stories of the prophets, the heaven and hell, the reward and the punishment in their Books.

Thanks, that sort of clears it up. So basically what you are saying is that pagans, in order to believe in Muhammed's message, should get confirmation from they hear from the People of the Book, whose scriptures have similar stories as contained in the Qur'an, but are older in revelation. The Qur'an attests that the Torah and the Gospel are from God.

But at the time that this advice was given, according to Islamic tradition, the Torah and the Gospels were 'corrupted' by then. So why give this advice if there were a danger in believing in a 'corrupt' bible. Seems counterintuitive to me. I should think the admonishment would be to keep away from the Book.
 
Peace Dondi-

The Holy Qur'an was not revealed to deny the Message Jews and Christians received. It is meant to be a confirmation, a further warning and the last Testament that is to correct that which history and humanity have changed/deleted/added in the Holy Bible.
Having said this, I remember reading a passage from the Holy Qur'an where Allah SWT talks about the Day of Judgement and its signs. I think He tells the believers to ask the People of the Book (The Holy Bible Followers) because the signs are detailed in the Bible.
In regards to the ayats you mention in your post, I don't see anything wrong with it. I think that Allah SWT is saying to believers that the same Message has been revealed before and that belief in One God is the religion of Jews and Christians as well. The stories of the Prophets mentioned in the Holy Qur'an is very much the same as the stories in the Holy Bible, the story of Adam and Eve pbut, the fall of satan and his tricks, etc. All mentioned before. So, why not talk to Christians and Jews?
Don't forget, Muslims are to believe the Holy Bible as the Revelation from God Almighty as well. We must respect it.
:) That is why you do not see Muslims anywhere burning up the Bibles in retaliation to Jews/Christians/non-Muslims buring up and abusing the Holy Qur'an.

So when supposedly did the bible become corrupt, if it was at one time not corrupt?
 
dialogue said:
And more than that, Dondi, the Quran asserts that the mentioning of the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him was in the Bible and the Torah.

“Is he the Prophet about whom you spoke to us who would be sent to confirm the truth preached by previous (Prophets) and complete the message of his Lord?”
"Yes,” I replied.


This I am somewhat in disagreement with. I am assuming that this is in reference to Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-19:

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken...
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

For one thing, Muhammed is not "from among their brethren". He was not an Israelite (who are so named from Israel, also known as Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham), nor a brother of Moses (Mose's time was circa 1500 BC, while Muhammed's time was circa 600 A.D). Was not Muhammed descended from Ishmael, the other son of Abraham?

So the 'Prophet', as a brethren to the Israelite mentioned here must be descended from one of the tribes of Israel.
 
Amica said:
that which history and humanity have changed/deleted/added in the Holy Bible.
as i have said previously - nobody seems to be listening here - i beg your pardon, but that is BOLLOCKS. i've addressed it here:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/jewish-beliefs-not-corrupted-5265.html

and as i said before i will not accept this lazy assertion which is based on nothing other than assumptions and opinions. it's not even logical. even this "koranist" chap seems to have worked that out:

koranist said:
How can God say the previous scriptures are corrupted then order them to follow them?

yet you are saying not only what you said above, but also:

Amica said:
So, why not talk to Christians and Jews? Don't forget, Muslims are to believe the Holy Bible as the Revelation from God Almighty as well. We must respect it.
if the Torah has been changed/deleted/added, according to what you said above, it isn't the Revelation any more, so you are respecting a changed/deleted/added text, not the Divine Word. you cannot have it both ways. either the Torah is as it was at Revelation/Sinai and you must respect it as the Divine Word, or it has been changed/deleted/added and is no longer the Divine Word that you must respect or you are committing shirk.

which is it?

That is why you do not see Muslims anywhere burning up the Bibles in retaliation to Jews/Christians/non-Muslims buring up and abusing the Holy Qur'an.
you are abusing our Torah right here on this thread. that is worse than burning it. why can't you understand this, amica? you're a reasonable enough person.

koranist said:
This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them.
it is not the SUPPOSED oral traditions. it is the oral traditions. the texts are up to 1800 years old and they have demonstrably been followed at least that long.

The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah.
which is also the group that is the only group of jews that survived the destruction of the Temple and the second exile from the land of israel by the romans. (that's if you don't count the C10th schismatics the karaites, but there are only a few thousand of them left these days)

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

this is a misrepresentation of what this section says. to repeat it as such is tantamount to slander and it is a common accusation much in vogue amongst white supremacists and, sad to say, some muslims. for a correct treatment of what this section says, see here:

Paying Gentiles' Wages

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
this is also a slanderous misrepresentation of what the section says, equally popular with neo-nazis and other judeophobes. here is what is actually going on:

Jesus In The Talmud

The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.
no. it is jesus' condemnation of HYPOCRISY, whereby punctilious observance of tradition is coupled with contempt for human compassion. this would be wrong not only according to jesus, but according to the halakhah - jesus is, in fact, if you know the law, upbraiding them for their lack of practical commitment to something they claim to hold dear. it is absolutely not an attack on the mishnah.

what is your motivation, "koranist", for seeking to show judaism as anti-gentile and anti-christian?

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Peace/salaam--

Bananabrian, I know you are upset. And I am sorry, but please look at Deutronomy 31:25-29. If in fact Deutronomy is one of the five books of Moses (which today we trully have no proof), then Moses pbuh himself prophesized that some of his followers will corrupt the Law that was revealed to Moses.
Also, see Jeremiah 8:8.

New Testament, even without the Holy Qur'an stating that the Bible (meaning OT and NT together) is corrupted to some degree, is a contradiction in itself as compared to the Old Testament the way it is (the biggest contraversy being the concept of trinity).

Many biblical scholars admit that Bible has undergone a lot of 'transformations.' Without me typing up a book here, you can research it yourself.

The Holy Qur'an does not state that all of the Bible is corrupt, but Muslims are warned to approach it with a caution.

Why not respect the Bible even if it is in its to some-degree-corrupted form at this time? Does it give me the right, Muslim or non-Muslim, to tear it up, toss it in trash or flush it down the toilet? No. That is not what my religion teaches.
 
Bananabrian, I know you are upset. And I am sorry, but please look at Deutronomy 31:25-29.

i know this text well enough. i mean, look at it:

For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you
the Text isn't saying that IT will become corrupted, but that WE - the jewish people - would become corrupted and not follow THE WAY - i.e. the Torah. and, indeed, this came to pass very soon and that is why this is the continual theme of much of the rest of the TaNaKh. and how are we to know that we have deviated from the way if we don't know what the Way is? it simply isn't logical unless you have the Way to judge against.

If in fact Deutronomy is one of the five books of Moses (which today we truly have no proof)
there is as much proof as there is that the Qur'an was revealed by G!D to muhammad. there is no better claimant.

then Moses pbuh himself prophesized that some of his followers will corrupt the Law that was revealed to Moses.
i've already dealt with that and the Text simply does not say what you claim.

Also, see Jeremiah 8:8.

i know this text too and have previously bumped heads with no less than bob_x over it and i'll say to you what i said to him, namely that there are a multiplicity of interpretations. how do you know that the "lying pen" referred to by jeremiah means only that there was a text and it was altered by "the scribes"? how do you know this doesn't refer to incorrect decisions in practical circumstances? there are *many* ways that this verse could be interpreted. furthermore, as i said previously, reading the text one realises that the prophets are pretty darn pissed off at the behaviour of the people for precisely this reason. it is not unreasonable in these circumstances to conclude that it was the prophets themselves who preserved the originally revealed Torah, which was why they were "on-message", so to speak, as opposed to the 'lying pen of the scribes', which might imply, for the sake of argument, that the prophets were aware that there were people circulating miscopied, altered or falsified texts - which may very well be the texts that academics have discovered and have used to support the conclusion that the text was unstable. so, you see, it is not hugely difficult to find an interpretation of that text which actually provides support for my PoV.

Many biblical scholars admit that Bible has undergone a lot of 'transformations.' Without me typing up a book here, you can research it yourself.
biblical scholars are not traditional jewish interpreters of the Torah and you will find that they are not the only opinions in the world. i am more than familiar with this and have, nonetheless, come to the conclusion that the traditional viewpoint on the origin of the Torah (the traditional commentators are less concerned with the method of Revelation of NaKh) is the most plausible.

New Testament, even without the Holy Qur'an stating that the Bible (meaning OT and NT together) is corrupted to some degree, is a contradiction in itself as compared to the Old Testament the way it is (the biggest contraversy being the concept of trinity).
jews are not concerned with issues around the veracity or validity of the NT - or the Qur'an. these are not necessary to us.

The Holy Qur'an does not state that all of the Bible is corrupt, but Muslims are warned to approach it with a caution.
yes, G!D Forbid they might actually learn something about it by "asking the people of the book" rather than repeating things they've heard from other people.

Why not respect the Bible even if it is in its to some-degree-corrupted form at this time? Does it give me the right, Muslim or non-Muslim, to tear it up, toss it in trash or flush it down the toilet? No. That is not what my religion teaches.
that still does not justify a general slanderous accusation that "the Torah is corrupt" or "judaism is corrupt". that is not a viewpoint that is compatible with honest dialogue. is it OK if i say that the Qur'an is "to some degree corrupted" by its conflation with sunnah and hadith in order to convince muslims that G!D has definite Views on subjects which are actually by no means as clear? i would expect you would find that quite offensive. well, if you believe in dialogue you'll have to let go of this idea that the Qur'an "proves" or "disproves" the Revelation at Sinai. it doesn't and it can't. the Torah does not require the Qur'an for it to be true and the Divine Word - although, apparently, the Qur'an appears to require validation from the Torah - corrupt though it is alleged to be. and of what value is the validation of a corrupt text? doesn't that cast doubt on the value of the Qur'an?

i hope you will understand that this slander, convenient and pat as many muslims seem to believe it to be, is in fact the precise opposite; a sword that you are picking up by the blade that will hurt you as well, you need to understand why that is. it makes me sad when muslims smugly drop this into conversation without understanding the implications for their own beliefs.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
This I am somewhat in disagreement with. I am assuming that this is in reference to Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-19:

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken...
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

For one thing, Muhammed is not "from among their brethren". He was not an Israelite (who are so named from Israel, also known as Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham), nor a brother of Moses (Mose's time was circa 1500 BC, while Muhammed's time was circa 600 A.D). Was not Muhammed descended from Ishmael, the other son of Abraham?

So the 'Prophet', as a brethren to the Israelite mentioned here must be descended from one of the tribes of Israel.
Muslim scholars who quote this verse say that "from among their brethren" means the children of Ismael who are the arabs
 
This I am somewhat in disagreement with. I am assuming that this is in reference to Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-19:

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken...
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

For one thing, Muhammed is not "from among their brethren". He was not an Israelite (who are so named from Israel, also known as Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham), nor a brother of Moses (Mose's time was circa 1500 BC, while Muhammed's time was circa 600 A.D). Was not Muhammed descended from Ishmael, the other son of Abraham?

So the 'Prophet', as a brethren to the Israelite mentioned here must be descended from one of the tribes of Israel.

Is not Ishamael a brother of Isaac, and they are both the sons of Abraham? While you chose to interpret the verse very strictly and in a tight manner, that among brethren means only the son of Jacob, there is another interepretation which is also acceptable and logic, which says that the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is also "from among their brethren" since there is a family/blood realtion that connect him with them. They belong to Abraham pbuh.
 
Thanks, that sort of clears it up. So basically what you are saying is that pagans, in order to believe in Muhammed's message, should get confirmation from they hear from the People of the Book, whose scriptures have similar stories as contained in the Qur'an, but are older in revelation. The Qur'an attests that the Torah and the Gospel are from God.

But at the time that this advice was given, according to Islamic tradition, the Torah and the Gospels were 'corrupted' by then. So why give this advice if there were a danger in believing in a 'corrupt' bible. Seems counterintuitive to me. I should think the admonishment would be to keep away from the Book.

As Muslims, we dont believe that the Torah and the Bible are completely corrupted. There are things that have been corrupted, and deviated from God's true Words. Yet, there are words which remain as they are, wherein truth cannot be twisted completely..
John 14:16-17 (New International Version)

16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you.

John 15:26 (New International Version)


26"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

That what really took place. The prophet Muhammed pbuh comes to assure the prophethood of Jesus pbuh, to reply against those who tried to attribute divinty to him, and to defend his virgin birth and his miracles.



John 16:7 (New International Version)

7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

The word counselor is just a translation of the Greek word periclytos, which means the praised one. Muhammad/Ahmed have the same meaning in Arabic: the praised one.
 
The word counselor is just a translation of the Greek word periclytos, which means the praised one. Muhammad/Ahmed have the same meaning in Arabic: the praised one.

The problem is that the weight of 'ahmadu' is in its apparent similarity to 'Muhammed'. Nothing Jesus could've said would amount to that. Even if he had said 'chammadot' (the nearest Hebrew/Aramaic word) it wouldn't come out to 'ahmadu'. I think Muslim apologists made a mistake trying to equate the Judeo-Christian concept of the Paraclete to that particular verse of the Quran.

Or any verse from the Bible for that matter. It just looks like desperate groping. When a minor prophet from the Bible flatly contradicts a former tradition or seemingly out of the blue invents a new one Christians and Jews barely register the discrepancy.
 
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