14 Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is Not God

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by soleil10, May 22, 2009.

  1. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is Not God The Creator

    1. Matthew 24:36
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
    Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

    2. Matthew 26:39
    My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
    Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

    3. John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
    Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

    4. John 5:30
    By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
    Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

    5. John 5:19
    The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
    Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

    6. Mark 10:18
    Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
    Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

    7. John 14:28
    The Father is greater than I.
    This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

    8. Matthew 6:9
    Our Father, which art in Heaven.
    He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

    9. Matthew 27:46
    My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
    Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

    10. John 17:21-23
    . . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
    In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

    11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
    For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
    Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

    12. Hebrews 1:3
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
    Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

    13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
    For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
    Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

    James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
    Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

    14. Hebrews 5:7-9
    During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
    Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation
     
  2. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    Welcome, everyone, to this week's edition of our favourite game show, Guess The Point. This week's contestant is Soleil10. Tell us, Soleil, because we're all very much intrigued: What is the point of posting 14 verses that indicate that Jesus Christ and God are not identical beings? Particularly on a forum where most people won't argue, because they believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
     
  3. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Well, it does invite discussion. Generally it is a mental gymnastic to combine the verses Soleil has posted in these two threads.

    I still lean towards seeing Jesus as a metaphor for those who died by the hands of the Romans and those who lived on. Whether this meshes with Islam or Catholicsm I'm not sure. I think maybe it does. Perhaps the literal storied approach to Jesus presumes a limitation or assumption onto the texts that it shouldn't. The texts were written a long time ago, and the Catholics do insist that the Protestants (sola scriptura they call us) are missing something.

    It could be that the literal storied approach to the life of Jesus without any mystical grout leads to the appearance of a paradox, yet it is clear that all of the verses, pro & con, come from the same people. The verses are believed and attested to as a unit. Trying to balance Jesus the man vs. Jesus the divine reminds me of Zeno's paradox where a problem seems impossible only because the problem was not set up using enough dimensions. The tortoise does eventually cross the finish line if you have a 2 dimensional analysis of the problem. So, what Zeno's paradox makes clear is that a problem may seem unapproachable until it is set it up properly.
     
  4. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    If you define Jesus as God, you limit God. If you define Jesus as "not God," you still limit God.

    What a conundrum. ;)
     
  5. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    You really like conundrums and koans. I think you would trade a house for a Rubiks cube that would rescramble itself while you weren't looking.
     
  6. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    I didn't vote in the other thread because none of the options approaches how I think about the issue, which is basically what Dream/SG are saying. For me, the approach to Jesus is to embrace the Mystery and paradox of him. My relationship with Christ has been one of the things leading me toward faith rather than belief- that is, toward an ongoing experience of and trust in the mystery of Jesus the Christ rather than particular beliefs about him. I think it's quite like Dream is saying- the concepts seem irreconcilable until they are approached through a different perspective than the usual dualistic and categorical way humans often approach things.
     
  7. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    I think it can be properly said that Jesus was G-d, but not the Creator.

    The notion of Incarnation indicates a dualistic starting point: the distinction between Creator and Creation. The person in whom G-d is being incarnated is at some levels fundamentally different from G-d and of course G-d is different from the person. Were this not the case, Incarnation would not be a possibility. Without primordial differentiation, there wouldn't be a process of Creation, let alone an ongoing process of Incarnation and Redemption.

    G-d could have made the natural world a complete 'createdness," a perfect reflection of His essence, but then there would be no space-time movement from imperfect to more perfect. By the same token, if the human were not originally divided from G-d (Creation as differentiation) there would be no need for humanity to be reunited to G-d. Again, there would be no Creation/Eschatology dynamic. This archaic imagery becomes more vivid and immediately relevant when rediscovered in light of more contemporary understanding of emergent systems.
     
  8. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    Jesus was a great messenger for the cause of righteousness, a failed messiah (as evidenced by the destroyed temple) but was in no other way a savior.
    We need to be "saved" from our ignorance of course.
    But we already are eternal beings (IMO).
     
  9. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    I think I see what you mean: the notion of incarnation indicates those things, and the emergent systems thing is cool however there is a mystery in your mystery. According to what you said, the notion of incarnation implies (to me) that G-d should need humanity, but is that the case? Contrarily, it seems like one could live life without, and G-d would allow them to do it. In fact, lying prophets have existed. What of them?
     
  10. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    Thanks for your response, Dream.

    Presumably, if He had wanted to, G-d could have made only perfectly honest prophets. But He didn't. This can be seen as a product of G-d's decision to limit His involvement in the evolution of the Created Order.

    I believe G-d allows imperfection, presumably because without it there would be no Creation/Eschatology dynamic. The Created Order would be in an eternal, perfect state of createdness, with nowhere to go.

    I'm sure something like this has been discussed elsewhere on this forum on free will.
     
  11. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    Who is Jesus? What is Christ? Christians have been debating for centuries about the nature of Christ’s mission, his role in our life, and the substance of his personality.

    Some declare that Jesus is God, the creator, himself. In their view, God took on flesh, departed His heavenly throne and came down to live among men. Thus, while Jesus was on the earth, God was not present on His throne in heaven.

    Yet this doesn’t correspond to Jesus prayer, “Our Father, who art in Heaven.” It would seem to confirm that Jesus is not God himself.

    Some declare that Jesus is just a man, certainly a good man, but no more than a man. In their view, Jesus was good and wise. His mission was to teach us about the truth. We observe Jesus displaying traits of his humanity in Mark 9:21, Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?" "From childhood," he answered. If Jesus were God himself, would he have to ask this question?

    But could a mere man raise the dead? Jesus called Lazarus out of the tomb. There have been many good men in history, but could they even begin to imagine how to raise the dead? Jesus did many more things that seem to indicate that he was not a mere man like you or me. What then, a prophet?

    Many see Jesus as one of the prophets. Certainly in Caesarea Philippi and in Judea when Jesus asked, “who do the people say that I am,” many responded that Jesus was a prophet. Many of the Islamic faith have a deep respect for Jesus as a prophet. Many of the things that Jesus did were similar to the works of the prophets of old. Jesus called for repentance. He warned of dire consequences if repentance was not forthcoming. Like Elijah, he raised the dead and performed other impressive miracles.

    But Jesus said and did things that no prophet had ever done before. Mark 2:5-7:

    When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

    Who can forgive sins except God? Jesus forgave sins. No prophet can forgive sins and certainly no ordinary man. Then Jesus must be God! We are back to square one.

    The voice of scripture describes Jesus as all of these. It is our own inability to reconcile the relationship of divinity with humanity that stands at the heart of our confusion about the nature of Christ. This inability is another manifestation of the historical enmity between the spiritual and physical components of each human. Paul describes this plight in Romans 7:22-25:

    For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

    The human experience with the flesh is one in which defiance of God’s Will is the norm. Jesus, in the Garden of Gethsemane, asserted: “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” In the Christian view, therefore, for Christ to take on flesh as a human was extraordinary.

    For most Christians, Jesus stands as both God and man. He is integrated into the Trinitarian construct of God the Father, God, the Son and God, the Holy Ghost. Inevitably, in pursuit of understanding Jesus’ divinity, theology has subtly de-emphasized his human side. Thus, the “man” Jesus is a mystery, as is the expression of his divinity, increasingly through time, more detached and otherworldly
     
  12. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    Are we?

    Was there some reason you skipped Luke 7:59 about being saved by faith? “Your faith has saved you, go in peace.”

    Also, what is it about "Son, your sins are forgiven" that suggests to you that Jesus was arrogating the ability to forgive?
     
  13. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    I appreciate your answer, and it is consistent with what you said before.
     
  14. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    You are talking about Luke 7:50. There is no reason that I did not include this verse. It can be added for sure

    I am not sure what your question is ? I just stated that Jesus was more than a prophet because he forgave sins.
     
  15. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    No, that's not all you said.

    My question has to do with Biblical support for your line of argument: "Who can forgive sins but G-d alone? ... Jesus forgave sins" (your post #11). The implication is that Jesus must be G-d because he (allegedly) forgave sins.

    The deduction is questionable. Even if you had provided Biblical support for Jesus' authority to forgive, this would not necessarily support the implied conclusion that this proves that Jesus claimed to be divine.

    However, so far you have provided no support for the view that "Jesus forgave sins" or that he shares in G-d's ability to forgive. For me to say "your sins are forgiven" doesn't mean I am forgiving you your sins. Likewise, for Jesus to say it does not mean he is actually doing the forgiving - as opposed to communicating G-d's Grace.
     
  16. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Why do you even have to be a prophet to forgive sins? It was the scribes who said that he was blaspheming because he forgave sins.
    Mark 2:6-11
    6 But some of the scribes (H) were sitting there, thinking (I) to themselves: [b] 7 "Why does He speak like this? He's blaspheming! (J) Who can forgive (K) sins (L) but God alone?" (M) 8 Right away (N) Jesus understood in His spirit (O) that they were reasoning like this within themselves and said to them, "Why are you reasoning these things in your hearts? [c] 9 Which is easier: (P) to say to the paralytic, (Q) 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, pick up your stretcher, and walk (R) '? 10 But so you may know that the Son of Man (S) has authority (T) on earth to forgive sins," (U) He told the paralytic, 11 "I tell you: get up, (V) pick up your stretcher, and go home."​
    Jesus emphasized our need to forgive:
    Matt 6:14-15

    14 "For if you forgive people their wrongdoing, [i] your heavenly Father will forgive you as well. (M) 15 But if you don't forgive people, [j] your Father will not forgive your wrongdoing. [k]​


    It's when we don't forgive that we become figuratively paralyzed...
     
  17. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    In my post, I have tried to show the different ways Christians see Jesus,
    Some see him as God himself, some see him as a prophet, some see him as a man.
    I have also shared that all of those views may not be in contradiction with each other, I did not go further

    This is a subject for another thread "What does Jesus forgave sins means'
    All I was pointing out is that Jesus was doing something beyond what the prophets did.
     
  18. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    This is very difficult to reconcile to the concept of unconditional love and divine Grace.
     
  19. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    If you don't forgive, are you under grace? If you don't forgive, yet you are under grace, are you sinning against the Holy Spirit?
     
  20. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    It's unclear what you mean by "forgive." I don't believe any human has the power to provide another person with absolution of sins. That's between them and G-d.

    The Israelites saw disease as punishment for having sinned. Faith leads to repentance. Therefore, repentance would be expected to remove a disease state. I have no real way of influencing another person's faith or their willingness to repent. I can remind them that it is something they should consider, but it is the person's act of repentance that opens them up to Grace and forgiveness. This is why it makes no sense to me to speak of humans having "the power to forgive sins."
     

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