Postmaster
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Group hug.... Its ok, its tradition for me to place my hands there. Joke haha
Scientology
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Eudaimonist
In Galt We Trust
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Sure, and the same thing could be said of Amway.
I was an Amway network marketer two decades ago for about a year and a half. I believe that I benefitted from their self-improvement concepts, and their energetic rallies. (Like Scientology, all of Amway's self-improvement concepts were taken from established psychological sources.) I felt more motivated and self-responsible. My sense of life was brighter and more optimistic. I felt like I could achieve anything. I had spent more money on Amway than I had made back, but I'm willing to consider that fair payment for what I had gained.
However, I'm happy I left Amway when I did. For all the positives, Amway has (IMO) a way of stealing your soul. It is very easy to become lost as a self-determining individual in all that self-improvement. The object (made quite clear by Dexter Yager and other high-level marketers) is to become an obedient clone of the ideal Amway marketer, and not your own freewilled person. Yes, you might become fantastically wealthy and successful -- but you would be a bird in a cage of gold.
This is the hidden trap. If you are offered something immensely good, you might not realize that there is a terrible price to pay somewhere down the line.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste Mark,
thank you for the post. sorry for the tardy reply.
that in an interesting insight... i didn't realize that Amway engaged in that sort of behavior but then i've only known one person that was involved in Amway... they had a basement full of stuff which they kept trying to sell to their friends... it made me, for the first time, actually consider the question of friendship and what it actually meant... did it mean that adult friends (i met these folks when i was a youth) were there simply to sell things to each other? it struck me as quite a bit different than how my friendships were, based on mutual interests and a level of intellectual compatibility.
i think that you are spot on here, Mark. there are several reasons for this, i'm sure, not least of which is the penchant for most beings to seek immediate gratification whilst ignoring the potential long term consequences... this is probably evolutionary behavior which we are still seeking to overcome in some sense.
one of the subtle inducements of $cientology is the tapping into the altruistic nature that most beings have, as you make your way along The Bridge to Total Freedom (a more compelling example of Newspeak one is not likely to find) you are increasingly let in on the *real* secret and of the dire importance of "the work" and "the mission" to save humanity. indeed $cientology inculcates the belief that $cientologists and $cientologists alone are able to help people in distress... no other being on the planet is able to do so. Tom Crui$e revealed this in the much ballyhooed video wherein he said that "when a Scientologist passes by a car accident they stop because they know they are the only ones that can help the victims."
of course abumulance chasing has a rather unsavory reputation and the indication that $cientology is willing to go after some of the most vulnerable in socieity is a disturbing reminder of their real agenda.
as with most cults, the ordinary members have no idea or participation in any of these sorts of things.. they are sincere and practice the teachings to the best of their ability convicted of their calling. it makes these discussions tricky in person as $cientologists are trained in a tactic they call "bull baiting" which is designed to insult a person or intimidate them until they angirly respond and can be prosecuted... you have to sit through hours and hours and hours in a room of 12 people that all yell and scream the worst things they can imagine at you... you pass the test when you can not cause the needle on the e-meter to move.
needless to say, such techniques are well known mind/thought controlling techniques which doesn't make helping ex-$cientologists any easier, i should say. you have to be able to relate to their paradigm to have effective communications, using their terminology and helping them help themselves out of the terrible trap they've fallen into.
metta,
~v
(Declared SP)
thank you for the post. sorry for the tardy reply.
that in an interesting insight... i didn't realize that Amway engaged in that sort of behavior but then i've only known one person that was involved in Amway... they had a basement full of stuff which they kept trying to sell to their friends... it made me, for the first time, actually consider the question of friendship and what it actually meant... did it mean that adult friends (i met these folks when i was a youth) were there simply to sell things to each other? it struck me as quite a bit different than how my friendships were, based on mutual interests and a level of intellectual compatibility.
i think that you are spot on here, Mark. there are several reasons for this, i'm sure, not least of which is the penchant for most beings to seek immediate gratification whilst ignoring the potential long term consequences... this is probably evolutionary behavior which we are still seeking to overcome in some sense.
one of the subtle inducements of $cientology is the tapping into the altruistic nature that most beings have, as you make your way along The Bridge to Total Freedom (a more compelling example of Newspeak one is not likely to find) you are increasingly let in on the *real* secret and of the dire importance of "the work" and "the mission" to save humanity. indeed $cientology inculcates the belief that $cientologists and $cientologists alone are able to help people in distress... no other being on the planet is able to do so. Tom Crui$e revealed this in the much ballyhooed video wherein he said that "when a Scientologist passes by a car accident they stop because they know they are the only ones that can help the victims."
of course abumulance chasing has a rather unsavory reputation and the indication that $cientology is willing to go after some of the most vulnerable in socieity is a disturbing reminder of their real agenda.
as with most cults, the ordinary members have no idea or participation in any of these sorts of things.. they are sincere and practice the teachings to the best of their ability convicted of their calling. it makes these discussions tricky in person as $cientologists are trained in a tactic they call "bull baiting" which is designed to insult a person or intimidate them until they angirly respond and can be prosecuted... you have to sit through hours and hours and hours in a room of 12 people that all yell and scream the worst things they can imagine at you... you pass the test when you can not cause the needle on the e-meter to move.
needless to say, such techniques are well known mind/thought controlling techniques which doesn't make helping ex-$cientologists any easier, i should say. you have to be able to relate to their paradigm to have effective communications, using their terminology and helping them help themselves out of the terrible trap they've fallen into.
metta,
~v
(Declared SP)
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste Wil,
Thank you for the post.
The St. Petersburg article was really well done, in my view. I would have liked to have seen more of a focus on some of the mythos of the cult such as the manner of LRH's death, the toxicology report and the current state of the RTC, its board and chairmanship etc. but overall i like it.
have you watched all three parts yet? if so, what is your view on the reporting itself and the content of the report?
metta,
~v
The Scientologist side says they are disgruntled employees. Listening to the reporteres and employees I'd say maybe, but a lot occurred. But also knowing some of these corporatate boot camps I'll bet many feathers get ruffled. Now it sounds like things went overboard, but how exagerated I don't know.
My overall opinion is the upstart is on its demise, its starpower won't find enough tread to last the next hundred years.
My overall opinion is the upstart is on its demise, its starpower won't find enough tread to last the next hundred years.
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste wil,
thank you for the post.
i would certainly agree that they are disgruntled former employees! of course they are also people that were in the highest echelon of the cults leadership, privy to the innermost workings of the organization and responsible for the actual implementation of discipline and espionage.
i would tend to agree with you with the caveat that this demise is mostly due to the current leadership and it's inability or unwillingness to engage with its ex-members and address the concerns which they have raised.
rather like the ex-Mormons that nevertheless continue with their religious praxis outside the auspices of the Church there is a group of $cientologists that are ex-members and nevertheless continue with their religious praxis. so it's not the case that all ex-members are against the teachings of $cientology but are rather against the RTC and other corporate entities which actually control $cientology and it's religious teachings.
for example, the RTC (Religious Technology Center) has recently "discovered" that significant "errors" were printed in all of the original $cientology books by the current head of $cientology, David Mi$cavage, who graciously proceeded to listen to all the taped original lectures from which the books were transcribed, and correct all the "mistakes". this will, of course, necessitate that every $cientologist accquire a completely new library of books which will vary somewhat in price depending on their position within the Org, but will come in close to $200,000 for most people.
now the problem with this is clearly stated by LRH, himself, when he says that the books, lectures and so forth, are completely error free and, further, that nothing new can be added to the teaching unless he, himself, specifically adds it. it gets sort of techincal as this is one of the "lines of com" lines of discussion which i use to pursuade current $cientologists that the RTC has changed the teachings and, therefore, they (the members) are obligated by the actual tech, to leave the ORG or dissolve it.
this, of course, highlites one of the other issues which is common amongst insular, exlusive organizations; they have a lexicon which is unique amongst them which thus makes communication between the members and non-members fraught with difficultly since they don't share a common lexicon though they may share a common language. there are fewer pure examples of Newspeak than what $cientology provides and it can doom all conversations from the start.
metta,
~v
thank you for the post.
i would certainly agree that they are disgruntled former employees! of course they are also people that were in the highest echelon of the cults leadership, privy to the innermost workings of the organization and responsible for the actual implementation of discipline and espionage.
i would tend to agree with you with the caveat that this demise is mostly due to the current leadership and it's inability or unwillingness to engage with its ex-members and address the concerns which they have raised.
rather like the ex-Mormons that nevertheless continue with their religious praxis outside the auspices of the Church there is a group of $cientologists that are ex-members and nevertheless continue with their religious praxis. so it's not the case that all ex-members are against the teachings of $cientology but are rather against the RTC and other corporate entities which actually control $cientology and it's religious teachings.
for example, the RTC (Religious Technology Center) has recently "discovered" that significant "errors" were printed in all of the original $cientology books by the current head of $cientology, David Mi$cavage, who graciously proceeded to listen to all the taped original lectures from which the books were transcribed, and correct all the "mistakes". this will, of course, necessitate that every $cientologist accquire a completely new library of books which will vary somewhat in price depending on their position within the Org, but will come in close to $200,000 for most people.
now the problem with this is clearly stated by LRH, himself, when he says that the books, lectures and so forth, are completely error free and, further, that nothing new can be added to the teaching unless he, himself, specifically adds it. it gets sort of techincal as this is one of the "lines of com" lines of discussion which i use to pursuade current $cientologists that the RTC has changed the teachings and, therefore, they (the members) are obligated by the actual tech, to leave the ORG or dissolve it.
this, of course, highlites one of the other issues which is common amongst insular, exlusive organizations; they have a lexicon which is unique amongst them which thus makes communication between the members and non-members fraught with difficultly since they don't share a common lexicon though they may share a common language. there are fewer pure examples of Newspeak than what $cientology provides and it can doom all conversations from the start.
metta,
~v
To begin with let me say I have limited knowledge. I know a few scientologists and have discussed some of this with them but due to the nature of their hierarchy system, only so much is explained...but from what I hear.
Scientology is more than your regular religion. While many churches and synagogues may have some extracurricular training/classes in marriage, finance, relationships etc. Scientology seems to me a combination of belief and Anthony Robbins, Dale Carnegie, Jim Rohm... along the way you are required to take classes which seem like nlp, motivation, marketing, personal relationship, management...all these are required for membership...and all seem designed to increase the ability of one to a. earn a good living hence be able to afford more classes and tithe or whatever they do...and b. be more able to defend scientology verbally.
Scientology is more than your regular religion. While many churches and synagogues may have some extracurricular training/classes in marriage, finance, relationships etc. Scientology seems to me a combination of belief and Anthony Robbins, Dale Carnegie, Jim Rohm... along the way you are required to take classes which seem like nlp, motivation, marketing, personal relationship, management...all these are required for membership...and all seem designed to increase the ability of one to a. earn a good living hence be able to afford more classes and tithe or whatever they do...and b. be more able to defend scientology verbally.
J
john4dlg
Guest
Any good references to learn more about scientology?
shawn
Well-Known Member
Why would anyone want to learn more about them?
17th Angel
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Many reasons?
Know thy enemy. Seems to come to the top of the list lol. But other reasons can be just curiosity.... I find the whole religion and "bigger picture" concepts baffling yet it is fun sometimes to study and look into cultures and faiths and what people believe, hate, love, respect, fear... It's like when you lift a big old rock and see all these horrible creepy crawlies of vast range of shapes and size and colour scurrying around lol. *shrugs* Who wouldn't want to learn about them?
Know thy enemy. Seems to come to the top of the list lol. But other reasons can be just curiosity.... I find the whole religion and "bigger picture" concepts baffling yet it is fun sometimes to study and look into cultures and faiths and what people believe, hate, love, respect, fear... It's like when you lift a big old rock and see all these horrible creepy crawlies of vast range of shapes and size and colour scurrying around lol. *shrugs* Who wouldn't want to learn about them?
Bruce Michael
Well-Known Member
Probably Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology is the best one-stop shop for the information seeker. The biography of L. Ron by Russel Miller is there - Bare-Faced Messiah.
shawn
Well-Known Member
I have read many of Hubbard's books which are .....well....interesting. Very prolific author.
The only interesting books were the fictional ones, the scientology books I tried to read were far too much effort and I am an avid reader of many things including dry technical documents. I just couldn't ever get far into his though.
The only interesting books were the fictional ones, the scientology books I tried to read were far too much effort and I am an avid reader of many things including dry technical documents. I just couldn't ever get far into his though.