Why is Christianity loosing the cultural war ?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Christianity isn't losing any culture war. Certain Christians and Christian groups were bamboozled into supporting politics of a sort which, in the end, had nothing to do with advancing the philosophy of Christ. Somehow predatory capitalism, gun rights, and the vested interests of the wealthy and large corporations were made to supplant the golden rule and stewardship of the planet. "Family values" came to mean something other than what is good for families.

Chris

 

[Netti-Netti]

I am shock you do not know there is a cultural/spiritual war

I see there's a culture war, but I see it as being very different from the one you have in mind: it's a war against willful ignorance and the kind of cynical opportunism that's involved in persistent misrepresentations of the Bible in order to justify bigotry, hate, and fear mongering.

There is a saying that “as the family goes, so goes the nation.” We certainly see the adverse effects in today’s world and in our nation.

I see individual pathologies as being more important than family-level dysfunctions.

 

[citizenzen]

I see there's a culture war, but I see it as being very different from the one you have in mind: it's a war against willful ignorance and the kind of cynical opportunism that's involved in persistent misrepresentations of the Bible in order to justify bigotry, hate, and fear mongering.

Got any examples you'd care to share?

 

[Dream]

Examples? Ok, a good example would be lyrics from the very popular singer, Carman. Try the "America Again" song.


@ Chris Thanks!

Continuing on....

2 Corinthians is a letter about false apostles, whose defining characteristic is that they consider themselves to be authoritative and that they tend to want compensation $$. The writer appeals to the Corinthians on the basis of his sufferings for them, rather than any fancy titles. He preaches the gospel to them for free, and he asks what is wrong with that! For their sakes he has been beaten, fought lions etc. The false apostles wanted their money, and he was shocked that the Corinthians had been taken in. As am I.

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word; but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.

I am no liberal theologian but am a purist. I am the true right wing. What is the defining characteristic of a church leader among evangelicals? What proves he/she is a good preacher? That people are willing to pay! I mean, even if you are not a Christian surely you see some kind of disconnect between scripture and this method of choosing ministers? As I said before, just calling them 'Pastor' is idolatry and anti-Christian, a fact that is squarely ignored every Sunday. I feel obliged to quote:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blindedthe minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.

You might at first object that this passage was about Jews who were not accepting Jesus, but look at it again. The gospel of Jesus is about the end of masters and fathers, since the 'Light of the good news of the glory of Christ' has come (see above). That is the main difference between Christians and the Rabbinics. Rabbinics believe in having Rabbis and Christians don't believe in having rabbis because they only have 1 teacher, 1 master, 1 spiritual Father. "1 Lord 1 Faith 1 Baptism." And what Rabbinics were rejecting was the abolishment of Rabbis, and this is a good way of describing the historical division between Christians and non Christians. You cannot imagine how surreal it seems to find the roles reversed in modern times. Rabbinics are all independent and question their rabbis, but Christians have gotten themselves rabbis again. Go figure.

 

[citizenzen]

Examples? Ok, a good example would be lyrics from the very popular singer, Carman. Try the "America Again" song.

Actually dream, I was asking for examples that illustrated the point that Netti-Netti alluded to...

I see there's a culture war, but I see it as being very different from the one you have in mind: it's a war against willful ignorance and the kind of cynical opportunism that's involved in persistent misrepresentations of the Bible in order to justify bigotry, hate, and fear mongering.

I did check out your song's lyrics, but I don't think that's what Netti-Netti was referring to.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I see there's a culture war, but I see it as being very different from the one you have in mind: it's a war against willful ignorance and the kind of cynical opportunism that's involved in persistent misrepresentations of the Bible in order to justify bigotry, hate, and fear mongering.


I see individual pathologies as being more important than family-level dysfunctions.

Got any examples you'd care to share?

It is no misrepresentation.
The Old testament esp. is jam packed full of bigotry, hate and fear mongering.

 

[seattlegal]

Actually dream, I was asking for examples that illustrated the point that Netti-Netti alluded to...

Dhammapada 1:1-6 (especially verse 5. Compare to 1 Corinthians 13, esp. verses 4-8)

I did check out your song's lyrics, but I don't think that's what Netti-Netti was referring to.

I can't say for sure this this is what Netti-Netti was referring to, but that's how I interpret it.

 

[Dream]

Google:judgment homosexuals closet God country

Google:seed offering healing blessing Jesus

Google:"judgment of God" America

Google: Pastor pay

Google: Preacher politics

 

[Netti-Netti]

Got any examples you'd care to share?

A book called "The Moral Minority" By Stuart Chambers includes lots of quotes from some of the more visible proponents of the ideology in question. It's available online in preview version. Just enter "The Moral Minority" for a Google Books search here: Google Book Search

Regarding the issue of Biblical rectitude, one of the more interesting opinions I've seen is from one of Jerry Falwell's associates:

"(H)aving him gone is a blessing to the gay community and to the truth. He was not our enemy; his untruth was our enemy. I mourn his passing but not the death of his untruth...."
~Rev. Mel White
​

To be mourned as a liar.

James Dobson is another visible Anti-Gay ideologue. He recently concluded that the religious right has lost its "Culture War." He has also denounced Harry Potter books as witchcraft.
US religious Right concedes defeat - Telegraph

 

[soleil10]

Regarding the issue of Biblical rectitude, one of the more interesting opinions I've seen is from one of Jerry Falwell's associates:

"(H)aving him gone is a blessing to the gay community and to the truth. He was not our enemy; his untruth was our enemy. I mourn his passing but not the death of his untruth...."
~Rev. Mel White​

To be mourned as a liar.

Netti, how can you present Mel White as an Associate of Jerry Falwell ?

Dobson is another visible Anti-Gay ideologue. He recently concluded that the religious right has lost its "Culture War." He has also denounced Harry Potter books as witchcraft.
US religious Right concedes defeat - Telegraph

Netti, have you read Mr. Dobson statement ?

Have you done any minimal research on what you are posting ?

 

[citizenzen]

[youtube]321hmWcvaRk[/youtube]

Can I get an Amen?

 

[soma]

I feel some Christian philosophies have a lack of total explanation; therefore, they have lost the power to bring about the original experience of oneness and have become superstitions and an impediment on the road to spiritual development. The fight about gay marriage is one of them. The Christians leading the fight are not experiencing unity and joy in God so rely on fear to move their audience.

We can change our lives by becoming aware of our unity with an infinite God and the infinite possibilities that await us, but first, every new stage in life requires us to part from the previous one. Childhood gives rise to youth as it develops into adulthood. After a temporary stay our minds expand doing away with ignorance in order to approach God where the only medium between our minds and Gods pure consciousness is our thoughts. As we bring ourselves to a greater consciousness, positive life affirming beliefs are accepted and negative thoughts and problems disappear as we express more love, peace, joy, wisdom and harmony with everything that flows unceasingly from God, but many hesitate to venture into the unknown. They tend to cling to the familiar in life, even if they are not happy.

 

[soleil10]

[youtube]321hmWcvaRk[/youtube]
Can I get an Amen?

People who have the opposite experience than Mel are usually not talking. They do not want the world to know they were struggling with ss attraction.

So all we hear is people like Mel

Personally, I cannot imagine how someone would replace a good wife with another man ?

I do not know how he reconcile his beliefs when Jesus said that a man should lay down next to his wife.

 

[seattlegal]

Based on all the comments made after my opening post, I made some change to it.
Here it is

Why is Christianity loosing the cultural war ?

Statistics show that adultery, pornography, divorce, abortions and other sinful and destructive behavior are as prevalent among Christians as they are in the society at large. Christianity has not been able to protect its own believers, let alone act as leaven to protect the nation. So called Same sex "marriages" are now on the offense gaining significant legislative and social ground every day. This is a new and deeply troubling stage of this cultural and spiritual war. Family breakdown (overt and covert) is the single most corrosive force and # 1 indicator for failed societies, or any civilization in decline. Why is Christianity powerless in the face of these urgent challenges?

I would say that highly politicized Christianity's so called "Family Values" are not "Family Values" at all. I'm not saying that all politicized Christianity holds the following positions, but I would definitely say that the following positions don't promote "Family Values," yet have been promoted by Christians who say they support family values:

• Breastfeeding moms--There are those who would tell a breastfeeding mother to breastfeed her child in the restroom when in a public place.
  
  The restroom is not the best place for anyone to eat. Some try to defend this position by saying, "Well how would you like me to change my kid's nuclear diaper at the table?" Silly. The restroom is the place to change diapers. Of course, no one wants to eat where diapers are changed and people are using the toilet. Yet, these same people expect breastfeeding mothers to feed their infants there. Yeah, real family values.

• Children should not count as eligible passengers when it comes to using the carpool lane.
  
  Yeah, right. I can use the carpool lane when I have to drive your butt to the doctor when you're sick, but I can't use it if I have to drive my sick kid to the doctor? {And you wonder why the divorce rate is so high?}

• Opposition to homosexual marriage or even civil unions--
  
  You're going after the wrong folks, imo. Homosexuals who want to form a monogamous relationship are probably not the ones who are having sex in the public restrooms. It's really sad that I have to worry about my son going into a public restroom and having to be exposed to this sort of thing. I also worry about my kid going to a public library and have to see someone masturbating while watching porn on the computers there. It would make the raising of my family much easier if you would concentrate on this stuff, rather than going after those who want to have monogamous relationships and raise children, be they homosexual or not. If you didn't give the homosexuals who believe in family values and the protection of children so much grief, then they would probably become allies in the promoting of family values. Perhaps fewer homosexual men would die so young, if the homosexuals who believe in family values were encouraged to explain the risks to them and lead by example. (Married people engage in less risky behavior than unmarried people do--just check the discount that automobile insurance companies give to married people, as compared to singles.)

• Opposition to emergency contraception, aka "Plan B:"
  
  I suppose that I could make a regular habit of taking the last menstraual pad of my cycle down to the local notary public to have it dated and notarized, just in case I ever need Plan B while in my pre-ovulatory phase. This way I could prove that I haven't released an ovum that could possibly be fertilized yet--but I want to be sure that I don't ovulate early during this cycle--to avoid having an ovum released at a time when it might get fertilized due to a contraceptive failure. {Is that too much information? }

 

[Dream]

I do not know how he reconcile his beliefs when Jesus said that a man should lay down next to his wife.

This wording differs from a verse quotation, though I know how frequently memory can claim to grasp the verse but accidentally flip a few letters. The backgound verses that Jesus is probably thinking about are Deut 24, Deut 21, Malachi 2. He is teaching about hardness of heart.

I Mat 19:3, some Pharisees test him to see if he complies with the Law. Does he agree that divorce is lawful? Yes it is lawful, but only because 'your hearts' were hard. Rather than completely ruling out divorce, which would be unlawful, he points out that it is there for a reason while simultaneausly discouraging flippant divorces. You can see that by strictly disallowing divorce, you actually cause more problems than you solve. Better to leave the decision up to the experts, the couple in question. I think the mishandling of this scripture in the USA has caused great harm to our society, created great unnecessary shame in divorcees as if divorce wasn't hard enough. It is shameful indeed that secular authorities had to straighten out the mess. Again, shame on those 'Christian leaders'.

 

[Dream]

{Is that too much information? }

Note to self: "Cancel notary class."

Too much information is exactly the problem though. The bible is clear about privacy, and right now there is a little too much invasion of it in the name of righteousness. Its actually not unthinkable (shiver) that somebody might establish such a notary service.

 

[seattlegal]

Note to self: "Cancel notary class."

Too much information is exactly the problem though. The bible is clear about privacy, and right now there is a little too much invasion of it in the name of righteousness. Its actually not unthinkable (shiver) that somebody might establish such a notary service.

Don't worry, Dream. It was only a hypothetical scenario. I dread the nasty case of PMS I'd probably get if I ever took Plan B.

 

[Janz]

This wording differs from a verse quotation, though I know how frequently memory can claim to grasp the verse but accidentally flip a few letters. The backgound verses that Jesus is probably thinking about are Deut 24, Deut 21, Malachi 2. He is teaching about hardness of heart.

I Mat 19:3, some Pharisees test him to see if he complies with the Law. Does he agree that divorce is lawful? Yes it is lawful, but only because 'your hearts' were hard. Rather than completely ruling out divorce, which would be unlawful, he points out that it is there for a reason while simultaneausly discouraging flippant divorces. You can see that by strictly disallowing divorce, you actually cause more problems than you solve. Better to leave the decision up to the experts, the couple in question. I think the mishandling of this scripture in the USA has caused great harm to our society, created great unnecessary shame in divorcees as if divorce wasn't hard enough. It is shameful indeed that secular authorities had to straighten out the mess. Again, shame on those 'Christian leaders'.

Amen to that and to Mel White who is a wonderful human being. (Yes, I do know him personally). I have lived at Ground Zero for the so called "culture wars" since Focus on the Family and James Dobson moved to town sometime in the early 90's.
see: About Us

I know that I have shared time and time again here on IO, how the impact of this ten ton gorilla affected Colorado Springs and especially my faith walk. A political litmus test was designed by Dobson's followers to separate the true believers from those Christians who failed their test of "righteousness." At first, FOF's army tried to invade the public school boards in an attempt to implement school prayer; banning books from school libraries; adding Creationism or Intelligent Design as a Science to be taught in the classroom, etc. That didn't work, thanks to many parents who woke up and fought for the separation of church and state.

I had several friends who worked at Focus as Counselors and they reported to me about the draconian work environment. One friend of mine was going through a painful divorce due to infidelity and spousal abuse: she was fired.

I truly believe that FOF invented Culture War language in order to gain more donors. When people are afraid, they give more money to their side. And yet in November 2008, Focus on the Family announced that 202 jobs will be cut companywide — an estimated 20 percent of its workforce. Initial reports bring the total number of remaining employees to around 950. The cutbacks come just weeks after the group pumped more than half a million dollars into the successful effort to pass a gay-marriage ban in California.

for more reading see: Colorado Independent More layoffs at Focus on the Family

also see Mel's website:

http://www.soulforce.org/article/7

 

[Netti-Netti]

Netti, how can you present Mel White as an Associate of Jerry Falwell ?

Well, let's see. If you help someone write their autobiography (and other books), would that make you "an associate"?

Maybe we disagree on what it means to be "an associate." Maybe this will shed some light on it: "White has also authored at least two of evangelist Jerry Falwell's books, including, unbelievable as it may seem, Falwell's autobiography, Strength for the Journey.'" THE SCANDAL OF CHRISTIAN GHOSTWRITING

It appears that Rev White was also ghostwriter/"associate" to Billy Graham (The Approaching Hoofbeats) and Pat Robertson (America's Dates With Destiny).

Netti, have you read Mr. Dobson statement ?

Yes. It sounded a lot like Pat Buchanan from almost 20 years ago, including the part about about "the battle is still to be waged."

Have you done any minimal research on what you are posting ?

It involved no research for me to see that you have so far shown no functional relationship between social breakdown and the quest for gay rights. Likewise, it took no research for me see that you have failed to make a case that denying gays rights would have any value at all as a fix for what you call "devastating civilization decline."

For your interest, in 2006 Pat Buchanan decided that conservatism could save face if fanatical conservatives would only give up on their grandiose notions of "Culture War." The fact that they persist on this path gives the impression that they are at the end of their rope.

 

[seattlegal]

Well, let's see. If you help someone write their autobiography (and other books), would that make you "an associate"?

Maybe we disagree on what it means to be "an associate." Maybe this will shed some light on it: "White has also authored at least two of evangelist Jerry Falwell's books, including, unbelievable as it may seem, Falwell's autobiography, Strength for the Journey.'" THE SCANDAL OF CHRISTIAN GHOSTWRITING

It appears that Rev White was also ghostwriter/"associate" to Billy Graham (The Approaching Hoofbeats) and Pat Robertson (America's Dates With Destiny).

Yes. It sounded a lot like Pat Buchanan from almost 20 years ago, including the part about about "the battle is still to be waged."

It involved no research for me to see that you have so far shown no functional relationship between social breakdown and the quest for gay rights. Likewise, it took no research for me see that you have failed to make a case that denying gays rights would have any value at all as a fix for what you call "devastating civilization decline."

For your interest, in 2006 Pat Buchanan decided that conservatism could save face if fanatical conservatives would only give up on their grandiose notions of "Culture War." The fact that they persist on this path gives the impression that they are at the end of their rope.

Wait a minute, wasn't it Jerry Falwell who said that Tinky-Winky of the Teletubbies was gay? (or is that just a rumor?)