Proprietary Rights

Penelope

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I was always of the opinion that the Bible is a PUBLIC DOMAIN document. That it belongs to the whole Planet.

Why to I get the impression that some individuals (and conglomerates) feel like they own the exclusive rights to how this document is read and interpreted?

 
I was always of the opinion that the Bible is a PUBLIC DOMAIN document. That it belongs to the whole Planet.

Why to I get the impression that some individuals (and conglomerates) feel like they own the exclusive rights to how this document is read and interpreted?

Because some people claim to own exclusive rights. Especially politicos and convicts. For intance, USA went through an extreme Calvinist phase, and in many places you'd have been hung for disagreeing with Calvin. Some folks just want G-d to say certain things, and they cannot stand it if anybody does not hear what they hear. Then there are some reared to believe a certain point of view that are like mind-virgins. They are waiting for the right message and time before they can open up.
 
I was always of the opinion that the Bible is a PUBLIC DOMAIN document. That it belongs to the whole Planet.

Why to I get the impression that some individuals (and conglomerates) feel like they own the exclusive rights to how this document is read and interpreted?

They would have rights to their own interpretations if they publish those.

Btw, you don't have to file with the copyright office to establish copyright. That just makes it easier to prove copyright.
 
They may act that way, but it is just posturing, like the local hoodlums who strut on a particular street and act like they own it.
They don't really, but they will bully their way around to attempt to make others believe that it is so.
 
I was always of the opinion that the Bible is a PUBLIC DOMAIN document. That it belongs to the whole Planet.
Well that's a common, but mistaken opinion, I'm afraid. The Bible is a collection of commentaries on the faith of a particular community, by members of that community, and was produced by the community for the benefit of the community.

The Bible is only 'public domain' in the sense that the community to whom it belongs released it to the world ... they were not under any obligation to do so, but they did.

Why to I get the impression that some individuals (and conglomerates) feel like they own the exclusive rights to how this document is read and interpreted?
That's the nature of people, I'm afraid, so you end up with the blind leading the blind.

Initially, as a preservative against error, the proper interpretation of the texts were secret, and formed part of the 'disciplina arcani' — the discipline to which the catechumen was sworn and under which he or she was instructed.

As soon as those, within the community as well as outside of it, started to circulate their own opinions on the meaning of the texts, the trouble started. Today, of course, in this age of 'self-narrative', personal opinion is equated with objective truth, so no-one knows what to believe, and most assume that what they think is valid, purely because they think it.

Of course, if you want the authentic reading and interpretation, you can do no better than refer to the community that produced the document in the first place, and its successors. But today everyone believes their opinion is the equivalent of truth.

Thomas
 
Thank you, Thomas.

That two-thirds answers my question.
Historically, the Bible is a mixed-use document:
1. A pragmatically useful document in training the faithful.
(The arcane nature of its meanings are revealed while the young are being educated in catechism toward "Confirmation" in the faith.)
2. Evangelical promotional literature for potential converts.
(To be found in hotel bedside tables or in the hands of men in suits knocking on your door or on chairs in homeless shelters.)

... Get that right?

& & &

That leads me to another question.
In your view, Thomas ...

a. Is the Bible just a pragmatic tool, in the hands of the faithful and potential converts, which points to the Sacred?
b. Or is the physical Book, or certain Chapters of it, or the Words contained within it
(some of the words? all of the words?)
... Sacred in-and-of-themselves? ...

(I'm not looking to start an argument. I'm looking for a perspective on this, which I haven't already thought of.)

Where does God - where does the Divine - sit in relation to the Bible?

& & &

Is the Bible necessary? - for instance.

Can you come to God directly? ... Talk to God? - thru prayer? or thru ecstatic experience? or by some other means? ...

(What are those other means? - if other means exist ...
Flagellation of the body? difficult pilgrimages? tireless good-works? missionary work? ...
Or are any and all of these merely Secondary religious devotions? Substitutes for connecting directly with the Divine?)

(I am thinking both in contemporary terms, and historically.)

& & &

Again ...
Much thanks, Thomas.

Penelope

 
I have no idea why anyone even entertains these posts anymore.. they are blatantly rude and antagonistic and its very clear she is just here to spread her negative nasty self-promoting writings..

get thee behind me satan.
 
I was always of the opinion that the Bible is a PUBLIC DOMAIN document. That it belongs to the whole Planet.

Why to I get the impression that some individuals (and conglomerates) feel like they own the exclusive rights to how this document is read and interpreted?


I dont know Penelope why do you feel like you have exclusive rights to how the Bible is read and interpreted :confused: ;)
 
As soon as those, within the community as well as outside of it, started to circulate their own opinions on the meaning of the texts, the trouble started. Today, of course, in this age of 'self-narrative', personal opinion is equated with objective truth, so no-one knows what to believe, and most assume that what they think is valid, purely because they think it.

One question...
Do you believe that the original secret interpretation was "objective truth"?​

And one comment...

The following definitions are from merriam-webster.com
Subjective (1): peculiar to a particular individual : personal (2): modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background b: arising from conditions within the brain or sense organs and not directly c: arising out of or identified by means of one's perception of one's own states and processes

Objective expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations​

I disagree with your statement that personal opinion today is seen as objective truth. I think most people are well aware that their viewpoints are just that... personal. Do you really think that people believe their opinions to be without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations?
 
Well that's a common, but mistaken opinion, I'm afraid. The Bible is a collection of commentaries on the faith of a particular community, by members of that community, and was produced by the community for the benefit of the community.

The Bible is only 'public domain' in the sense that the community to whom it belongs released it to the world ... they were not under any obligation to do so, but they did.
Namaste Thomas,

and Poppycock.

Please provide the name for this community whose members wrote this collection of commentaries.
 
Hi Penelope —

Historically, the Bible is a mixed-use document:
From a post-modern perspective yes, but not from the viewpoint of the original author, nor of the community to whom the writings were addressed. The Old Testament is the testimony of the religious vision and experience of a people, the New Testament is the testimony of the witness of Christ. The materials of the New Testament were not written with posterity in mind, but to address specific contemporary issues. That they were recognised by the community as serving a broader purpose is something that occurred later, but then the community in question, mostly Jewish converts, had a long scriptural tradition behind them.

Paul's letters, for example, written to tackle issues arising is specific Christian communities, were copied and passed around, and soon were read as part of the Liturgical celebration of the community as a whole, but that was not Paul's intention in writing them. In fact, we know he wrote three letters to Corinth, but only two survive (although possible the second is a compilation of the second and third) — had the intention from the outset been to write a bible, or that any particular book was immediately regarded as a sacred text, then much greater care would have been taken.

1. A pragmatically useful document in training the faithful.
I'm not sure why you say 'pragmatically' or 'useful' — the texts are the foundation of faith, all faith relates to Christ, so the Apostolic testimony is key — in that sense 'useful' or 'pragmatic' doesn't apply.

The arcane nature of its meanings are revealed while the young are being educated in catechism toward "Confirmation" in the faith.
The engagement with Scripture does not cease. The catechumen, after baptism, became neophytes ('new shoots') — and it was understood the growth in the spirit has just begun, and is one that never ceases. This was called 'mystagogy' in the ancient Church, as it is in the Catholic and Orthodox today. This aspect has largely been forgotten in the wider world, in which the Mystery of Christianity has been eroded by the continued rationalisation of the message — the post-Enlightenment assumption that the Mystery itself is incomprehensible and inaccessible. In effect Christianity has largely been reduced in content to little more than a humanist ethic with Jesus tagged on.

The neophyte was bound by the 'disciplina arcani' to keep secret those aspects which would undoubtedly cause confusion if not properly transmitted, received and understood — such as the Eucharist, the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, and so on— and they did so quite successfully until the Arian dispute, at which point the most profound aspects of the Mystery became the topic of street-corner conversation.

So implicit in your own comment is the fact that the texts are not self-explanatory — common sene really — rather thet they are multi-layered, and the deeper, spiritual meaning, the typological, the analogical and the anagogical, belonged to the oral tradition and then the later emergent commentaries of the Fathers.

Why anyone assumes that because they can read something, they understand it's every dimension, escapes me. Most people need poetry explaineds to them, let alone the sacred texts of a spritual tradition. I doubt one in a hundred understands the interior meaning of the Illiad, for example, or Shakespeare ...

2. Evangelical promotional literature for potential converts.
Not really. This occurred much later.

(To be found in hotel bedside tables or in the hands of men in suits knocking on your door or on chairs in homeless shelters.)
See above. This is the typical American response — the commercialisation of religion. At best it's generosity, at worst it's a good way to make a buck.

3a. Is the Bible just a pragmatic tool, in the hands of the faithful and potential converts, which points to the Sacred?
No.

3]b. Or is the physical Book, or certain Chapters of it, or the Words contained within it (some of the words? all of the words?) ... Sacred in-and-of-themselves? ...
I think you're looking at it the wrong way, trying to find some empirical, quantitative determination .... this is the text critic route, focussing with forensic detail on every minutiae of the text until the sight of the whole was lost completely. The Bible is a Sacred Text, but if you want to examine every word, and give it a value on some scale of sacredness, you've missed it by a mile — the meaning and message is in the spirit of the text, not in the letter.

Where does God - where does the Divine - sit in relation to the Bible?
It's inspiration.

Is the Bible necessary?[/B] - for instance.
No. That God chooses to reveal Himself to creation is not necessary, it is a free and gratuitous gift. That God chooses to dailogue with His creature is doubly so. The Bible reveals God in a way that is inaccessible to the human intellect, and reveals something of Himself, and something of man that he could not know. Without Scripture we would be dependent upon Tradition alone, and the evidence suggests, in the detail of doctrinal and theological disputes, that Scripture is an invalid and indeed infallible source of reference in their resolution.

Can you come to God directly?[/SIZE

No. Man can only come to the fullness of its own nature, or a lesser nature ... man cannot come to a higher nature. Transcendence in that sense is not something self-effecting — if it were it would be common to the nature and not transcendent to it ... transcendence in the Monotheist traditions is only possible by the higher drawing the lower into Itself, the lower cannot project Itself into the higher.

... Talk to God? - thru prayer? or thru ecstatic experience? or by some other means? ...
There are many ways to talk to God. Simply talking to God is talking to God. The trick is in the listening to God, or a spiritual engagement with the Divine. 'Ecstatic experience' might well be the by-product of 'system overload' as it were — ecstatic experience is nothing in itself, and shouldn't be read as a sign of anything else — that's the latest thinking in some Catholic circles. Certainly not all mystics are ecstatics.

Flagellation of the body?
There is a line in the practice of ascesis when one over-steps the mark. I think self-flagellation is a dubious practice personally ... but on the other hand I trained in martial arts where we were taught to accept a degree of pain as part of the process, so it is not utterly without justification. I used to carry bruises that were spectacular rainbows of colour, and I'm sure if anyone saw them, they'd doubt my sanity. As ever, excess should be questioned. Certainly I think the stylites of old, flagellant monks, fakirs in India who perform all manner of feats is in itself a waste of time. Context is all.

difficult pilgrimages? tireless good-works? missionary work? ...
Context! If done so demonstrate how pious one is, then a waste and indeed, a sin. If not, then maybe part of the spiritual tempering process.

Or are any and all of these merely Secondary religious devotions? Substitutes for connecting directly with the Divine?)
Prayer first ... why work for someone you never bother to speak to? God is not a man, but although anthropomorphising the Deity is always dangerous, the gift and grace of a Diety that chooses to communicate with its creature through the most intimate medium, that of the creature's nature, renders the Deity interior to the creature, and invites the creature into the interiority of the Divine 'nature' (allowing that the Deity is not a nature in the strict sense of the term).

But work can be a prayer ... A worker might indeed have a more intimate dialogue with the Divine than a mystic ... it's just the mystic ticks the boxes of what society expects of a mystic. When I was a kid, we knew a missionary who worked in a leprosarium, never mentioned a mystical word as far as my folks can recall, but the phenomena that surrounded him was something else.

But prayer first, and above all ... you'll not find a spiritual master east or west that says otherwise ... I go with them.

Thomas
 
and Poppycock.
Please provide the name for this community whose members wrote this collection of commentaries.
Well, they were known first simply as 'the Way' (by Luke in Acts), then as Christians, then as the Catholic Church, by St. Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans written in 107AD.

As regards audience:
Matthew in its present form was addressed to Jewish converts who were coming into increasing conflict with the Jewish authorities. Matthew 13:52 "... Therefore every scribe instructed in the kingdom of heaven, is like to a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure new things and old" is regarded by Catholic exegetes as a self-reference by the author, who composed his Gospel from Aramaic Matthew and Mark.
(I don't hold any credence for the Q argument, it's a fix and without a shred of supportive evidence.)

Mark was the testimony of Peter recorded whilst the latter was awaiting execution in Rome. It's the least literary Gospel, a rather breathless account.

Luke was written to one Theophilus — although who this might be is unknown. Traditionally believed to be a Christian convert and patron of Luke, some suggest it might be Theophilus ben Ananus who was the High Priest in Jerusalem c37-4141AD. Whoever, the message of the Gospel was aimed at a wider Gentile Christian audience who were coming under increasing persecution from both Gentiles and Jews.

John was a contemplation on the interior dimension of the Christian teaching, written at Ephesus.

Acts was part two of Luke's work for Theophilus.

The Epistles are letters were written to the persons or communities to whom they are addressed.

The Apocalypse is again a visionary testimony intended to bolster the morale of a persecuted people.

So why you should consider a number of texts, written by Christians for Christians, to be poppycock, I have no idea.

Thomas
 
One question...
Do you believe that the original secret interpretation was "objective truth"?​
I think that's inapplicable in terms of the spirit — to be 'objective' requires empirical measurement, so as spiritual matters are beyond the empirical, those methodologies don't apply.

What I believe is that the oral tradition informs us of the hidden aspects of the written tradition. We can see in documents from as early as 100AD that certain things were assumed 'common knowledge' in Christian circles that aren't explicit in Scripture.

It was evident, for example, that at one time the rumour was put round by anti-Christian elements that Christians ate human flesh in their secret ceremonies. Not true of course, but a distortion of the teaching on the Eucharist. Some teachings were just too precious and too precarious to put into written words.

There is no Oral Tradition, however, that cannot be argued from Scripture, but then again, the Apostles were the source of both.

I disagree with your statement that personal opinion today is seen as objective truth. I think most people are well aware that their viewpoints are just that... personal. Do you really think that people believe their opinions to be without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations?
No, but I do think that people believe the same distortions, prejudices and interpretations render 'objective truth' fallible ... so I do believe that people believe their opinions are as valid, because 'objective truth' is an unobtainable ideal. So opinion validates actions, regardless of the truth of the matter.

Currently we are engaged in a futile 'war against terror' and this country, the UK, was taken to war on the lie that Iraq could launch WMD within 45 minutes ... the English Prime Minister later defended himself on the basis that such was what he believed ... the fact that he was wrong seemed to mean nothing. His beliefs are as valid as truth ...

In the old days a politician would resign when it became clear they had been in error (let alone lied to the people), because they took responsibility for their mistakes. Today, this rarely occurs.

In the 'good old days' we could rely on the fact that out elders and betters would do the honourable thing, and that there was a gun in the drawer in the library ... not so today ...

Oh, and another nothing ... when will anyone say that 'the war on terror' is a facile notion? Declare war on a country, OK. Declare war on an individual, OK. But declare war on a concept?

So we're taking casualties in Afghanistan, and already the serious merchants of terror (as opposed to the Taliban who are really just local tribesfolk) are relocating elsewhere ... Somalia looks to be the next hotspot ...

And how, for the love of God, can anyone who says they are fighting for good, a 'war on terror', fighting for 'truth, justice and the American way' then organise rendition flights to ship suspects to be terrorised and tortured in countries that have despicable human rights records?

At this point: cue Jack Nicholson's rant in 'A Few Good Men' ...

Sorry citizenzen, I'm not having a go at you ... just generally sounding off ...

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
The Bible is a collection of commentaries on the faith of a particular community, by members of that community, and was produced by the community for the benefit of the community.
to which I said, poppycock, which community
Well, they were known first simply as 'the Way' (by Luke in Acts), then as Christians, then as the Catholic Church, by St. Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans written in 107AD.

So why you should consider a number of texts, written by Christians for Christians, to be poppycock, I have no idea.
Namaste Thomas,

Most of the book (what 80-90% of it) was written by Jews. Now I don't even believe all these Jews were of the same community. ie they were written over hundreds of years by folks with differing beliefs. Hence the JEPD the differing versions of creation and the flood which had to be merged..

So we've got the various Jewish Communities, and then the Jews that thought Jesus was Messiah Community (which also had their differences) and then we get the variety of gentiles which were of a variety of 'Christian' beliefs... but one community? To that I say poppycock, to saying that Genesis was written by the same community that the Catholic Church claims as theirs and as the only heirs to interpretting I believe we'd have millions of Jews, Christians and Muslims shouting poppycock in unison.
 
Thank you, Thomas.

That is so much richer than I expected (or probably deserved).
I do understand a number of things much better now. I only wish I could form into coherent words the questions which I still have.

My knowledge regarding the early history of the Christian church is rudimentary, and that rather spotty. But I am a reader of history generally, so the reality of what you say ... makes a lot of sense to me. It jives with other things I know.

Thomas said:
... the texts are not self-explanatory ... they are multi-layered, and the deeper, spiritual meaning, the typological, the analogical and the anagogical, belonged to the oral tradition and then the later emergent commentaries of the Fathers.
Analogical (I assume) = figurative language of Scripture.
Anagogical = mystical meaning of Scripture.
What is the "Typological" meaning?

Is there a category for a "moral" reading of scripture? Or is that handled in a different way in the Scholastic and pre-Scholastic (oral) traditions?
Or is "morality" something for parish priests to deal with, ad hoc, and not much bothered about by Scholastics and early Church Fathers?

Thomas said:
... Why anyone assumes that because they can read something, they understand it's every dimension, escapes me. Most people need poetry explained to them, let alone the sacred texts of a spiritual tradition. I doubt one in a hundred understands the interior meaning of the Iliad, for example, or Shakespeare ...
With Shakespeare, I am one of those one-percenters. I am a very good reader of Shakespeare (but my edition of Shakespeare, admittedly, does have good footnotes, too). The Iliad needs to be read fast to be read correctly. But you need to consult a zillion footnotes just to get all the references. So it is a compromised reading from the start.


Zillion footnotes: Is that what the oral tradition and later Scholastic commentaries of Scripture - in a sense - is ... ?
Crib-notes - a means to figure out (then tomorrow, remember) meaning, one passage at a time?

If so, how does a parishioner get in touch with the whole arc of the Scriptures, or whole arc of any section of it, if they are always doing a detailed reading?
(Or is that just a question for literate modern-day believers - given the illiteracy rates of the last 2000 years?)

Put it this way:
How is the WHOLE message, the whole CONTEXT, of the Scriptures to be discovered by those who wish to study it?
(Or does it take years, maybe decades, of detail work {grunt work} ... before they graduate to the "BIG PICTURE classroom," so to speak?)

Thomas said:
... Is the Bible necessary? - for instance.
No. That God chooses to reveal Himself to creation is not necessary, it is a free and gratuitous gift. That God chooses to dialogue with His creature is doubly so. The Bible reveals God in a way that is inaccessible to the human intellect, and reveals something of Himself, and something of man that he could not know. Without Scripture we would be dependent upon Tradition alone, and the evidence suggests, in the detail of doctrinal and theological disputes, that Scripture is an invalid and indeed infallible source of reference in their resolution ...
In some matters, I deeply TRUST 'intellect' - but do NOT trust "human" intellect. I deeply distrust 'mind' and 'consciousness' - and am searching for better neuro-chemical pathways within myself to guide my conduct within the world. (I am dubious about 'prayer' as being that pathway - but the way you describe it has a certain appeal.)

That aside ...
The underlined passages above I simply did not understand. (There may be a typo involved, or some grammar-slips?)
- Scripture is able to break the Gordian knot in testy in-house debates ... at those times when Traditional Answers are helpless in the face of novel dilemmas ... -
You meant something like that? If not ... Thomas, could you please re-phrase? (Thanks.)

Thomas said:
... God is not a man, but although anthropomorphizing the Deity is always dangerous, the gift and grace of a Deity that chooses to communicate with its creature through the most intimate medium, that of the creature's nature, renders the Deity interior to the creature, and invites the creature into the interiority of the Divine 'nature' ...
That is quite lovely, Thomas. I find it damn-near profound ... (excuse my profane wording) ...


It sounds a lot like a discussion some of us are having over on the Secular side of the tracks: [post=208020]The Origins of Intelligence[/post] thread.

Makes me wonder how far apart any of us really are ...
...

Penelope

 
Sorry citizenzen, I'm not having a go at you ... just generally sounding off ...

You're not having a "go" at me, we're in complete agreement when it comes to the idiocy of invasion and occupation as a political solution.

I'd be hesitant though to use politicians as the model for people's ability to see their viewpoints as subjective. Politicians, for the most part, are conditioned to argue their point and justify their position no matter what the circumstances. I do think that most people are far more willing to admit that they don't have all the answers.

I think it's ironic that some of the most objective religious standpoints come from Christians, although you seem to express a less rigidly fundamental viewpoint. Where does this idea that Jesus is the only way to salvation come from? Why aren't people who practice other faiths just as capable of having a connection with God? How do you feel about that Thomas?
 
But today everyone believes their opinion is the equivalent of truth.
Thomas

My opinion concurs with your opinion here Thomas!:)

I think this is a fundamental reason that British society is broken; from this follows notions such that everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault because the world around us exists only for our benefit and pleasure. So look out anyone that tries to get in my way.:(

s.
 
to which I said, poppycock, which community Namaste Thomas,
OK — let me clarify, I was talking specifically of the New Testament — a book written by Christians, for Christians.

Most of the book (what 80-90% of it) was written by Jews.
The most part of the Bible, yes ... but it still remains a fact it was written by Jews, for Jews, detailing their vision of their history, even though from different sources and diffracted into different tribes.

Now I don't even believe all these Jews were of the same community. ie they were written over hundreds of years by folks with differing beliefs. Hence the JEPD the differing versions of creation and the flood which had to be merged..
Same belief — monotheism — and recognisable the same God. Aspects differ, but essentially it is the same.

The history of Rome covers hundreds of years, and a multitude of sources — but there is only one Rome. I think you're making too much of the JEPD sources.

So we've got the various Jewish Communities, and then the Jews that thought Jesus was Messiah Community (which also had their differences) and then we get the variety of gentiles which were of a variety of 'Christian' beliefs... but one community? To that I say poppycock, to saying that Genesis was written by the same community that the Catholic Church claims as theirs and as the only heirs to interpretting I believe we'd have millions of Jews, Christians and Muslims shouting poppycock in unison.
Then you misread me, for I never said that. Christians believe that the Incarnation was the fulfilment of Jewish prophecy. But the Jews don't, and nor to the Muslims ... and the Catholic Church recognises that, so you're disputing a point that's not in dispute. Christ brings a new dispensation, but that does not dispense with the old. Nor is the old abolished ... it is eternal an inviolate. St Paul said as much. The Letter to the Hebrews, by an anonymous author, is an extended commentary on the Jewish priesthood in light of the new dispensation.

Thomas
 
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