Jesus Christ: The God in the midst

[Azure24]

Jesus Christ is a whole lot more than the humble carpenter from Nazareth, Who was born of a virgin and died on a cross. JESUS CHRIST IS EVERYTHING! Everything that ever was, is, or shall be is found in Christ! He is the very CREATOR, SUSTAINER, AND ALMIGHTY GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. God the Father has never directly made Himself known to humanity. It was Jesus Christ Who came to reveal the Father to mankind.

God the Father,

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His SON, Whom He hath appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS, by whom also He MADE THE WORLDS; Who being the BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON, and upholds ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:2-3).

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power or darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of HIS DEAR SON: In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM [Jesus Christ], AND FOR HIM [Jesus Christ]:

And He is BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by Him ALL THINGS CONSIST. And He is the HEAD OF THE BODY, THE CHURCH: Who is the beginning, the firstborn form the dead, that in ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEMINENCE. For it pleased the Father that IN HIM SHOULD ALL FULLNESS DWELL. And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to RECONCILE ALL UNTO HIMSELF; by Him, I say, whether in earth or in heaven" (Col. 1:12:20).

"I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the ENDING, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY" (Rev. 1:8).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM: and without Him was not any thing made that was made. IN HIM WAS LIFE; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:1-3).

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham WAS, I AM" (John 8:58). "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shall thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you" (Ex. 3:14).

Jesus Christ was the GOD of the Old Testament! Jesus Christ was JEHOVAH! Moses SAW and HEARD Jehovah, yet John tells us that,

"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE HAS DECLARED HIM" (John 1:18).

And this,

"And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, has born witness of Me. Ye have neither HEARD HIS VOICE at any time, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE" (John 5:37).

"For the Father judges no man, but has committed ALL JUDGMENT UNTO THE SON" (John 5:22).

"And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH" (Matt. 28:18).

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST" (I Cor. 10:1-4).

 

[Azure24]

Let’s look at Matt. 14 next, and learn a great lesson from this physical type of a spiritual reality.

"And when He had sent the multitudes away, He went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, He was there alone. But the ship was now in the midst…"

Jesus always operates, teaches, and saves, from ‘the midst.'

Matt. 18:20—"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the MIDST of them."

Luke 2:46— "…they found Him [Jesus] in the temple, sitting in the MIDST of the doctors…"

Luke 5:19— "And when they could not find by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with his couch into the MIDST before Jesus."

Luke. 24:36— "And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the MIDST of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."

John. 7:14— "Now about the MIDST of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught."

John 19:18—"Where they crucified Him, and two other with Him, on either side one, and Jesus in the MIDST."

John. 8:9—"And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the MIDST."

John. 8:59— "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the MIDST of them, and so passed by."

Rev. 1:13—"And in the MIDST of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man…" Etc. Etc. Etc.

God in the Old Testament operated in the midst.

Exodus. 3:4— "And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the MIDST of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."

Deu. 4:12— "And the LORD spake unto you out of the MIDST of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice."

Joshua. 4:5—"And Joshua said unto them, Pass over before the ark of the LORD your God into the MIDST of Jordan, and take you up every man of you a stone upon his shoulder, according unto the number of the tribes of the children of Israel"

Psalm 46:5— "God is in the MIDST of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early." Etc. Etc. Etc.

Now then, where do you suppose that it is that the Body of Christ, (God's elect) the Sons of God, receive their trials, training, and experience of overcoming this world? Answer:

"That ye [all of you] may be blameless and harmless [innocent], the SONS OF GOD, without rebuke [fault], in the MIDST of a crooked and perverse nation [generation], among whom ye shine as lights in the world."

It always amazes me how so many people when they truly want to become holy, go off somewhere in an isolated monastery to get away from the world. Yet Jesus trains us right in the MIDDLE of this crime-ridden and sin-sick world—in the MIDST.

 

[Dream]

How is it going Azure? Is this something you are working on, and is it something you would like to have tested in the forum? After reading your nice work I have a set of verses you did not mention in your research. They represent some of the difficulty I have with what you are saying. If you can integrate them, then you can refine your theory. To be thorough you need them to fit in somehow:

• Midst Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midstof you, as ye yourselves also know: Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
  
  [*]Jesus
  Hebrews 5:7-8 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
  
  John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
  
  Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:

 

[Thomas]

Hi Azure —

It always amazes me how so many people when they truly want to become holy, go off somewhere in an isolated monastery to get away from the world. Yet Jesus trains us right in the MIDDLE of this crime-ridden and sin-sick world—in the MIDST.

Remember that when Jesus wanted to pray, He went into the desert (cf Mark 1:35), and told his disciples to make a place apart from the world.

Remember also that it was in the desert that His spirit was tempered, and it was in the desert that He was tempted by the devil ... not in the cities, not in the towns ... if you can stand the desert, you can stand the worst the town can throw at you ... the desert is the tougher test, by far.

Then there's the story of Martha and Mary:
"Now it came to pass as they went, that he entered into a certain town: and a certain woman named Martha, received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, who sitting also at the Lord's feet, heard his word. But Martha was busy about much serving. Who stood and said: Lord, hast thou no care that my sister hath left me alone to serve? speak to her therefore, that she help me. And the Lord answering, said to her: Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled about many things: But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:38-41)

The isolation of the monastery actually brings one face-to-face with the world in a most immediate manner — in oneself — and there is no escape, whereas in the world, there are many, many distractions with which we can occupy ourselves.

I would say that within the walls of the monastery, the monk challenges the world in a way that few 'in the world' could ever imagine, or ever want to take on.

Then again, the Desert Fathers, the hermits who were first to embrace the monastic lifestyle, were not unaware of the situation:

This is a story they tell:
"When blessed Antony was praying in his cell, a voice spoke to him, saying, "Antony, you have not yet come to the measure of the the tanner who is in Alexandria." When he heard this, the old man arose and took his stick and hurried into the city. When he had found the tanner...he said to him, "Tell me about your work, for today I have left the desert and come here to see you."

He replied, "I am not aware that I have done anything good. When I get up in the morning, before I sit down to work, I say that the whole of this city, small and great, will go into the Kingdom of God because of their good deeds, while I alone will go into eternal punishment because of my evil deeds. Every evening I repeat the same words and believe them in my heart."

When blessed Antony heard this he said, "My son, you sit in your own house and work well, and you have the peace of the Kingdom of God; but I spend all my time in solitude with no distractions, and i have not come near the measure of such words."

So you make a good point ... but I might suggest that it's not just being in the midst that matters, it's what's in the heart that matters more?

Thomas

 

[Azure24]

Hi all,

• Midst Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midstof you, as ye yourselves also know: Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Hi Dream.
Of course the verses I used are not the only times these words are used (though Acts. 2:22 and Gen. 1:6 use different wordsin Greek and Hebrew which are translated midst).

(Acts. 2:22) I am quite confused by what you are saying... Everything Jesus did He learned from the Father. Everything Jesus did, the Father did through Him.

"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).

"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

Jesus Christ and His Father are One, they’re one Spirit. You have the Father and you have the Son, but they’re one.

Jesus Christ is NOT God the Father...

"For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

God the Father created the Universe IN Christ.

Here is something most people have not noticed...

"I am [Jesus] Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:8)

"In the BEGINNING [Jesus] God created the heavens and the earth."

(Acts 17:22)

Paul was one of God's elect...Jesus Christ is IN God's elect...

"I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME , and gave Himself for ME " (Gal. 2:20).

• Jesus
  
  Hebrews 5:7-8 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
  
  ​
• Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:

(Hebrews 5:7-8) Before Jesus was a man He was like His Father. He had to "lower" Himself to become a man.

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John. 17:5)

(Matthew 11:11) I don't know what you mean by this...

John was not Spiritually converted,...Let's read the rest of the verse...

"...yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he"

John was "...born of women...". As for God's elect...

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

Born of what?

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John. 3:6)

 

[Azure24]

Remember that when Jesus wanted to pray, He went into the desert (cf Mark 1:35), and told his disciples to make a place apart from the world.

Ah, but prayer is a completely different matter...

Remember also that it was in the desert that His spirit was tempered, and it was in the desert that He was tempted by the devil ... not in the cities, not in the towns ... if you can stand the desert, you can stand the worst the town can throw at you ... the desert is the tougher test, by far.

True. But the desert represented something else also...

"And every one that hears these sayings of mine and does them NOT, shall be likened unto a foolish man [yes, there are ‘foolish saints’], which built his house upon THE SAND; And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house, and IT FELL: and GREAT was the fall of it" (Matt. 7:24-27).

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw…" (Rev. 13:1).

John "stood on the sand of the sea," (In other words everyone FIRST builds their spiritual house in the sand...It's true) and we must ALL ‘stand on the sand of the sea.’

Jesus had built a spiritual house. His house was about to be tested to see if it could withstand the rain, and flood, and wind. Satan would do all in his power to bring down the spiritual house of Jesus. But His house did not fall under the temptation of Satan, for he was FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, and His spiritual house was ‘built upon THE Rock’ (John 3:34).

Note: Jesus Christ IS the rock, not Peter...

"But the ship was now in the midst of the sea [or lake] TOSSED with the waves…" (Matt. 14:24)

I once made post saying the sea represents humanity (lowest Spiritual level) and the wind and the sea (e.g. roaring waves) represent sinful humanity...

Jude tells us that, "filthy dreamers," who "defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities," "brute beasts," those who have "gone the way of Can," and are after "the error of Balaam," and those who "perished in the gainsaying of core," these are "spots in your feasts of charity … RAGING WAVES OF THE SEA…" (Jude 8-13).

"The WATERS which you saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." (Rev. 17:15)

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a [wild] beast rise up OUT OF THE SEA [the vast sea of humanity]" (Rev. 13:1).

Notice that Babylon’s "…waves do roar like great waters…" (Ver. 55).But then in verse 36 we read this:

"Therefore thus says the Lord; Behold, I will plead your cause, and take vengeance for thee; and I will DRY UP HER SEA…"

"And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of her mouth that which he has swallowed up: and THE NATIONS [the waters of ‘peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues’ Rev. 17:15] shall not flow [like waters] together any more unto him, and the wall of Babylon shall fall" (Verse 44).

anyhow, notice how Jesus commands the sea / waters...

"And He arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, PEACE, BE STILL. And the wind ceased, and there was a GREAT CALM. And He said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? How is it that ye have no faith? And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of Man is this, that even the WIND AND THE SEA OBEY HIM?" (Mark 4:39-41).

This is actually a phrophecy for the slavation of the world...

and we read in Rev. 21:1

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

etc, etc, etc....Anyway back to Matt. 14:24.

Was this a good thing that the disciples were being "tossed" with the waves? Not according to them. They were frightened! But Jesus wanted them to experience this "tossing" with the waves.
Jesus did not come to them until the "fourth watch" (between 3 and 6 am), when they were now "in the MIDST of the sea." And the winds and waves were very strong so that they were being "TOSSED."
Notice that it was Jesus Who commanded them to take this ship to the other shore:

"And straightway Jesus constrained [Greek: ‘compelled’] His disciples to get into a ship, and to go before Him unto the other side, while He sent the multitudes away" (Matt. 14:22).
​

Why did Jesus need to "constrain or compel" them? The word "constrained" in this verse is translated from the Greek word anankazo, and notice its definition:

"Anankazo denotes ‘to put constraint upon, to constrain, to compel, whether by threat, entreaty, force or persuasion." Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 18.
​

Wow! "To compel, whether by THREAT, ENTREATY, FORCE or PERSUASION."
No one with a carnal mind ever desires the judgments of God. We aren’t told exactly how much threat, entreaty, force or persuasion Jesus used on the disciples to get them to take their boat into the sea, but we know for sure from the word itself, that it took more than a casual suggestion that they go. Likewise, we read that those who must go through the lake of fire, are

"…CAST into the lake of fire…,"
​

"…CAST into the lake of fire…" (Rev. 20:10, 15).
​

They will not want to go voluntarily. And so it is true that:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb. 10:31)
​

But it is still far better to be "in the hands of the Living God" than to be anywhere else!

It sounds to me like His disciples DIDN’T WANT TO GO! Jesus didn’t just say: "You go on, fellows, and I’ll catch up with you later." No, He COMPELLED them to go! They obviously didn’t want to go. The sea was probably ALREADY turbulent and scary, and I am sure they realized the further they went from shore the worse it would be. They were afraid to go, but Jesus "COMPELLED" them to go; they had to go! And so they went.

Let me give you a verse that I have never heard quoted in my life. It is not a popular verse. I doubt that very many will even remember having read it:

"Very truly, I tell you, when you were younger, you used to fasten your own belt and to go wherever you wished. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will fasten a belt around you and take you WHERE YOU DO NOT WISH TO GO" (John 21:18, New Revised Standard Version).
​

All of the apostles came to understand this verse experientially, as am I "TOSSED."
The word "tossed" appears but four times in the New Testament, and all four times it is translated from a different word. In this verse, tossed is translated from the Greek word basanizo, and here is its definition: "#928. basanizo, to torture:--torment. Basanizo, as a verb, properly signifies in Greek

(1) ‘to test by rubbing on the touchstone’ [basanos, ‘a touchstone’], then,
(1a) ‘to question by applying torture’; hence
(1b)‘to vex, torment’;
(2) in the NT in the passive voice,
(2a) ‘to be harassed, (2b) distressed’;
(2c) it is said of men struggling in a boat against wind and waves: ‘But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed (bazanizo) with waves: for the wind was contrary’ (Mat. 14:24; Mark 6:48)." (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 51).
​

This is mental, emotional, spiritual torment.

"And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto Him, Son, why has thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing (Greek: basanos)" (Luke 2:48).
​

Nor those who go through the fire of I Cor. 3:15, nor those who go through , "the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Strong’s Dictionary tells us that basanizo can mean: "to question by applying torture."
It ought to be apparent to anyone that for God, "to question" someone by "applying torture" is silly. God ALREADY KNOWS what is in man. He doesn’t need to torture him to learn the truth. But it is absolutely necessary for man to go through this bassnizo, or torment because it is part of his spiritual development and spiritual perfection.

So you make a good point ... but I might suggest that it's not just being in the midst that matters, it's what's in the heart that matters more?

Thomas

Yeah I agree.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Azure —

Ah, but prayer is a completely different matter...

Yes ... prayer is the highest vocation for man ... everything is subsequent to that.

True. But the desert represented something else also...

No ... now you're talking about sand. My point is, that when Christ wanted to pray, He withdrew himself 'from the midst' ... He went to the desert, or an inaccessible place, or a quiet garden ... careful not to confuse analogies ... a man can build a house in the desert, on rock, and a man can build a house without foundation, in the midst.

Note: Jesus Christ IS the rock, not Peter...

Really? Check out Matthew 16:18. The traditional reading is that Peter is the rock, which is why Jesus named him Cephas when his given name was Simon: John 1:42.

Jesus refers to Himself as the headstone or cornerstone, but not the rock.

The rock upon which the Church is built is faith ... faith in Christ, yes, but faith is the point here. That faith is expressed by Peter in Matthew's Gospel: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (16:16) ... it is on that faith that the Church stands.

As is evident today, many people have faith in Christ as all sorts of different things: As 'the Son of the living God' of Scripture, but also as just a man (not God) as a demigod (and not a man), as a hero, as an alien ... all in good faith perhaps, but built on sand ...

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

Yes ... prayer is the highest vocation for man ... everything is subsequent to that.

Thomas, are you saying that the highest purpose for which a man or woman are born and exist is to pray ?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Yes ... prayer is the highest vocation for man ...

...but not for women? (seems a bit sexist)

Personally, I believe our vocation is to grow into The Likeness, and prayer is just part of the process.

 

[Thomas]

Thomas, are you saying that the highest purpose for which a man or woman are born and exist is to pray ?

According to the teachings of the saints and mystics, man comes no closer to God then when in prayer.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

According to the teachings of the saints and mystics, man comes no closer to God then when in prayer.Thomas

So once again are you saying that the highest purpose for which a man or woman are born, exist and were created is to pray ?

Are any of these saints or mystics married ?

I asked you before if during the last 200, 300 or 400 years, there is one canonised saint that was married ?

When God says that it is not good for man to be alone, what does this mean to you ?

 

[soleil10]

According to the teachings of the saints and mystics, man comes no closer to God then when in prayer.Thomas

Thomas, I would like to ask you also if there are any mystics or saints (that you are refering to) who talked about the closeness to God within the prayers of couples (man+ woman) or families.

 

[Azure24]

Hi all,

Thomas, I will quote your original statement...

... if you can stand the desert, you can stand the worst the town can throw at you ... the desert is the tougher test, by far.

And why is that? Becuase there's nothing to drink? Remeber, when He was in the desert what did Satan tempt Him with?

"Again, the Devil takes Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and shows Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and says to Him, All these things will I give You, if You will fall down and worship me" "Matt. 4:8-9).

"LOVE NOT THE WORLD [that is the social system of this world, we are to love the people of the world], neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" (I John 2:15-16).

How can we overcome the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes or even the world if we do not face it...?

Really? Check out Matthew 16:18. The traditional reading is that Peter is the rock, which is why Jesus named him Cephas when his given name was Simon: John 1:42.

Jesus refers to Himself as the headstone or cornerstone, but not the rock.

Most things believed by MANY are almost always wrong...

"And the GREAT DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called THE DEVIL, and SATAN [Heb: Adversary], which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD..."

Do not be deceived Thomas, Jesus Christ IS the rock...

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST" (I Cor. 10:1-4).

Always pay close attenetion to the words...

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [Greek, petros, a piece of detached stone or rock], and upon THIS ROCK` [Greek, petra {a different kind of rock}, a mass of rock that cannot be moved as in Matt. 7:24 and 27:60, which is distinct from petros which is a smaller detached rock that can be moved] will I built MY CHURCH; and the gates of the unseen [hades] shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). Jesus named Simon, "Cephas"(Peter is the Greek translation of Cephas which is Chaldee):

"And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, He said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone [not a rock, see?]" (John 1:42),

that is, a smaller detached stone or rock in contrast to Himself Who is a huge unmovable mass of foundational BEDROCK. See Luke 6:48. The Church of the Living God is build upon CHRIST, not Peter! And so it is upon this SPIRITUAL, unmovable, foundational, bedrock of Jesus Christ that we are to be built into a new spiritual creation.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Azure —

And why is that? Becuase there's nothing to drink? Remeber, when He was in the desert what did Satan tempt Him with?

Why does Christ go into the desert to pray? Why does Christ tell us to go to a private place to pray: "enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee." Matthew 6:6

How can we overcome the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes or even the world if we do not face it...?

By transcending it. Don't deal in it. Rise above it. The world is full of tricks, traps and illusions, and if we try to overcome the world in ourselves, it will defeat us. Better to come close to Christ, and then the world falls away.

Do not be deceived Thomas, Jesus Christ IS the rock...

Jesus is the rock, the door, the bread, the way, the truth, the life, the good shepherd, the light of the world ... all these terms have to be understood in content of the totality of Scripture. Indeed, Remove them from it, and they become available for all manner of interpretation.

Take 'day star' — the Latin Old Testament the figure refers to the King of Babylon, who set himself up as a god ... and the Fathers attribute the figure to Lucifer, for both the angel and the king fell victim to their own pride ... but Peter uses the term as a figure for Jesus "until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts" 2 Peter 1:19.

Do we then deduce that if both Lucifer and Jesus are the day star, that they are the same? No, we have to read the text in context to discern its meaning. I'm not saying that the interpretations you draw are wrong, but I am positing that the emphasis you apply to certain aspects, drawn out of context, distorts the vision and the message of the text.

Always pay close attenetion to the words...

That's been proven insufficient. The Text Criticism is now widely regarded as a deeply flaws process if conducted in isolation ... a text critic will explain your texts away to nothing, by close attention to the words ... so you have to pay attention to the words, the text, the context ...

... that is, a smaller detached stone or rock in contrast to Himself Who is a huge unmovable mass of foundational BEDROCK. See Luke 6:48. The Church of the Living God is build upon CHRIST, not Peter! And so it is upon this SPIRITUAL, unmovable, foundational, bedrock of Jesus Christ that we are to be built into a new spiritual creation.

I don't doubt that at all — I am Catholic, we believe we are a new creation in Christ — nowhere do we say we believe in Peter for Peter's sake ... but your exegesis is flat wrong. The Greek lexicon describes the name Petros as the masculine name deriving from the same root as the noun petra (as does the femine name Petra) and thus the names draw their meaning from the noun, which can mean a stone, rock, cliff, ledge, the idea of 'a smaller detached stone' is invention.

I'm not disagreeing with you in principle ... just in your interpretation of the text.

Used matephorically in the language of antiquity, the appellation is applied to one who resembles a rock, either by physical stature, or by an unyielding nature, or an indomitable spirit, or unshakable faith ... in that moment Jesus was addressing the faith of Peter, although, as well all know, faith is prone to waver at times ...

Thus I would suggest a more 'useful' interpretation of Matthew 16:18 is not that Christ is declaring Himself the rock (it does not do that syntaxically, anyway) ... because we know that ... what Christ is acclaiming — and here one has to read what went before to see why Christ said what he did, and to whom — is that it is upon faith He will build His church.

Furthermore we believe, and the text supports this, is that faith in God is given by God, when Peter said "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God", Jesus said "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven" and immediately calls Peter the rock upon which the church is built.

It is on that reception of that Revelation that Christ builds His church, which only comes through faith in God, not through any operation of the intellect.

In my lexicon, Kephas, from the Chaldee, meaning 'rock'.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Thomas, I would like to ask you also if there are any mystics or saints (that you are refering to) who talked about the closeness to God within the prayers of couples (man+ woman) or families.

Yes, I am sure there are, although a name does not spring to mind.

My point is, a right relation in the family won't make you right by God, but if you're right by God, and your family are right by God, then your family will be right too ... I know families who are loving, generous, moral and ethical ... but don't believe in God.

Get your relationship with God right first, and everything else falls into place. It's simply a matter of priorities.

The sin in the garden did not transgress against the family, it was a transgression against God and the Divine Order. In upsetting that order, the unity of the family was lost — Adam and Eve saw themselves as naked and were ashamed ... but this was a by-product of the actual sin, which was in disobeying the will of God not to over-reach themselves in the pursuit of a false good.

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

Yes, I am sure there are, although a name does not spring to mind.

Please can you still check for me ? I have not been able to find any.

My point is, a right relation in the family won't make you right by God, but if you're right by God, and your family are right by God, then your family will be right too ... I know families who are loving, generous, moral and ethical ... but don't believe in God.

I totally agree. This is what gen 1:28 says.

first become mature/fruitful (spiritually), then you can create a God Centered family with your spouse (which should be also spirutally mature.

Where I differ with you is that I believe the God centered family brings us to experience the 3 dimensions of love (parental, children and conjugal) and it is the next level of spiritual growth that goes far beyond being a mystic.

Since God is both masculine and feminine, the couple represents God's image. We find the other side of God's in our spouse.Monk cannot discover half of God. Our spiritual stability greatly increase when we are with our spouse, otherwise, we are a half person and settle for some band aid.

The force of love is the stongest force in the universe. Retreiving from the fallen world to reduce tempation and focus on prayer is a poor placebo. Learning to love the other side of God is part of God planned spiritual growth and training on earth for each one of us

Actually our sexual organ belongs to our spouse not to us. It should be the holiest place in our body.

Only having a family can connect us to the future through our children. God's who is a Parent wants us to experience parental love. It is the highest unconditional love.

The sin in the garden did not transgress against the family, it was a transgression against God and the Divine Order. In upsetting that order, the unity of the family was lost — Adam and Eve saw themselves as naked and were ashamed ... but this was a by-product of the actual sin, which was in disobeying the will of God not to over-reach themselves in the pursuit of a false good.Thomas

Yes the original sin started from Lucifer then Eve, then Adam as individuals. It destroyed the potential for the divine family God wanted A&E to have. They were to become our true ancestors.

The original sin is transmitted from generation to generation through our blood lineage. Jesus said all iniquity starts from the heart.
The original sin started in the heart of Lucifer and is connected to the destruction of God centered love.

 

[Dream]

Mercy and Truth

Psalm 85:9-11 Surely His salvation is nigh them that fear Him; that glory may dwell in our land. Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Truth springeth out of the earth; and righteousness hath looked down from heaven.

Hi Dream.
Of course the verses I used are not the only times these words are used (though Acts. 2:22 and Gen. 1:6 use different wordsin Greek and Hebrew which are translated midst).

Yes, it is not the only time those words are used. Though the Greek and Hebrew are two different words, yet they do mean 'midst' just like a river runs midst its two banks which guide its flow. Similarly we have pain and pleasure, neither of which is possible for us to have completely all of the time. We also have truth vs. mercy and we must navigate between not going too far towards either extreme. The path of man is not to the right, like an angel because we are but men, nor to the left like an animal since we are greater. In the midst of these two things is the path to life. We do not like it and would rather turn back, but it is as if we are hemmed in on either side so that we cannot turn around. It is like the path Israel took with Moses. Instead of the broad path along the Philistine coast, they were led through the narrow pass which led only to the Red Sea and they could not turn around because the pass was too narrow. This is the straight and narrow path. Neither the 'right eye' nor the 'left eye' alone can determine it.

Exodus 13:16-17 It shall be as a mark on your hand or frontlets between your eyes; for by a strong hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt." When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, "Lest the people repent when they see war, and return to Egypt."

Ecc 7:16-18 Be not righteous overmuch, and do not make yourself overwise; why should you destroy yourself? Be not wicked overmuch, neither be a fool; why should you die before your time? It is good that you should take hold of this, and from that withhold not your hand; for he who fears God shall come forth from them all.

Exodus 14:22 And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.

Isaiah 30:21 And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, "This is the way, walk in it," when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.

(Acts. 2:22) I am quite confused by what you are saying... Everything Jesus did He learned from the Father. Everything Jesus did, the Father did through Him.

Good, because I am a little confused about what you are saying as well. I think that in this post I'm presenting another aspect of 'In the midst'. We have both a left and a right side and that is a big deal in scriptures. We are constantly faced with choices of which way to go. The only solution is always that we must move forward not backward.

This is related to the concept of God being in the midst of the people. Similarly in the body of Christ there are both honorable and shameful parts but all are honored. There is both a right and a left, not just a right or just a left. The Lord is in the midst.

Rom 12:4-5 For as in one bodywe have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one bodyin Christ, and individually members one of another.

 

[Thomas]

Please can you still check for me ? I have not been able to find any.

I think you'd be better served by understanding the doctrine, as the saints and mystics speak from there.

Theology of the Body is a good a place as any to approach a massive subject.

The Family in God's Plan in the Catechism of the Catholic Church might suit you better.

first become mature/fruitful (spiritually), then you can create a God Centered family with your spouse (which should be also spirutally mature.

Just my point. The individual relationship with God is prior to the family.

Without that relationship, there is no foundation to the family.

Where I differ with you is that I believe the God centered family brings us to experience the 3 dimensions of love (parental, children and conjugal) and it is the next level of spiritual growth that goes far beyond being a mystic.

And this is where I think you're on your own, for no-one else holds that. I would suggest the '3 dimensions of love' are reflections of the Trinity, and the family is just one reflection of Trinitarian love, but it's not the only reflection, and a reflection is just a reflection — what lives inwardly depends on the individual, and that is what they contribute to the family.

Since God is both masculine and feminine, the couple represents God's image.

More accurately, since God is neither masculine nor feminine, human nature represents God's image (as Scripture says, Genesis 1:27 — human nature is created in the Divine image, and then is aspected into masculine and femine, not because God is, but because of the nature of the created order).

We find the other side of God's in our spouse.

God is not separated, nor broken up, nor divided out ... so the soul knows God by degree, but it's the whole God, not an aspect or a part of God.

Monk cannot discover half of God.

Nonsense. Sorry, but it is. Just just making this up now, to suit your own argument. Show me one saint, one mystic, one monk who wished he was married because he would be a better saint/monk/mystic if he was.

Our spiritual stability greatly increase when we are with our spouse, otherwise, we are a half person and settle for some band aid.

Nonsense again. Our spiritual stability is in direct proportion to our relationship to God, not to our wives. They provide earthly comfort and solace and companionship, but they do not replace God, nor do they provide something that God Himself cannot provide.

The force of love is the stongest force in the universe.

Yes it is ... but not the love you're talking about ... you're talking about the requirement you have of a spouse to make you feel a complete person ... true love is not about requirement, true love is about freedom.

Retreiving from the fallen world to reduce tempation and focus on prayer is a poor placebo.

Rubbish. You don't understand Christianity and you certainly have no idea what prayer is at all. Prayer is love ... and when we pray with a true heart, then the Holy Spirit enters the soul and prays with us — see Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:6.

Only having a family can connect us to the future through our children. God's who is a Parent wants us to experience parental love. It is the highest unconditional love.

Only having a family only ensures continuance of the species for another generation ... that's all it does.

Only the love of God can ensure eternal life ... doesn't depend on being married, doesn't depend on family.

Read your New Testament for a change: "and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 19:11 — by eunuchs is meant those who elect for the celibate life.

Read 1 Corinthians 7:37-38 — The married life is good, but the celibate life dedicated to God is better.

Read the exchange between Jesus and Martha and Mary — Martha is the housewife, the one encumbered by the cares of the world that diverts her attention from 'the one thing necessary' ..

... and do yourself a favour: Assume, just for a minute, that there might just be the smallest chance that you might have it wrong, and see if you can find anyone else who supports your thesis. Otherwise, you're on your own.

Thomas

 

[steadfast199]

Jesus is not God. Otherwise how could this scripture be true.

(Hebrews 5:8) 8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. . .




How can God almighty learn obedience?

 

[soleil10]

Jesus is not God. Otherwise how could this scripture be true.
(Hebrews 5:8) 8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. . .
How can God almighty learn obedience?

I agree with you. Jesus was a man who was born sinless and who restored the failure of Adam. He had to go through many challenges victoriously in order to acquire a divine nature and become one with God