Jesus Christ: The God in the midst

[shawn]

wil:
I see spirituality as that... Oh I wanna get closer to G!d...or I wanna be more spiritual... Well you can't be either...you have arrived, you must just open your eyes.

Nailed it bro.

 

[Thomas]

Not at all, Thomas. I was merely giving you an example you and I have discussed before - St John of the Cross - that contradicts the assertion that prayer is the highest vocation for man (
your Post #7).

Sorry, but I think you misread St John. what did he do, but pray?

Moreover, this position would be seen as unBiblical if you accept the view of vocation that appears in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, namely, that the goal of Christian living is divinisation, it is very possible that one might lead a fully spiritualized life and spend very little time in prayer.

If you think that Divine Union means that the human will cease rto dialogue with the Divine, I really think you need to examine what you think Divine Union, and prayer, is.

What St John of the Cross says about the imperfections and inadequacies of prayer was worth noting in connection with the assertion that prayer appears as the ultimate method of
communion in mystical theology.

I think you'll find the imperfections and inadequacies lie with human nature, not with prayer as a practice, but with the misuse/misdirection of the practice ...

I wanted to add that my reading of St John of the Cross is that conventional practices like prayer are associated with emotional distress.

No, I think you're turning prayer into a psychologism.

In this connection, I might mention St Theresa, whose writing resembles St John's with respect to the uselessness of conventional religious practice: "Nothing can now profit the soul. Hence all
its good works are useless." (The Interior Castle, p. 11). She
states this after describing the inadequacies of usual prayer
habits.

Sorry, but I am aghast ... St Teresa, 'The Doctor of Prayer' ... she writes The Interior Castle, which is a mystical treatise on prayer, in which she offers an insight into the pitfalls, from which you deduce the whole practice is bankrupt!

Netti-Netti — rarely have I come across such partisan misrepresentation.

Perhaps you missed the bit where St Teresa said:
"...I know from experience — namely that no one who has begun this practice (of daily prayer) however many sins he may commit, should never forsake it." or

"Anyone who has not begun to pray, (regularly and daily ) I beg, for the love of the Lord, not to miss so great a blessing. There is no place here (in the convent) for fear, but only desire."

Or perhaps you were only looking for the bits to serve your thesis?

Thomas

 

[Netti-Netti]

Sorry, but I think you misread St John. what did he do, but pray?

I'm pretty sure he did much more than that. In fact, didn't he get into trouble with the Church for his various enterprises?

If you think that Divine Union means that the human will cease to dialogue with the Divine, I really think you need to examine what you think Divine Union, and prayer, is.

This bit of condescension strikes as dodging the implication of my disagreeing with your blanket (and sexist) assertion that "prayer is the highest vocation for man." Obviously this would not hold if it were strictly self-centered prayer (supplications and comfort seeking).

The assertion you made about prayer being the highest vocation is also unrealistic. Mystical states involving certain kinds of prayer can be very powerful and hard to endure, so much that it makes little sense to view such prayerful states as a goal. I think these experiences have value because they shed light on purpose or vocation. That is, they are a means to an end rather than an end in itself. Divinely inspired work can be more important and constructive than isolated mystical experiences and just as effective in harmonizing with Divine Will as prayer. There is no a priori reason to think that prayer or any other kind of ritual devotion is superior to divine work.

I think you'll find the imperfections and inadequacies lie with human nature, not with prayer as a practice, but with the misuse/misdirection of the practice ...

There are various kinds of prayer.

Sorry, but I am aghast ... St Teresa, 'The Doctor of Prayer' ... she writes The Interior Castle, which is a mystical treatise on prayer, in which she offers an insight into the pitfalls, from which you deduce the whole practice is bankrupt!

You have misstated my argument. I merely wanted to point out that prayer does not have intrinsic properties that would lead one to conclude that prayer is an ultimate state or a particularly supreme spiritual activity. Again, self-centered prayer (supplications and comfort seeking) would not necessarily bring closeness to G-d.

Netti-Netti — rarely have I come across such partisan misrepresentation.

I always enjoy the condescension.

Perhaps you missed the bit where St Teresa said:

"...I know from experience — namely that no one who has begun this practice (of daily prayer) however many sins he may commit, should never forsake it." or

"Anyone who has not begun to pray, (regularly and daily ) I beg, for the love of the Lord, not to miss so great a blessing. There is no place here (in the convent) for fear, but only desire."
​

Good quotes, but notice that they do not support your contention about prayer's ultimacy, which is what I was talking about.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Namaste Wil,

I think it is impossible to get physically closer or further away from G!D. As in him we live and breathe and have our being.

Tis like trying to get closer to or running away from your skin, or bones, or shadow. Now we may lose awareness of this proximity, or take it for granted, but we are never alone.

True, but G-d is the Great Innovator who comes up with ever new ways for us to grow into His likeness. Maybe just to keep it interesting....

Still reminds me of the Dali Lama, 'You know you are enlightened when everyone you see, you see as enlightened'...

This doesn't make much sense to me because ordinarily people only recognize what they themselves have experienced. The implication of the Dali Lama's statement, then, is that everyone you interact with is enlightened.

and my preacher says "So I went to the mall to see how far I have to go!"

And Eckardt Tolle, enlightenment is something that you can't strive for, as it will never happen in the future, it can only happen in the now.

Maybe it's a matter of becoming a little more enlightened tomorrow than we were today.

 

[Thomas]

I'm pretty sure he did much more than that. In fact, didn't he get into trouble with the Church for his various enterprises?

Not for praying ... nor for the promotion of prayer.

This bit of condescension strikes as dodging the implication of my disagreeing with your blanket (and sexist) assertion that "prayer is the highest vocation for man."

OK. Let me rephrase for your sensibilities ... it seems to me that humanity, as a created nature, can have no greater calling than participation in the life of the Uncreated.

The assertion you made about prayer being the highest vocation is also unrealistic.

I don't think so. You may think so ... but certainly St John of the Cross and St Teresa didn't think so ... and nor does, nor has, Christianity ever thought otherwise ...

Mystical states involving certain kinds of prayer can be very powerful and hard to endure, so much that it makes little sense to view such prayerful states as a goal.

Mystical states is not the goal of prayer ... nor does a mystical state necessarily mean one has achieved the highest goal.

Many people fail to comprehend that you don't become a mystic, as understood in the Christian Tradition, is not by practice, nor by design; it's not something you do ... mystical states are a gift and grace and are not something one attains by labour or effort or any other method or empirical means ... so I would not confuse mystical states as a correlative of prayer, they usually signify something else, as there are many different kinds of state, it depends upon to what order of service/witness the mystic is called.

Divinely inspired work ...

... is perceived, in the Christian Tradition, as a prayer, being the life and activity of the Holy Spirit in the soul. This is the traditional exegesis of 1 Thessalonians 5:17 "Pray without ceasing".

"The Way of the Pilgrim", "The Interior Castle", "The Cloud of Unknowing", "The Dark Night of the Soul" "The Ladder of Perfection", "The Journey of the Mind into God", to name but a few, are all regarded as classics beyond the boundaries of the Christian Tradition — you may think they're wrong, but you'd have a hard case convincing anyone else.

Thomas

 

[path_of_one]

OK. Let me rephrase for your sensibilities ... it seems to me that humanity, as a created nature, can have no greater calling than participation in the life of the Uncreated.

I like this. The way I see it, prayer and meditation (which I define by opening up to, and then receiving from/listening to, God) is the foundational work for all else. Prayer and contemplation/meditation are not things that I do, but states of being that I try to remain in. When I am in a prayerful state, everything else I do becomes sacred and my awareness is heightened, not only to God, but to all beings. I sort of see prayer (in this manner) as a pre-requisite for living a sacred life.

One can do the right things for the wrong reasons, and this applies to anything- whether prayer, or giving to others, or acting in morally right ways. To me, God is concerned with our state of being, our motivations and our intent, as much as He is concerned with the what and how of our lives.

Prayer is really prayer when it is done in a manner that opens oneself to the Divine, and allows a transformation of one's will. Otherwise, it's just (often literally) lip service. So to me, it isn't so much to say that prayer is not the highest calling, but that not everything some claims is prayer is prayer.

We can have no higher calling than to become one with God, to be transformed and refined by God's presence, and to consistently turn our attention toward Him. I know of no other grounding in Christianity that truly transforms one's life into a sacred act, making all one's other works meaningful spiritually and not only physically.

Mystical states is not the goal of prayer ... nor does a mystical state necessarily mean one has achieved the highest goal...

Sort of depends on one's definition of mysticism. If one defines it as seeking a personal relationship with the Divine, then prayer is intimately entwined in it. But if one means getting into some trance or other state, the statement is spot on.

As I see it, the highest goal of prayer is no less than the utter transformation of the human being, the union of God and the human being, of divinity and humanity. Though I am far from this state, I have caught glimpses that have shown me that mysticism in the sense of rapturous, glorious states of mind (and alternatively, the dark abyss of existential pain and suffering) while in God's presence, are a gift but not the transformation. It is up to me whether I use such experiences as transformative or not.

I was sort of born with a mystical personality. This type of thing comes easily to me. But it is only worth something spiritually if I choose to engage it in a journey of transformation and surrender to the Divine. It is easy to become addicted to seeking the good mystical experiences and to wallow in misery when one feels "alone." But this is no different from anyone seeking escape through drugs or any other "worldly" means. The key is being transformed in such a way that one is faithful and consistent in waiting before God whether or not one has mystical experiences.

In this way, I find that prayer and contemplation are a sort of voluntary discipline that guides the transformative journey. One sits before God each day not to ask for things one wants, or to seek a mystical experience, or to get anything in particular out of it at all. One sits before God in prayer each day because God is God, and prayer is my pause to ground myself in this Ground of Being, to remind myself of my purpose, to open myself to His Presence, to affirm my faithfulness in His Silence. In this way, prayer has nothing to do with mysticism. In my experience, mystical experiences happen to me. Prayer is a state of openness I choose to foster. Mysticism is something given to me. Prayer is something I give to God.

What I find is that the more I converge prayer and meditation with my life, the easier it becomes to have prayer be a state of being that has lasting power in my everyday life, highlighting the sacred in every moment. But because I am human and still struggle a lot with the distractions of life, good and bad, I have to come back to that discipline of daily sitting before God. The point is not really for me to tell God anything in particular or for God to hand a message over to me, though on occasion, either or both may occur. The point of prayer is to be steadfast in a commitment to keening my awareness and attention to God. If I am grounded in this, everything else I do is grounded in God. If I am not, then anything else I do loses much of its meaning.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti
The assertion you made about prayer being the highest vocation is also unrealistic.

You may think so ... but certainly St John of the Cross and St Teresa didn't think so ... and nor does, nor has, Christianity ever thought otherwise ...

1) Where do St John of the Cross or St Teresa say that prayer is "the highest vocation"?

2) Who do you consider representative of Christianity who has said that prayer is "the highest vocation"?

"The Way of the Pilgrim", "The Interior Castle", "The Cloud of Unknowing", "The Dark Night of the Soul" "The Ladder of Perfection", "The Journey of the Mind into God", to name but a few, are all regarded as classics beyond the boundaries of the Christian Tradition — you may think they're wrong, but you'd have a hard case convincing anyone else.

I'm not sure why you are citing these, Thomas Which of these include a statement to the effect that prayer is "the highest vocation"?

 

[Thomas]

1) Where do St John of the Cross or St Teresa say that prayer is "the highest vocation"?

The Interior Castle was written by St. Teresa of Avila in 1577. According to contemporary accounts, St. Teresa had a revelation from God of a crystal globe in the shape of a castle containing seven mansions. This is St. Teresa's interpretation of that vision, describing the journey of faith through seven stages, ending with union with God.

In her own words, the door of the Castle, or Mansion ... the entry into Divine Union, is prayer (Book 1, Chapter 1, intro). It starts there, and it ends there.

2) Who do you consider representative of Christianity who has said that prayer is "the highest vocation"?

Jesus Christ?

I'm not sure why you are citing these, Thomas Which of these include a statement to the effect that prayer is "the highest vocation"?

If you're going to be a literal fundamentalist, you'll never 'get' Christianity.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Brilliant post, Path, thank you.

Thomas

 

[Netti-Netti]

In her own words...the entry into Divine Union, is prayer (Book 1, Chapter 1, intro). It starts there, and it ends there.

First you cite St Theresa, who describes prayer as a means to an end. Then you seem to conclude that the means is the end. Very confusing.

Jesus Christ?

Where does Jesus say that prayer is "man's highest vocation"?

Jesus
If you're going to be a literal fundamentalist, you'll never 'get' Christianity.

I know you're not saying that flippant, unsubsantiated interpretations are the way to "get it"?

 

[soleil10]

First you cite St Theresa, who describes prayer as a means to an end. Then you seem to conclude that the means is the end. Very confusing.Where does Jesus say that prayer is "man's highest vocation"?

Prayer if of course important as part of someone spiritual journey. Some people are gifted in the prayer ministry and intercession.

Prayer is not the purpose of life itself. That is ludicrous!!!.

Before the human fall A&E communicated directly with God. After the fall, Jesus tells us that we should pray without stopping because in the fallen world we need to make great effort to break through the satanic environment and realm.
Once again, this does not means that prayer is the purpose why me or you were created.

 

[wil]

If the typical prayer is a beseeching or intercessory prayer and studies show they are...then to me we've misread prayer.

The child praying for a good grade, or that their parents don't ground them or whip them for getting caught for whatever they did...or the adult praying for health for themselves or someone else or for an improved relationship.... or for our team to win the game...or the boss not to catch our indescretion...

And you are saying it appears that the positive of your negative is true...

So

Prayer is the purpose of life itself. That is not ludicrous!!!..

Do I understand you correctly?

I believe love for our fellow man, assisting others is the purpose of life itself.

If one believes a G!d to be omnipotent and omnipresent, and hearing our every thought prior to us thinking about it... appears we are always praying.... and to be completely repetitious....

Our thoughts are prayers
and we are always praying
our thoughts are prayers
take charge of what your saying
seek a higher consciousness
a place of peacefulness
as every thought becomes a prayer.

so if that is true....

a. what are you praying

now...now...now...now

b. and that is the purpose of your life?