Moses's Escape from Egypt

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Avi

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Postermaster's comment in the Judaism forum about Jesus made me think about posting here about Moses and Egypt.

As I said in the other thread, I have asked several of my Egyptian friends about Moses and his escape from Egypt. Apparently this topic is absent in Egyptian students education.

So, I am wondering, why do you suppose this is the case ? Is there insufficient archeological and anthropological evidence to support this (ut oh, Poo may not be available to answer this !!). Did this event not happen, and it is just myth ? Or could the Egyptian psyche want to suppress this episode ? Or are there other reasons ? I do not know the answer to this question.

I look forward to hearing your ideas.
 
It'll be interesting to see what the Koran says, and your responses.

But other than Sunday school, here in the US I will say it wasn't any part of our world history classes that I can recall.

Is it taught in Israel public school as historical fact?

I do recall discussion elsewhere that it is not in Egyptian history (the exodus or the enslavement of so many jews) and conjecture that they wouldn't write about this 'military defeat' and then responses which indicate that they have in their history other such events.
 
wil said:
It'll be interesting to see what the Koran says, and your responses.
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Good point, the Koran was written at least 1,500 years after the Exodus, so it will be interesting to learn if is addressed.

But other than Sunday school, here in the US I will say it wasn't any part of our world history classes that I can recall.
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I do not recall that either.

Is it taught in Israel public school as historical fact?
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I do not know what is taught in Israel, but I studied at a Conservative Hebrew school in the US and we were taught about the Exodus as if it was a fact. I believe my children, learning in a reform environment are learning it the same way. I actually still believe that this event was factual and not mythical or metaphorical.

On the other hand, the revelation which took place at Sinai, during the same time, I believe was metaphorical (another story !!).

I do recall discussion elsewhere that it is not in Egyptian history (the exodus or the enslavement of so many jews)
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That is my understanding as well and is at the heart of my question.

and conjecture that they wouldn't write about this 'military defeat'
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Is it because Muslims do not believe it happened or do not want to discuss it ?

and then responses which indicate that they have in their history other such events.
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I am not aware of any other such events. Do you have any specifics here ?
 
Namaste Avi,

I haven't found the discussions yet, but the jist of it was. "Well Egyptians wouldn't write history that made them look bad (ie lost wars, slavery, an exodus....etc)" To which the response was along the lines of descriptions of many negative things in Egyptian history...but simply no mention of this. ie no mention of a man raised as Pharoahs son who goes off like this...
 

There is not much archeological evidence that Moses even existed.

So the Egyptians may well be entirely justified in ignoring what may be just a fabricated story, of a People needing a Foundation epic.

Even if true. Think about it...
A royal personage (a lord who directs public works in the north of Egypt) is on-the-outs with the central authorities. He helps some slaves escape, back into the desert. And this local lord goes with them as their leader, rather than sticking around Egypt to be executed.

Even true, this would be no more than just a minor episode (a footnote) in Egypt's long history. One minor rebellion amongst thousands of provincial rebellions in the 3000+ year history of the Egyptian empire of the Pharaohs.

& & &

Sigmund Freud postulated an interesting theory:

Moses was not a Jew, rescued in a basket floating down the Nile. (A common story in many ancient mythologies.) But Moses was, indeed, a blood member of the Ra-Moses family. Of royal blood. ('Ra' was equated to 'Aten' - the One God. A sign of religious devotion in one's name.) Thus this particular Ra-Moses was attracted to, and practitioner of, Akhenaten's henotheism, belief in One God (in 'Aten') above all others.

But the Conservatives (19th Dynasty) were back in power, now (as the 14th century-bce became the 13th), and (being Polytheistic) they were cleaning house.

The Jews were not 'slaves' but respected and skilled tenant workers living in the north of Egypt, who tithed a portion of their labor to Public Works. Just as all peoples were expected to do within the Empire. They had relative freedom under Akhenaten and his followers (18th Dynasty). But with a Conservative regime back in power, this relative autonomy of the Jewish community was threatened. Thus the Exodus.

No plagues, no nothing. Moses and his skilled workers all saw the writing on the wall. So they packed up, and got out of Dodge.

But once out in the desert, the people got deeply scared at their rootless situation and murdered bossy Moses. End of story.

Except:
The collective subconscious of the People felt great guilt over this murder. So that: slowly, out of this guilt, they re-wrote the history. Now Moses leads the people out of Egypt and to the Holy Land. Not an escape for political reasons (backward looking), but (forward looking) they were 'seeking a Promised Land.' And bits of stories, borrowed from this-tradition and that-tradition within the Middle East, built-up piece-by-piece the Foundation legend which exists in the Bible today.

& & &

Freud's theory is interesting. (And very Freudian!)

But there are other (and better) Moses theories. (Worth discussing, elsewhere, at some point in time. This being an Islamic thread, this seems hardly the place.)

But I do recall reading in the Qur'an, or other Islamic writings, that Moses is considered one of the great Prophets, like Abraham and Jesus, prior to the appearance of Mohammad - Mohammad being the last Prophet of the One God.

 
Hi Penelope, I always enjoy your posts because they are so creative and "out of the box".

As a Jew, my initial reaction is to disagree with your analysis, because it is so different from everything I have read and learned all my life. It sounds more like fiction or a creative writing exercise, than truth, but when I read your posts, I realize they are not ideas that you have made up in the last five minutes, they are ideas that you have been developing for sometime.

I am particularly interested in the ideas that you present which you attribute to Freud, because he was no amateur, and did a lot of excellent work. I have not read much Freud, but from what I have read, this idea sounds strange enough to really have been one of his ideas.

Now Penelope, I am pretty much a "meat and potatos" kind of guy. What I mean by that is I look for a rock solid foundation. One of the things I have noted about your writing is that you almost never give a reference. I think that is because your style is very extemporaneous and off the cuff. That is refreshing and sort of fun. But do you think it might be possible to give us a reference to your comments about Freud's work. A book title or paper reference will be fine. If you found it on-line, a link will be better.

Please do not take my comment as critical of your writing :). I have read enough to know that you are very sensitive and sometimes think you are being attacked. I am not doing that. I just want to know what the real foundation is.

Thanks.

Oh yes, and I have also learned that Moses is considered one of the prophets of Islam. Now this is a very interesting issue and I am glad that you brought it up. Because if Moses is considered a prophet of Islam, doesn't that lend some credence to the Exodus story ???

And one other question. How could you consider it a "minor rebellion" if 600,000 people left Egypt in the Exodus ? Do you believe it was less than that number ?
 
Avi said:
I am particularly interested in the ideas that you present which you attribute to Freud, because he was no amateur, and did a lot of excellent work.
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Actually, he was exactly that, an "amateur" in this field, that is why his views (on religion) are not taken seriously in religious studies departments in universities (the words of my former RLG proff, not mine).
 
Avi said:
And one other question. How could you consider it a "minor rebellion" if 600,000 people left Egypt in the Exodus ? Do you believe it was less than that number ?
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As I see it, Penelope often doesn't quote or site sources as she is rattling stuff off from memory of studies and reading past.

Anywho...600,000 imagine the logistics. Traveling for decades? Can you imagine the debris left behind? I've been at gatherings of 30,000 people for weeks at a time....the work to do this is incredible. I can't fathom 600,000 moving....think water...food...how many herds of goats and cattle?

My favorite part is after they crossed the red sea and then broke into song....imagine how many copy machines they had to have...ok first the women...
 
Avi said:
Postermaster's comment in the Judaism forum about Jesus made me think about posting here about Moses and Egypt.

As I said in the other thread, I have asked several of my Egyptian friends about Moses and his escape from Egypt. Apparently this topic is absent in Egyptian students education.

So, I am wondering, why do you suppose this is the case ? Is there insufficient archeological and anthropological evidence to support this (ut oh, Poo may not be available to answer this !!). Did this event not happen, and it is just myth ? Or could the Egyptian psyche want to suppress this episode ? Or are there other reasons ? I do not know the answer to this question.

I look forward to hearing your ideas.
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Peace, Avi,

Actually, the Quran says a lot about Moses pbuh. But, I think I didnt understand your OP very well. Do you want to know an Islamic point of view or an Egyptian point of view?! :confused:...lost
 
Hi DITB, either the Islamic or Egyptian perspective would be of interest. And how are they different ?

Thanks.
 
Hi Avi

Thanks for your kind comments.

Originally I read the essay in college in Freud's Totem and Taboo (1913), a thin volume, but I believe the essay in question was written much later and added to the book by the paperback publisher, to thicken it out. (I lent the book to a friend, and never saw it again.)

Freud did write a full-length book on the subject (which I have not read ... Unless the book was just that 50-page essay I encountered in the other volume):

Moses and Monotheism (1939)
(Der Mann Moses und die monotheistische Religion)

Here's the Wikipedia link.
Lots of other references online, if you google Freud and the title.

Penelope

 
Penelope said:
Originally I read the essay in college in Freud's Totem and Taboo (1913), a thin volume, but I believe the essay in question was written much later and added to the book by the paperback publisher, to thicken it out. (I lent the book to a friend, and never saw it again.)
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Penelope, thanks for the references. Totem is available on line in its entirety:

Totem and taboo: resemblances ... - Google Books

I haven't found a section on Moses.

Also, here is an Amazon review of Moses and Monotheism:

Amazon.com Review
"To deny a people the man whom it praises as the greatest of its sons is not a deed to be undertaken lightheartedly--especially by one belonging to that people," writes Sigmund Freud, as he prepares to pull the carpet out from under The Great Lawgiver in Moses and Monotheism. In this, his last book, Freud argues that Moses was an Egyptian nobleman and that the Jewish religion was in fact an Egyptian import to Palestine. Freud also writes that Moses was murdered in the wilderness, in a reenactment of the primal crime against the father. Lingering guilt for this crime, Freud says, is the reason Christians understand Jesus' death as sacrificial. "The 'redeemer' could be none other than the one chief culprit, the leader of the brother-band who had overpowered the father." Hence the basic difference between Judaism and Christianity: "Judaism had been a religion of the father, Christianity became a religion of the son." Freud's arguments are extremely imaginative, and his distinction between reality and fantasy, as always, is very loose. If only as a study of wrong-headedness, however, it's fascinating reading for those who want to explore the psychological impulses governing the historical relationship between Christians and Jews. --Michael Joseph Gross
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It looks almost like it was written as a novel.

Anyway, I don't think you meant this story to be taken literally, so thanks for providing some imaginative supplementary materials. It looks like this book would be fun to read !!!
 
Freud was also considered the father of the field of psychoanalysis which puts him in the same league as Einstein.

But I agree with Code that he is not recognized for contributions to religion.
 
Well, build on a crooked cornerstone....what do you get?
I don't have much praise for Freud.
Regardless of what the quacks in the field of psychoanalysis have to say about him, it is rather like these art connoisseurs and experts who keep saying that the work of crazy people is brilliant and genius, but what is really going on is insuring that a money making niche is kept working (among other things).
'Nuf said about him, I think that Moses is a key character in our collective mind, but what we know about him may not be literally true.
I am interested to hear what others have to say on the subject.

But you know, even if the story is a complete allegory (loosely based on factual events and people), that doesn't change the fact that Judaism has enriched our human experience and the story is still being written. There is a great depth to things that seem ordinary.
 
To Freud, there are two Judaisms:

1. The religion of Moses. This religion is derived from the highly sophisticated Egyptian religion in its most advanced form: the One God of Akhenaten. This religion is ethical, all sorcery and "magic" is removed from the ritual priestly practice. God is universal, not local. Law is established, not as an implement of political power, but as a covenant between God and God's faithful people. This is the Law of the Levites, as expounded in Leviticus, a faith which was revived during the Babylonian exile. The Egyptian practice of circumcision (there are ancient Egyptian pictures of this practice of circumcision) is adopted by the Jews - as a covenant between father and son ("I will ritually castrate you so that I will not factually castrate you") - as a kind of childhood baptism in the Law. Initiation into the Faith.

2. The Israelite tribal religion. This is the religion of Jahve (Yahweh), a peevish, fickle, bloodthirsty moon god (or volcano god) which the Jews adopted from a Canaanite tribe. This god was the enforcer of a lot of petty and arbitrary - tribally-based - rules and rituals. Rules that were local, not universal, not ethical in nature.

Toward the end of their long stay in northern Egypt, the Israelites had adopted the new religion of their overlord, Moses, worshipping Aten. But once out in the desert, and afraid, they murder Moses, and drop Aten. They revert to a worship of the desert god, Jahve. But during the Babylonian exile, the suppressed communal guilt of the Jews revives Moses in their consciousness ("return of the repressed") and the scribes start to rewrite the past. Only here, from Babylon on, does the ethical rabbinic religion of Moses, again become central to the practice of Judaism.

... Freud's theory of Judaism, short version.
(Lacking all of Freud's convoluted psychoanalytic speculation upon the subconscious mechanisms/reasons for all this, lacking Freud's theories about the totems and taboos of tribal societies, etc.)

Take it or leave it, but this is a pretty substantial theory (even if Freud is working at the fringes of his expertise).
And even if anthropologists can disprove his speculations upon the psychology of primitive and archaic peoples, Freud's theory might be valid, nonetheless, in its outline ...
Even if the social engine which produced Judaism - Freud's version - needs some serious tinkering (which it probably does) in order to be anthropologically credible.

 
Avi said:
Freud was also considered the father of the field of psychoanalysis which puts him in the same league as Einstein.
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ironic... since both men's theories have been superseded. ;)
 
I said:
For more information on Moses from an historical perspective, David Rohl's "A Test of Time" makes for very stimulating reading:
Amazon.com: Pharaohs And Kings: A Biblical Quest (9780517703151): David Rohl: Books
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Brian, this book looks very interesting. It seems that by shifting the biblical dating back 200 years, much of the archeological evidence fits. Here is an excerpt from an Amazon review:


To say the very least, this book is an enlightening read. The author attempts to design a new chronology of Egypt based on a number of archaeological observations he made which pointed to certain anomolies in the standard chronology of the Third Intermediate Period of Egyptian history. The TIP is one of those points in history where information is scanty and there is much room for error in interpreting existing archaeological evidence. Rohl posits that the 21st and 22nd pharaonic dynasties were at least partly contemprary in a period of balkanization of Egypt, contrary to the conventional chronology's view that they were successive. He therefore shifts the entire preceding dynastic histories downward from 200 to 300 years. That is, what we previously though to occur at 1250 BC actually happened at 1000 BC according to Rohl. In so doing Rohl has done much to synchronize Egyptian chronology with the chronology of the bible.

Amazon.com: Pharaohs and Kings (9780609801307): David Rohl: Books
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Here are some verses from the Quran describing this event

Surah 26
52. And We inspired Moses, saying: "Take away My servants by night, verily, you will be pursued."
53. Then Pharaoh sent callers to (all) the cities.
54. (Saying): "Verily! These (Israelites) indeed are but a small band.
55. "And verily, they have done what has enraged us;
56. "But we are host all assembled, amply fore-warned."
57. So, We expelled them from gardens and springs,
58. Treasures, and every kind of honourable place.
59. Thus [We turned them (Pharaoh's people) out] and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit them.
60. So they pursued them at sunrise.
61. And when the two hosts saw each other, the companions of Moses said: "We are sure to be overtaken."
62. [Moses] said: "Nay, verily! With me is my Lord, He will guide me."
63. Then We inspired Moses (saying): "Strike the sea with your stick." And it parted, and each separate part (of that sea water) became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.
64. Then We brought near the others [Pharaoh's party] to that place.
65. And We saved Moses and all those with him.
66. Then We drowned the others.



Surah 44
30.And indeed We saved the Children of Israel from the humiliating torment,
31. From Pharaoh; Verily! He was arrogant and was of the Musrifûn (those who transgress beyond bound in spending and other things and commit great sins).
32. [FONT=Verdana,Arial]and indeed, We chose them knowingly above all other people[/FONT]
 
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