Biblical Marriage and Divorce

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Gatekeeper, Dec 20, 2009.

  1. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Pocket full of sunshine aren't you

    GK, The bible records in the beginning of Genesis 1:28 what God's ideal for marriage and families is. After the fall of our first ancestors, the blue print of God's plan for marriage did not change but us, the people were broken/fallen if you will. So God has worked without rest to bring us back to our original point and create His lineage on earth completely separated from the original sin. The Messiah is the one that can start such a lineage.

    So the words "Biblical marriage" can mean different things depending if it is before the fall or after the fall. The words "Biblical divorce" are even more confusing since there is no concept of divorce in God who is One in perfect harmony.

    In the Bible, God uses families to bring about his providential restoration. Adam's family, Abraham's family, Noah's family, Jacob family etc... all the way to Jesus' family. Ideal families are the fundamental units in God's kingdom on earth or in heaven. Nations are made of families.

    The harmonious union between a husband and his wife centered on God creates a powerful trinity. It is an incredible power and a foundation of peace for a family. God wants to live with such a family

    Biblical marriage in my opinion should mean the ideal God had in mind in Genesis before the fall.
     
  2. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    Re: Pocket full of sunshine aren't you

    I wonder why you would insert the term biblical in front or marriage. It seems to me that across the various cultures and religions in this world, marriage means a life-long commitment to a mate and the commingling of family and property.

    What difference is there between a biblical marriage and any other marriage beyond the idea that you are committing yourself before this God vs. that God?

    This is one reason that I'm atheistic. I don't care what God you make this commitment to, or what holy book is used to consecrate the ceremony. I only care about the quality of that commitment once the marriage vows have been taken. I think there's plenty of evidence to show that there's nothing special or unique about biblical marriage, Hindu marriage, Islamic marriage, Buddhist marriage or civil marriage.

    Please demonstrate otherwise.
     
  3. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    Re: Pocket full of sunshine aren't you

    I looked for stats on divorce demographics.

    Here are some results form the Barna Group Barna Research Group. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce in December, 1999. They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points.

    One of the findings from that survey...

    Percent divorced by religion:

    Jews 30%

    Born-again Christians 27%

    Other Christians 24%

    Atheists, Agnostics 21%


    Or this story from November, 1999...

    Bible Belt Leads U.S. In Divorces

    Aside from the quickie-divorce Mecca of Nevada, no region of the United States has a higher divorce rate than the Bible Belt. Nearly half of all marriages break up, but the divorce rates in these southern states are roughly 50 percent above the national average.

    According to federal figures:
    • Nationally, there were about 4.2 divorces for every thousand people in 1998.

    • The rate was 8.5 per thousand in Nevada, 6.4 in Tennessee, 6.1 in Arkansas, 6.0 in Alabama and Oklahoma.

    • Of southeastern states, only South Carolina's rate of 3.8 was below the national average.

    • By contrast, the divorce rate is less than 3.0 in Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York.​



    So please, enlighten me. What's so special about those biblical marriages again?
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Re: Pocket full of sunshine aren't you

    Namaste CZ,

    I think you atheists stay together for the D!g.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    But beyond that it would be interesting to look at all the factors and see what comes up...

    Like Nevada...it is in the top ten for Atheists but nobody would attribute their high divorce statistic to that when it is really because of their loose divorce laws.

    And then we have race, where while the statistics indicate that more people of one or the other divorce more, the stats are warped cause some ethnicities are also less likely to worry about formalities that would get them counted.

    And then you got the high stats on Jews divorces, yet NY is the state with lower divorce rates and the highest percentage of Jews...guess they'd be waaaayy down if they didn't have that issue...
     
  6. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    Interesting article (bolding mine)...

    Atheism & Divorce: Divorce Rates for Atheists are Among the Lowest in America
    Why Do Conservative Christian Defenders of Marriage Get Divorced More Often?

    Conservative Christians of all types, evangelical as well as Catholic, tend to link their conservative brand of their religion with proper moral behavior. By far the most popular context is marriage: they claim that a good, solid marriage is only possible when people acknowledge conservative Christianity's claims about the nature of marriage and gender roles. So why is it that Christian marriages, and especially conservative Christian marriages, end in divorce more often than atheist marriages?

    The Barna Research Group, an evangelical Christian organization that does surveys and research to better understand what Christians believe and how they behave, studied divorce rates in America in 1999 and found surprising evidence that divorce is far lower among atheists than among conservative Christians — exactly the opposite of what they were probably expecting.

    11% of all American adults are divorced
    25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce

    27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce
    24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced

    21% of atheists have been divorced
    21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
    24% of Mormons have been divorced
    25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
    29% of Baptists have been divorced
    24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced

    27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced
    26% of people in the West have been divorced
    19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced

    The highest divorce rates are in the Bible Belt: "Tennessee, Arkansas, Alabama and Oklahoma round out the Top Five in frequency of divorce...the divorce rates in these conservative states are roughly 50 percent above the national average" of 4.2/1000 people. Nine states in the Northeast (Connecticut, Maine, New Hampshire, New York, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Rhode Island, New Jersey, and Maryland) have the lowest divorce rates, averaging just 3.5/1000 people.

    Barna isn't the only group to arrive at these numbers. Other researchers have also found that conservative Protestants get divorced more often than other groups, even more often than "mainline" Protestants. The fact that atheists and agnostics divorce less often than other religious groups was, however, surprising to many. Some have simply refused to believe it.

    Credit should be given to George Barna, himself a conservative evangelical Christian, for at least trying to face up to these results and what they might mean: "We would love to be able to report that Christians are living very distinct lives and impacting the community, but...in the area of divorce rates they continue to be the same." According to Barna, his data raises "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families" and challenge "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage."

    Born again adults who have been married are just as likely as non-born-again adults who have been married to eventually become divorced. Because the vast majority of born again marriages occurred after the partners had accepted Christ as their savior, it appears that their connection to Christ makes less difference in the durability of people’s marriages than many people might expect. Faith has had a limited affect on people’s behavior, whether related to moral convictions and practices, relational activities, lifestyle choices or economic practices.

    Barna should, however, acknowledge that the divorce rates for conservative Christians are higher than for liberal Christians. He also doesn't take the further step of acknowledging that perhaps conservative Christianity and conservative religion in general are unable to provide a sound basis for marriage — that perhaps there are other, more secular foundations for marriage that conservative Christians are missing. What might they be? Well, an obvious possibility is treating women like fully autonomous equals in the relationship, something which conservative Christianity frequently denies.

    The difference in divorce rates is particularly interesting given the fact that the Christians getting divorced in the highest numbers are among the same Christians who are most likely to raise an alarm about the state of marriage in society. They also tend to be the same Christians who want to deny gays the right to marry on the assumption that gay marriage is a "threat" to the institution of marriage. If marriage is in any danger in America, perhaps the threat comes from the unstable marriages of conservative Christians, not the relationships of gays or the marriages of godless atheists.
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Some other factors I would think that influence the above.

    If you are agnostic or atheist what is your 'reason' to get married? I'm just wondering if the average number of years of cohabitating (known as living in sin in those other circles) is higher...hence when you decide to get married the test period of compatability has been well broached and you are getting married for the commitment to each other...not because you 'have' to.
     
  8. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    39
    I'm just speaking my mind is all


    Citizenzen, is it not obvious that my views of a 'biblical' marriage differ even from those who are in the Christian faith? A covenant relationship is not a biblical marriage, nor does a piece of paper legitimize a marriage. We can have life partners who we dearly love, sign a piece of paper, and say a few vows, but that doesn't make our relationship a biblical marriage. A biblical marriage according to my understanding, is simply when two people literally have a child. It's the literal merging, and the union of two people.

    What makes it better? I wouldn't call it better, the creation of another human being is pretty darned miraculous if you ask me, though. In a conventional marriage a person is deemed married by another. Legally you are married according to the laws of our government, but it takes a child before one can truly be considered married in a biblical sense. It doesn't much matter being that you're an atheist. Go with the governments definition of marriage, and I'll go with how I view scripture to define marriage.

    The point is that a person doesn't need a piece of paper or government to tell them they are married; the paper might be useful for taxes, and insurance, and the like but it really is just a piece of paper. I'd very much like to know when conventional marriage actually began, and why? Are we so dependent on our governments that we feel the need to legitimize [love] through its channels? Please! Give me a fakin break. They may have my hands tied in many areas, but I'll be darned if I ever again try to legitimize the [love] I have for a woman through big brother, brutha.


    GK
     
  9. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    Re: I'm just speaking my mind is all

    I guess I just don't get what the issue is. I call it "married with children," you call it a "biblical marriage". And you say it is no better than marriage without children, something that I'll certainly agree to. So what was the point again?

    Dude, you know the answer to this. It's because property and wealth become entangled in this issue. How that property is passed down through inheritance, or divided in divorce is handled according to laws and the courts which are a function of our government.

    You said the magic word when you said "legitimize" (legitiment: accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements). You can love anybody you want and you don't have to legitimize that relationship. But when one marries it's not only about sharing love, it also it a deliberate act of sharing each others wealth.

    When you divorced the fact that your relationship was legitimized helped to protect you and your wife's rights to your property and your son. I know the Teabagger mentality is in fashion right now, but laws and government do serve a purpose, and I think you too easily forget when it has served you.
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    I miss that peaceful buddhist CZ, don't know what happenned to him. Somehow GK starts a thread discussing his belief in the Christian forum and CZ enters and stomps all over....Not like the old CZ we knew and loved....who is this guy?
     
  11. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    0
    the old? thought he was always this compassionate!
     
  12. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    39
    Sorry Ya'll

    Paper, priest, justice of the peace, ect. are certainly not necessary. Unless divorce as we know it is given considerable consideration before one even makes the ever so important vows common in today's marriages.

    Inheritance has very little to do with conventional marriage, as property can be willed to anyone. It revolves around the concept of divorce, and is watered down to simple materialism in the end.

    Wealth can be shared without governmental legitimization, or the paper. What conventional marriage really comes down to is dividing the spoils in matters of divorce.

    Which is another reason why conventional marriage is a shadow of what it means to be married in biblical terms. Today's marriage and divorce is less about the vows and legitimacy, and more the spoils when two people grow tired of each other. And yes, laws and government serve a very real and needed purpose, but our governments have no business in matters of love and marriage, but they sure do come in handy in the dividing of our sacred property. On the same note, our governments have no business in matters of faith, and I can virtually guarantee that you agree with that one. ;)

    Btw, I would appreciate it if you would cease with your judgmental assumptions about me. Seriously, CZ ... It's getting tiresome. Lets briefly identify some of the judgmental assumptions made about me, k?

    #1 "I Failed at marriage"

    #2 "I feel Guilt because of that failure"

    #3 "I Rationalize to make myself feel better"

    #4 "And to help me sleep at night"

    #5 "I Too easily forget how my government has served me"

    You have yet to show me even a shred of respect, CZ. (Maybe I'm unworthy of such to you?) The apology in your previous post was condescending at best, if not insulting. Listen, I have reasons for my views and they are rarely formed in haste, or out of emotion, or out of a lack of appreciation for those I am in debt to. I am a analytical man, Citizenzen .... Not a rebellious, selfish, self serving child.

    I form my views from a sincere desire to understand life, God, and issues of faith. I attempt to learn from others, from life itself, and from my God who I call Father. I'm not always right in my viewpoints, but do try to learn when I am in error. I damn sure don't disrespect others because I disagree with their religious views, either.

    I try not to judge, be overly critical, or condemn even when my buttons are pushed excessively. I prefer to give my peers the benefit of the doubt, even when I am the focus of unwarranted negativity. I'll take a brushing and I will let it go, but when the brushing persists without cause, I become a little less forgiving, which by now should be somewhat evident.

    So, for the sake of salvaging any respect I may have had for you previously, how about you cease from the arrogant, disrespectful, and condescending attitude you've thus far spoken to me with. In other words: Extend me a little ****ing courtesy, will ya? Seriously, CZ ... Or is it too late for that? :rolleyes:

    GK

    (My apologies to others who happen to be reading this thread).
     
  13. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    1
    Re: Sorry Ya'll

    GK, a forum is a testing ground for ideas and beliefs. When even the most abstract ideas are debated it's easy to feel disrespected or disregarded. When the issue is as deeply personal as yours is, it is even more so.

    I will not change either my style nor my desire to look penetratingly into these thoughts and concepts in order to soothe you.

    But I have had my say here. I will happily remove myself from this thread so that you may continue having a discussion more to your liking.
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    nah, he was off the wall, pointed, picayune, but for some reason he's taking more threads personal... I think he's tryin to fill in for tao...
     
  15. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    0
    picayune? sounds like amexican pepper..mm the sign is either pretty vacant or fully occupied hohoho, a taoist or zen joke:D
     
  16. Dream

    Dream New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,677
    Likes Received:
    1
    Unless you recognize divorce your marriage isn't Biblical. Its like pretending that everyone is perfect. The result is a schizophrenic approach to marriage and married people. Obviously marriage is a good thing, but people make mistakes. Often, Jesus is paraphrased to make divorce an impossible or even blasphemous decision; but its easy to find out that God in scripture anticipates the necessity of divorce. Jesus explains, expounds, exhorts using this scripture. Divorce is necessary, because sometimes we are too mean to be good spouses. In that case redemption can only come through divorce. Don't pretend its some special case that doesn't happen to good people, because it happens with time and chance.
     
  17. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    39
    My idea of a biblical divorce differs from today's concept of divorce, Dream. My idea is more akin to when two couples have entered into a sacred union by having children, and ties are cut (Completely) forcefully removing the child from one (Or more) of his/her parents entirely.

    No visitations, no verbal or written communication, no influence whatsoever .... In others words the act of not only separating from a spouse but also separating from the child. It happens when love is not involved and often by means of one night stands, where momma is forced to raise baby herself.

    When Jesus spoke of divorce, He was alluding to the importance of parental responsibility and honoring the marriage itself, which is what I view to be the literal union of two where they become one flesh (A Child).

    Divorce is about the children, not two couples who find that they are lousy together. I believe God wants us to be happy, so monogamy isn't exactly expected considering we often come to where we are no longer being "helpers" to our partners, but a burden. Look at Solomon, Abraham, David, etc. all had more than one wife (Woman).

    Moses allowed for divorce because the hearts of men were hard. Perhaps much like today, when babies daddy don't wanna be, and momma is often forced to bear the responsibility of raising a child herself, which often leads to baby losing both parents. Sometimes momma simply can't do it herself and is forced to either give up her child, or find another man to help support her.

    [youtube]JiFXuj5I5Do[/youtube]
     
  18. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    39
    Better than expected

    That went better than expected ... Still more assumptions, tho :rolleyes: You're a judgmental one aren't you. I suppose you know my heart, eh? Yeah, obviously you have no idea what I'm even speaking of.
     
  19. greymare

    greymare New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gee, I dont understand where all this negativity came from, CZ.
    GK was explaining something, and it seemed to me that you took it as an attack on yourself.....(or I could be wrong.) (Its a habit i have, forgive me.)

    If it works for GK and his "ex" and child, well, theres nothing wrong with that.
    What works for you, CZ , works for you ... and thats good.

    (as a personal note, I dont get offended when someone tells me how great america is... they arent saying that australia isnt great, they are just stating that america is great). (does that make sense?)

    Love the Grey
     
  20. greymare

    greymare New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    As I have neither been married or divorced, I think I shall leave this thread to those that are more experienced than me. LOL.
    I should have remembered that old saying....
    Better to be thought a fool and kept my mouth shut, than open it and prove them right...
    (or something like that!) LOL
     

Share This Page