Do you have a soul?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by wil, Jan 4, 2010.

?

Just a question.

  1. Are you a body with a soul?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Are you a soul with a body?

    13 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Or something else entirely?

    18 vote(s)
    58.1%
  1. Victor

    Victor Silver Haired Member

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    I will tell you a story. Once there was an infant born who was terribly ill. The Angels came to take his soul but The Lord said, "No! Let him be. I know his name and he is Mine. I will have use for him later." That's when it all started. Mastoids require surgery, this lad had them in both ears. His mother, however, placed him in a lab test with forty-nine other children. The liquid worked on only one... the child of our story. At nine it was discovered that he was a child prodigy in music. With no lessons and never having seen a note of music in his life, he played with a well-known symphony orchestra for three years sitting second-seat solo chair in the French Horn section. At the age of eleven the visions began. His parents punished him for scribbling in his reference book, two eliptical orbits with two electrons and four positrons. He scribbled them everywhere. Five years later, at the age of sixteen, he was wearing that symbol on his arm as an Electronics Technician in the U.S. Navy. While retiring after a mid-watch one morning, he climbed into his 'rack' (bed) and saw a cat jump across his chest. In a half-wakened state he peered over the edge of his bed and found himself looking onto a darkened ocean beach. In the vision that followed, he saw three faces, three men murdered whose names he did not know but whose faces were burned into his memory. He knew them when they met their deaths years later; President John F Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, and Rev Martin Luther King Jr. His vision occured in 1954. Later he had many visions, all of which came true in their time. None of them failed to become reality... ever. A simple example was one he had of a young woman walking down a long beach, holding the hand of a young child. The beach was lined with dozens of naval vessels of all types. Five years later he married her, and their son entered the Navy where he served with honor for twenty-eight years. Only twice was he so terrified by the evil of his visions that they ended in seizures from which he recovered after long minutes. This same person has had waking visions. He has stood in the presence of God Almighty, asked to serve him though he was deeply religious and churched already. He said yes, and saw the walls of the church closed behind him. For twenty-six years he studied alone, guided by God's Holy Spirit. He almost lost his wife and children back then, but has come away with a knowledge and love of God that few can compare with. His stature in the Spiritual realm is constantly increased by the presence of God's Spirit, and the shadows of Angels are always around him. He has seen God's Garden and been saved from absolutely certain death so often that he suffers from 'survivor's guilt'. Twice, head-on collisions have turned into empty roads with no accidents, and no other cars in sight as the physical world was changed to save his life. When he totalled his motorcycle and thrown into the air, arms held him up, carried him across a two lane road, and laid him gently onto a grass lawn. In 2008 he began to have a repetitive dream of water rising into the hills, flooding everything, chasing him through mountain roads, houses, woods, to escape the coming flood. The condition of this planet is obvious; it is irreversible, it will come to pass VERY shortly. And this Christmas Eve he prayed and had a vision that lasted four days, waking and sleeping. Four words awakened him to the future of our world, a future no more than thirty-five to fourty years away. The Holy Spirit looked at him with sadness, almost sorrow, and she said; "There's a terrible storm coming!"

    I am that child and my mortality is so limited that it is time to tell you this story. Take the warning for what you will. What you read here only touches the surface of my life, one of constantly turbulent waters.....
     
  2. The Undecided

    The Undecided New Member

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    I think we do agree. However I think that we are only differentiated because we decide that we are, this is another boundary that we have created. In effect there is only interconnectedness, the labels of me and you are inventions for practical purposes, to allow us to understand the world and universe around us. I suppose to understand this, and to remove all boundaries, is what is referred to as enlightenment or nirvana. So there is only one soul, one consciousness, that we all have access to.:)
     
  3. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Nice to see you back here, Victor. :)

    Any idea how high the water is rising? I presume you're talking about a sudden deluge as opposed to Global Warming?
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Namaste Undecided,

    You seem quite decieded today. Yes in my understanding of Christianity it is when you completely put on the mind of Christ as requested by Paul, when dualism leaves your understanding and one realizes not only are I and the Father one, but we are all one...each of us on our path to reach that understanding.

    So now we are differentiated...becuase I cannot change your perception, or that of the rock, or the ocean, I can only change my own.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Namaste Victor,

    Quite the story. Your vision relates quite closely to the worst scenarios of the glaciers, greenland and the antarctic melting.

    http://vrstudio.buffalo.edu/~depape/warming/World100-8190.jpg

    But that would be fodder for another thread.

    As in this discussion this affects our earth and oujr bodies, can you tie this into whether you believe we have a soul and how the turbulent waters affect our soul?
     
  6. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Wil, I thought best to remove the image and post a link to it instead - it's just too huge for a post!
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    thanx I was gonna ask someone to tell me how to shrink it and forgot...

    the pic, not my soul...
     
  8. Jenn

    Jenn New Member

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    Yes, I hear what you're saying, but would probably explain it a bit differently. Take the image of water. The universe is a great big ocean. We are just the ripples and waves rising out of that ocean. We are still water, we are still part of the universe--but we are a unique one-pointed manifestation of the pervasive whole. So we are still distinct and singular. Because we are a single ripple, we see all the other ripples on the surface ... but we can only see the surface, not the full depth from which we emerge.

    Personally, I struggle with interpreting "soul/spirit" in such literalistic ways as most people seem to view the soul/spirit. But then, I also don't personify God into a single human-like being. To me, "God" and "Soul" are like two lovers becoming One. There is no real distinction, just two halves becoming whole. I *like* to think that the whole cosmos was created out of love and that we are in essence, "God"/the universe longing for itself and expressing that longing through us and all around us.

    At the same time, I think people have to reach a point when they stop trying to approach the non-rational with the rational. I'm not saying give up on reasoning and your thinking, perceiving, piercing mind, but eventually you have to accept that these can only take you so far. There comes a time and place where thoughts become inadequate--they become part of the illusion itself, like the mind refracting in on itself thousands and thousands of times. That's when you have to transcend thought, approach the experience of being alive trans-rationally.

    Thus, I return to the practice of meditation.
     
  9. Jarrett

    Jarrett New Member

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    Some people like to sound smart or be read as smart. OOOOOHHHHH your so smart with your big words put together in such a nice way. But at the risk of sounding to simple, we are indeed a body with a soul. But wait is that all? How did i get this body? How did it become bound with this soul? That is easy by birth and evolution, they are created. Our own soul or intellect adapts and evolves along with our body until with maturity we become totaly human which in comparison to some animals would be called totaly animal. But as i asked before is that all? Well now along with this body and soul some, and yes i said some, have a spirit that is niether by or from body and soul, but can be the new beginning of one. Through life we bind our soul to the flesh, which is temporal, or the spirit which is pre existant and eternal. It is as if we are a type of trinity. But only temporal. If we have this spirit then this is the thing that elevates our intellect. It prepares our flesh. It quikens our soul. If you believe that this spirit is non existant, your probably right in regards to yourself and none of this would make since. But if you do have this spirit it is the reason you question all, it is the reason you seek, it is the reason you perhaps do not feel at home in the flesh. If you feel this way good this place is not your home and you will return to the place from which the spirit comes were there is no error or deficit. This place is the all from which all proceeds and to which all returns. The place of the perfect power which is not called love but which is love.

    Thus, I return to love.
     
  10. Victor

    Victor Silver Haired Member

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    Hi all, Brian: I am making reference to Global Warming, a permanent condition that is accelerating; ex: The highest glacier in the world was expected to be effected by 2015. The latest Geophysical reports indicate that it will be totally gone by the end of THIS summer! Twenty percent of the North Polar ice is already gone and losing ground at the rate of 10% per year. The reports we have world wide indicate that global warming is not only being effected by our mishandling of the planet but also the widening variation of our magnetic field and increased solar radiation. One geologist has noted within the last two months that the effects of Gobal Warming are not only permanent but irreversible. My repeated vision indicates to me, like all the rest, that what is to come is long range, a condition that will change the shape and style of earth's social order, and its effects will be deaply felt within the next 30-35 years. The waking vision I had Christmas Eve only adds to my alarm and sincere conviction that we are seeing the beginnings of an end of the age as we have known it. Here in Georgia we are aware that in prehistoric eras the Atlantic Ocean extended as far inland as Macon, Georgia... about 90 miles from Atlanta.B]
     
  11. Victor

    Victor Silver Haired Member

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    Wil:
    If we do not have a soul I would be the most surprised creature on the face of the earth. With all I have experienced in my life I am quite satisfied that much that I have experienced has been spiritual rather than physical. Let me give you an example other than my visions. I was driving home with my date late one evening on a two lane road. On either side of the road there were still ten to fifteen high dirt banks from the building of the road. I was doing about 50 MPH when I drove up behind a slower vehicle. Without looking, I pulled into the other lane to pass him. My date screamed and I looked up to see another car directly in front of me, not twenty feet in front of me. A head-on collision was inevitable, no possible physical way to avoid it. I guess we were headed at each other at around 100 MPH! I recall looking at the car I was passing and the horrified look on the driver's face. In the instant when there should have been a collision, everything physical vanished. One moment of nothing, and then I was driving up the proper side of the road, 30 mph or less and there were no other cars around us. My date was curled up on the floorboard screaming, "We're dead, we're dead!" I stopped the car and we walked and drove that length of road for over an hour! There was nothing, nothing had gone over those immense banks of dirt, no skid marks, NOTHING but us alone in the middle of that road at two in the morning! And this wasn't the only time this has happened to me, it has happened at least three other times. Nothing physical can move time and space, not to save a physical presence, and yet I have been saved by a power far beyond anything we might consider 'reasonable'. Yes, we have a soul, an eternal soul that is worth the saving of one pitiful life.B]
     
  12. Jarrett

    Jarrett New Member

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  13. Jarrett

    Jarrett New Member

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    this is the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth ( outer darkness ) whenever we dont make it we are cast out into outer darkness, maybe over and over again, until we get it right. So one existance ends and then seemlessly another begins. I would say you did die, I would say it is very possible we have all died or will at least one time. This go around is ending probably right where it began, IN THE BEGINNING. this isnt religious or mystical, it hsa just been hidden. You my friend have been blessed or lightly burdened with a good memory. Maybe next time you die, if this is all real, you wont come back. What would bother me is coming back not leaving.
     
  14. Jarrett

    Jarrett New Member

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    alot of us seem to be in the 2030 to 2040 range the reason why is because, well, we know. Woe to the coast lands
    as it is written. Maybe this has all happened over and over and over and over and........... and every time people get all crazy and selfish, they fight, kill, seek, steal, worry, and die seeking to save there life on this earth, but that is only a recipe for losing your life that is to come. By caring so much for this world and our life in it, we attach ourselves to our bodies which is temporal, instead of to the spirit which is eternal, and therefore our soul goes the way of the flesh. This is a trick of the highest design. (The Matrix) So look, you can get all booty tight and seek to save your life or you can be lose as a goose and love with the best love, that love that is loved by the one who loves with the perfect love that love is. I love you and i hope you will use your gift to free people from the woes instead of getting them all scared like a bunch of preachers would. Forgive the world and heal the sick, feed the hungry, succor those who need succor, sacrifice yourself for your chosen people, be a savior for your generation, make this world and its powers prepare an end for you. Be a radical for the rest of your time. Dont drink the kool-aid. Stand up to this world and its powers and tell it you see its end and you have begun. Maybe you will understand this riddle " death to the WWF."
     
  15. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste wil,

    thank you for the post.

    i voted "c".

    from my point of view (bear with me) such a question is fundamentally flawed with its' axioms, in particular the idea that there is a "You" which exists in any substantial manner which could have a soul or not have a soul.

    to answer your question as posed, however, i would say "no", beings do not have souls.

    of course without knowing what you mean by the term "soul" i can't say if beings have what you mean.. they don't have what i mean by the term "soul" ;)

    i won't repeat myself expect to say that i'll answer the rest of the questions with the same caveats :)

    human beings consist of physical form amongst other things, which is self evident.

    no.

    generally speaking the "you" of most beings mental formation is a combination of factors; physical, emotional, cognitive and psychological to lesser or greater degrees which are combined through the crucible of the Ego into a psycho-physical sense of self which contains the tanha (craving) for continued existence.

    something else entirely but not unknown... that idea.. the concept of self, of "I", of ME and YOU, subject/object... indeed the very manner in which something can be known (compare and contrast...subject/object) exists within a framework that cannot support it... examination of these ideas shows them to be flawed, faulty, without support and untenable. reality, of which humans are part, arises spontaneously and simultaneously throughout the multiverse in an interconnected but unperceived organic whole... every moment is the only moment of arising and the next moment of arising is conditioned by the current one and thus a beings karma (intentional actions, thoughts, words) can alter their vipaka (consequence of intentional actions, thoughts, words).

    metta,

    ~v
     
  16. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    In my earlier post, I said my intuition tells me I have a soul. I did not elaborate as to why, and, since nobody else has spent time talking about dreams here, I think I'll talk about it in this post because I think it is very important in regards to the idea of a soul.

    My idea of the soul is that it's the "I" perceiving in dreams. It sees, hears, runs, and feels. Now imagine an ancient person of an bygone religion experiencing the dream. Surely one can conclude that the perceiver in the dream should be called something. My speculation is that it eventually is called a soul as people try to articulate the perceiver in the dream.

    Now we know what my idea of the soul is. Currently, I checked out the New Science of Dreaming from my college's library and, hopefully, I'll be able to further develop or further disregard my idea.
     
  17. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    I posted this website on the 'defining religion' thread :

    'Take Tylor's theory of Animism, which we have already mentioned, but only briefly; to explain why people believe in spiritual beings Tylor performed what we might call a thought experiment. He asked his readers to imagine an evolutionarily early human being waking from a dream. Unlike modern people, who have a fairly complex understanding of the difference between being awake and asleep, this "savage philosopher," as Tylor termed him, was not aware of just what a dream was. However, much like us, he was profoundly interested in accounting for anomalies in his environment--it's just that he did not have the stock of scientific methods available as do you and I. Nonetheless, using rudimentary methods, Tylor concludes that the early human must have arrived at an explanation to account for the odd thing of "seeing" himself elsewhere or why he was able to "see" long dead ancestors (all of which was during his dream). Concluding that there must be something that outlives the body, that can depart and return to the body--call it a soul, if you will--struck Tylor as a pretty sensible way for such an early human being to account for such an odd experience'
     
  18. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    There was a guy named Wilhelm Wundt who established the world's first psychological laboratory in Leipzig, Germany in 1879.
    It was his contention that psychology belonged in a biological laboratory and not in the philosophy department.
    According to him, human beings were only biological organisms to which there were no spiritual realities attached.
    He considered his approach "scientific" and not philosophical.

    His theory about the mind is that human thought is caused by external stimulation bringing about bodily identification with other stimuli which the body had received and stored in the past.
    When this identification occurs, the body, or brain, mechanically creates an act of "will" which responds to the new stimulus.
    There is therefore no such thing as self-created thought or free will.
    To Wundt and his followers, man was but a sophisticated robot-type organism.

    His ideas were based upon experiments conducted in his labs and elsewhere.
    Some of those experiments revealed that one could produce the psychological manifestations of different emotions by applying electronic stimulation to different parts of the brain.
    Experimenters erroneously concluded that the brain must therefore be the source of personality because it triggers the physical manifestations of emotion and thought.
    The fallacy is obvious in their reasoning.
    The person conducting the experiment is applying the external stimulation.
    In other words, the brain centers are not self-triggering except in a very limited sense.
    The experimenters proved that it takes something else, something external, to trigger those brain centers.
    What, then, triggers those centers when the experimenter is no longer applying his electrodes???
    There must be another external source- a missing element.
    Although Wundt and others used the experiments to "prove" a purely biological basis to human thought, the results in fact were pointing the opposite direction.
    The first and most obvious rational conclusion (at least to me) is that the "missing element" is a "spiritual" aspect which produces its own energy which then stimulates the brain/body.

    Erroneous or not, the stimulus-response model of behavior became the new wave in psychiatry and received considerable support from the German gov't.
    Leipzig became the training ground for many prominent names in psychiatry such as Ivan Petrovich Pavlov.

    By redefining the nature of thought and behavior, scientific psychiatry also redefines the nature of mental abnormality and its cure.

    Methods to bypass human free will and intellect (behavior modification) were explored and developed.
    Because human beings were viewed as strictly biological-chemical-electrical organisms, all mental illnesses were said to be the result of psychological processes which were imbalanced.
    Experimenters theorized that mental illness could be cured by strictly physiological means, such as drugs, shock treatment, or brain surgery.
    Out of these theories arose a multi-billion dollar drug industry which pours out huge quantities of mood-altering drugs every year.
    These drugs are designed to relieve every mental ill from "insomnia" to violent psychosis.
    We have now had more than half a century to observe these cures in action and so can ask: is the world a saner place today than it was before the transnational drug cartels took over?
    But I digress.
    That could be the subject for another thread.
    This series of experiments shows us that there definitely is something which we cannot quantify which is pulling the strings on all our puppets, and we could then say that this is the soul of an individual.
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Identifying what "I" is.... Identifying what "you" is.

    Are we biology, psychology, philosophy or spirituality...

    I think as we continue to explore this we find ourcellves more connected than we know.
     
  20. Victor

    Victor Silver Haired Member

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    I don't want to appear vacant... I will be getting back here shortly, perhaps tomorrow. This is extremely interesting since I am preparing a scenario with our local Presbytery with this message. From my point of view the Church has a mission to complete... yes, I said complete, finish, bring to a close... so let me return when I have sufficient time to respond properly. I pray you will find it interesting.
     

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