What Kind of Place is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth ?

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by soleil10, Feb 7, 2010.

  1. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    What kind of Place is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth ?

    The Kingdom of heaven on earth is made of ideal families living in harmony with each other.

    This is the plan God gave in Gen 1:28 to our first ancestors in the garden "Create the first ideal family"

    Unfortunately God's lineage was tainted during their fall. God lost His sinless lineage ever since .....

    God's providence of salvation has been to bring forth the ideal family he lost in the garden starting from a sinless Messiah as the second Adam.

    This is how I understand Jesus' mission.
     
  2. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    Sounds like eugenics propaganda to me.


    *now...new improved genetic stock.....grow the ideal people....fully customizable from the new options menu.........we can build a better ewe...er..you.:rolleyes:
    Sheeple.
     
  3. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Hmmm, what will our planet be like as the Kingdom of Heaven becomes realized?

    I agree that the family unit is a critical part of this Kingdom. People will learn to get along with each other and to cooperate despite differences, whether these be superficial differences or differences of opinion, religious belief, political inclination or other ideology.

    Tolerance will become the standard, yet acceptance of our common heritage and an embracing of our highest potential will be encouraged and asked of every citizen. A celebration of human life rather than its denigration will become commonplace.

    Other lifeforms, including all of those we have yet discovered - and others we have yet to meet - will also be celebrated and honored. The planet will no longer be raped and exploited, or treated as an inanimate object. The true relationship between living systems within systems will increasingly be realized and respected, since it reflects a Heavenly Order which has yet to be successfully or fully echoed on Earth.

    As we come together as a planet and as a people, the various forms of expression of this Heavenly Order will reflect upon the planet via a World Government, a World Economy, and improved forms of public transportation and trade. National boundaries may persist for many generations, yet we will cease to emphasize these dividing factors and we will look at what unites us ... and we will learn to focus on the needs of the people regardless of what country they happen to call Home.

    It will not take major environmental disasters to bring people together, yet we will learn much about preparing for, even averting such disasters as our science improves the understanding of natural phenomena and shows how closely the Kingdoms of Nature interact with the Kingdom of Humanity.

    There will also be scientific discoveries made, or new light shed on old findings, which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt our survival of what we call death, and this means we will have everything we need to make certain shifts in our system of values. We will be able - even required - to reprioritize and to set new goals for ourselves, our families, our communities and our government, based on this discovery that life in the physical world is only one phase of existence.

    Since it will be demonstrated that our choices do have consequences for the life beyond, many people will become much more concerned about making the right choices - not just for themselves or their own families, but also extending all around them so that they can be a positive influence upon all people and all beings. This may even have an element of self-interest in it at first, but eventually there will be a common acknowledgment of the need to live simply, that others may simply live.

    A more equitable distribution of resources will occur, not by the immediate enacting of a Robin Hood or socialistic political philosophy, but by the increasing acceptance that in God's Kingdom, everyone has enough and no one is required to go without. People will be eager to work for the common good and will also be expected to do so, because the innate, fundamental VALUE of all Life will be honored. Everyone has a valuable contribution that he or she can make!

    Crime will not be totally eradicated overnight, aberrant behaviors will not simply disappear in a puff of smoke, yet these and other human problems will gain new attention, will come into consideration as temporary but not insurmountable obstacles to living upon and as a Sacred Planet.

    There will be a new appreciation that dawns regarding the statement that "In him we live and move and have our being." If our planet is to progress and take Responsibility for itself, then we will discover that certain sacrifices and acquiesences are vital and necessary - just as is the case with each person, for themselves, independently.

    Yet it is an Interdependence that we will be striving for, wherein each part has its own strengths but can also depend upon others for assistance. An overall balance will be our goal, and we will see this occur on different scales, from small to medium to large. Thus, families, communities, local governments and international, will all learn to cooperate without throwing their weight around, or bullying, or advancing individual agendas above the Good of the collective.

    Perhaps best of all, we will better understand the phrase, `The whole is Greater than the sum of its parts,' and this is something that every citizen will have the opportunity to experience firsthand. We will each be allowed, encouraged and also assisted in finding our place, in developing our individual strengths, and in learning to contribute these toward the improvement of self and other.

    These positive trends will come to characterize our civilization and our global village society, rather than unnecessary violence and bloodshed, ethnic cleansing and economic competition, environmental destruction and exploitation. Nations will be studied and considered for their unique role in how they may help contribute to alleviate some of these most daunting of Human problems. A world pool or world bank of resources will be established, including but certainly not limited to strictly economic and material forms of solution.

    This does not mean our struggles and our challenges will all be behind us. The path ahead is a difficult and a dangerous one. We have gotten ourselves here only by enduring many long ages of suffering and strife. Millions of years of wrong-doing and living out of tune with nature, with the planet, with ourselves and with God's Laws, must be balanced by our collective, corrective efforts to make things right.

    I think it is this recognition that God wants us to live in Harmony and Cooperation which may be one of our greatest collective strengths, and certainly a touchstone for all Christians to keep close to their hearts in the days ahead, come what may. This was largely the message of John Wesley, 200 years ago, as he sought to emphasize our Free Will ... rather than the strict Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination of an earlier generation.

    If we roll with the times, we will see that God has NEW TRENDS, New Hopes, New Dreams and a New Plan for His Children. It has ever been this way. The best of the past, the ideas and the behavioral patterns which are truly worth preserving, are worked into a new code of living ... and a New Covenant can be made, a new pact between God and Humanity becomes possible. This can only proceed, and can only come to characterize our Civilization, however, if we are willing, ready, eager and able - to adopt it.

    Let us Hope that we may see the Light and hear the Call sooner, rather than later ... and learn to Cooperate more willingly, rather than as a last resort. Let us learn to set God's Priorities above our own, and be willing to submerge our own interests ... in God's Plan for all.

    So Let it Be
     
  4. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    P.S. - In writing of his New Atlantis, Sir Francis Bacon speaks of an ideal land where "generosity and enlightenment, dignity and splendor, piety and public spirit" were the commonly held qualities of the citizenry.

    I wonder, how far is this from an accurate description of - the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth ...

    I tell you, I can already see it coming.
     
  5. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    The 1920's were an optimistic time with many people having thoughts of an impending golden age with the advent of technology and such.
    But we see how that turned out.
    Not so rosy.
    More deaths in one century than ever in recorded history in even longer spans of time.
    I believe in being optimistic and "the glass is half full", but I am also concerned that we will get fooled again by those who brought us the last 2 wars.
    They have not gone away.
    They were not beaten in the past 2 wars and were not brought to justice.
    They own the banks, the gov't and the military and we do not even know who "they" are.
    But "they" exist, none the less.
    And "they" do not seem done with their social experiment just yet.
    (*It is certainly not a Jewish conspiracy, as the semitic issue is just a shield to keep clever people from figuring it out, and sussing out who exactly the "nebulous they" really are.)
    I know that you have to "break a few eggs to make an omelet", but when all is so veiled within secret societies of elites who have been proven largely to be treacherous and capricious, it is hard to have any confidence in their actions, or that they have anybodies "best interests" really in mind when they implement their policies.


    Eventually, I believe we will reach an enlightened age, where we live together in peace as a family of humanity, but we who are alive right now may not live to see that day.
    I hope we do, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
     
  6. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    *chortles* Didn't Bacon also say: "By far the best proof is experience."
     
  7. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Precisely why we should listen to those who are already `there' ... ;)

    (I don't mean me ... so, who do I mean?)
     
  8. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    I don't know :/ Whom do you speak of?
     
  9. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    Quick question: When we're done building the Kingdom of Heaven, are we going to let God in?

    Personally, I say we at least charge him admission...
     
  10. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Good idea, Marsh. Ask to see a driver's license, Social Security card ... whatever helps you to make the ID. Gotta be careful about these things.

    Indeed, the Kingdom of Heaven will come into existence through Humanity - not despite Humanity.

    Since the thread asks what the Kingdom of God on Earth will be like, I chose to answer without theology and philosophizing, but with a practical and candid scenario (or set of conditions). Think of it as what visitors from another world would encounter if they dropped in on us and took a look to see how we're progressing. :)

    Wouldn't it be great if we could just sit back and let God do all the work. Yessirree, that kinda takes all the effort right out of it. And just what, exactly, is it that God all High and Mighty ... is waiting for ... if this is going to happen come what may, or - as some seem to think - regardless of what Humanity decides to do, or when we decide to do it? ;)
    "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45)
    I am disturbed and distressed by the idea that some seem to have, that they can sit on their - umm, muffin - and just believe their way into Heaven. Christ taught that Heaven is not a place, but rather a state of mind or of being, a Way of living, and even the very Path we tread. We have it within our power to realize the Kingdom of Heaven within, and also to share this with others.

    Until we chose to do this for everyone we meet, or at least to strive for this ideal, there is no way ... no means of communication ... by which Christ can approach, or through which His Message can reach Humanity.

    We are asked to be Bridge-Builders; see? :)
     
  11. friendofbill

    friendofbill New Member

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    All of this assumes (incorrectly, IMO) that the kingdom of Heaven is a place at all. Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you." Did He actually mean a literal "place?' If so, where is it? In the spleen? Is it visible under a microscpe? I must agree with Taijasi: the "Kingdom of Heaven" is not "a place."

    Or ... is the Kingdom of God a concept: a verbalization of the state of being in which the will of God is done and the power of darkness impotent? In a universe that is over 5 billion light years in size and rapidly expanding, which is 15 billion years old, to locate the "Kingdom of God" as a place ceases to have any meaning at all. It is not a place: it is a state of being, in which man finally says to God, "Thy will be done."

    and of course, as C. S. Lewis noted, hell is where God says to man, "thy will be done."
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
  12. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    What Jesus meant IMO is that the Kingdom of God starts within you.
    He said that we should become one.......
    As long that we are divided between our mind and body, there is a war within our ownself. We cannot be at peace.
    This gets multiply and extends to the couple, then family level etc....

    That is where it starts as I mentioned above.
    God lost the first family and lineage at the time of the human fall.
    The Kingdom of God on Earth means that God's unstainted lineage is back on the earth. Jesus became one with God as an individual but his life was cut short. He wanted to accomplish oneness as one family and expand the Kingdom from there.
    God's wants to dwell in united individuals, families, clans....etc
    He wants to dwell on the earth through his children....
     
  13. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    First, how on earth can anyone say what God wants.
    Anyone can make up what they want to say and nobody can confirm this.
    So this is futile as you can make up whatever you want and we can just chase each other around ad nauseum.

    Second, what God wants.... God gets, or else he/she/it is not God.

    I do like the point which you made:
    As that is at the core of the problem.
    We are divided inside ourselves which leads to separation outside ourselves.
    It is a "lack of unity" issue.
     
  14. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    Hmmmmmm..... nope, I don't agree. But it's not because what you are saying doesn't make sense, because it does; in an ideal world, good people would come together and build the kingdom of heaven, similar to how the Jews returned from Babylon to build the walls of Jerusalem again.

    But good people tend to have this nasty habit of being kind to others, and turning the other cheek when they are beaten down by ambitious types, who are in it (life, that is) for their own glory. We know that the Kingdom of Heaven will come someday, but is it realistic to think that it's going to come through the work of humanity, considering that the key quality needed to be a Prime Minister/President/Monarch/Chairman/Sultan/Emperor/etc is the ability to cut the throats of others to get ahead in life?
     
  15. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    I think it must .... What we have is a do or die situation. We either evolve into what we can and should be, or we will become extinct. It will more than likely take a great catrastrophy before we come together as one people, tho. My only only question is how soon before we face extinction?

    I say lets get this over with already!! Death is a scary thing to face, but outright extinction of our species is even more frightening.

    Would you give your life to ensure the continuation of the human race? Is the kingdom in our hands? [It must be] Surely we have all we need to bring it to fruition.


    ~~Live as if you are already there~~


    [youtube]NXDqGJzzJR0[/youtube]
     
  16. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    I hear what you're saying, Marsh, while I also agree with Gatekeeper's post. One of the expressions I have come across is `act as if' ... and this sounds a lot like ~~Live as if you are already there~~

    +~+

    Part of the difficulty - and I was pondering this just two nights ago - is that throughout history we have often seen violence and various forms of oppression used by conquerors ... and by world leaders (or governments, such as totalitarian regimes), even after they've come to power. It is especially difficult to reconcile this harsh reality with the idealistic visions that many have of some type of `Heaven on Earth.'

    But the Kingdom Christ speaks of, while certainly all are aware of the need to work for the Common GOOD, is not necessarily `perfect' the way we might choose to define perfect. It will not likely fit our conception of things, just as the expectations for the Messiah 2,000 years ago varied greatly depending on which group of people you talked to.

    Some were looking for a mighty warrior to come and overthrow the Romans ... but they were disappointed. Others may have expected that the Messiah would create the perfect kingdom of Heaven on Earth - but again, they were disappointed. I think they were looking for something to happen instantly, for Christ to somehow, magically, just cause people to all get along and live righteously overnight. And that did not happen.

    It is up to US.

    The question is, do you believe in the GOOD within Human Nature, and do you believe that this Good is part of God's Plan - that God gives us the capacity, not just to CHOOSE between Good & Evil (for most Christians would acknowledge this) ... but also for us to BECOME better people as a result of our choices?

    I do not accept the view that some people have which suggests were are incapable of Good ... or that we are mostly bad, but can "do good" on occasion. This has not been my experience, it is not what I see when I look at the world, and in fact, in so many cases, it is BECAUSE of our adversity, BECAUSE we are challenged, and BECAUSE there is the possibility of doing wrong (or evil) THAT we do Right (or Good).

    Praise SATAN ... PRAISE your Adversary - for without this challenge, without this adversity, without that rock to stumble over (and thus exclaim, in PAIN) ... you would not know Good, you would not know God.

    Jesus is fine, Jesus is lovely, but He teaches you and shows you NOTHING, if you do not have something with which to contrast his Good Works, his Way of living. As long as you can worship him, and keep him removed in your mind from being A Real MAN (person) to EMULATE - WWJD? - then sure, everything is hunky-dory, you can feel good about getting religion (and what have you really gotten?) ... yet Christ's application of His own Teachings may continue to exist in a vacuum!

    My interest is not in pointing the finger at anyone, at any group of people, or at the world - and saying, look, look! See how we fail to do as Christ has asked us to do! So long as we focus on the bad examples, we cannot improve, we cannot bring about the conditions which will allow the Kingdom of God to exist and flourish upon our planet.

    Praise Satan, Praise God for providing us with Satan ... not just so we can SEE the differences between living Righteously and unrighteously, but so that we can CHOOSE THEM, so we can put into practice what Christ has shown us. THINK about this. Angelic powers may exist - Mighty Beings next to Whom and which we are as dust, grains of sand, just a feather in the wind. These Powers may (do) literally bring planets, stars and galaxies into Being. Yet do they QUESTION? Do they think about whether or not to enact God's Will? Do they sit at McDonald's and take an extra 15 minutes on their lunch hour, since no one will really notice?

    The day that Christians can PRAISE SATAN (and can Praise God for providing us with the energies and forces which this word represents) ... will be the day we take one important step CLOSER to establishing the Kingdom of Heaven upon Earth. Ironically, the only way to defeat this Spirit of Adversity, is by recognizing, confronting, and trying to understand something of the PURPOSE for which God has allowed this very Spirit to co-exist here, upon this planet, with His Children, for so long.

    Did God not also create Satan? Was not Satan one of God's Angels? And, while Fallen, do you really think God abandons His Children, His Creations, even His Angels? Further, if Angels are supposed to ENACT God's Will, then how are you going to reconcile this teaching with the notion that Satan transgressed ... and somehow became cast out?

    Learn to put the pieces together. Good exists within us, and you darn well better get used to affirming it. Affirm it within yourself (God knows I have done the same) ... just as you have become accustomed to acknowledging and admitting that there is also evil. But also learn to affirm the Good within your NEIGHBOR, and do you best to overlook and forgive all that you recognize in him of evil. This is not running from Satan, this is not giving in; this is meeting Satan face to face, and shining a Light into the dark.

    And (while I cannot always prove the best example, I can nonetheless ask you to) Remember to SMILE.

    Do you think Satan will smile back at you in return? It's only a relevant question if you personify those forces which struggle against Righteousness. But remember why these forces exist; remember why God has provided us with the GIFT of the Angel of Satan, the adversary.

    This thread is about the K of H on E. So why the talk about Satan?

    Because we know that the former is resisted by the latter. That is Satan's JOB. Hmm, Job?

    Well anyway, if Satan did not resist, we would not have the opportunity to learn, we would have no way to progress, and God's Kingdom could not come into being on this planet ... because we would be an unchanging, rather boring sort of people.

    Satan provides us with a bad example, if we wish to collate all of the negative tendencies that people have, and form these into an unpleasant image. Sure, that's helpful IF it enables us to see the OPPOSITE Qualities in a higher light, in the Light of God (or Reason). God is very Reasonable, I should think, and surely God has provided us with plenty of GOOD examples in addition to the negative. Can you think of some?

    Focus on those (some stand out more than others, but even Christians can look to many sources of inspiration - within Humanity - other than just Jesus) ... and you will gravitate toward Righteousness. You will develop into the mature being, spiritually, morally, psychologically and outwardly, that God desires of us.

    The violent conquests of our planet's past, the totalitarian leaders and their regimes, do not always show us the very best of which even those Souls are capable. The reason is that such Souls are conditioned by a Divine Energy which can easily become destructive or devastating if it is not carefully stepped down and applied. This energy can destroy on the individual level, or it can be devastating in groups of people - especially if one or more members of that group pulls away from the true, organizing Spirit (or Purpose) of that group.

    On the scale of the very tiny, we have been Blessed with a glimpse into the powerful, AWESOME nature of the energy and forces which are inherent in EVERY ATOM of substance. Even physical matter - on the tiniest scale you can imagine - contains this amazing power of GOD. Do not think you are considering anything other than yet another piece, yet another example, of God's Creative handiwork ... when you consider the atom, or matter itself.

    So if this destructive power, this capacity, exists on the atomic/sub-atomic scale, and if it also exists on the scale of the individual person as well as groups of people (even at the level of nations & governments), is it any surprise that when we look out through today's various types of telescopes - we witness explosions in the heavens, the violent formations and deaths of the stars themselves?

    Remember, this is a DIVINE ENERGY - and it is NOT evil. Evil is the resisting of Good. Evil is the tendency to REMAIN STAGNANT, to resist change when change is what is sorely needed. Evil is the transgression of any of God's Laws - and of these Laws we know there are many.

    We don't need to become complicated, however, in considering what these Laws are. While they have been expressed in many ways throughout the ages, and while Humanity is learning new ways to interpret and apply these Laws ... they have been summarized for, especially within Christianity and by the Christ, in recent times.

    Christ taught us to Love our neighbor even as we love (or cherish) our own self.

    This Law is very straightforward. Yet because we are complicated creatures, it is not always so easy to apply it. We are multi-Principled beings, in the Spiritual sense. We have elements of Good within us, yet we also have elements of what we call evil.

    And so long as we resist evil, we are denying part of our being. Why waste time asking, what, then, should I DO about this evil? Why not ask, What about those GOOD elements of our nature? How can I develop the GOOD, or help bring out those aspects - in my own nature, in others whom I encounter, and in all the greater groups in which I serve or am privileged enough to have membership ... such as your community, nation, or planet.

    This is not avoiding the problem of evil; it is simply learning to re-orient ourselves to that part of our Nature which is worth preserving, worth developing, worth perfecting.
    Greater things than this YE shall do.

    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
    unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

    It will not happen overnight. It will not happen tomorrow. But it CAN happen today, each day. It's in everyone you meet; it's in your smile.

    Do not WAIT. But strive to MAKE it happen, knowing that we work not alone ... and knowing that wherever you go, whatever you do, so long as your heart is pure and your motivation is Good, so Good will result from your efforts. This is the Law of LOVE - and Christ taught no other.

    ~~

    You might try reading a few of the quotes or posts here, just on this last page. They have been inspiring to me ...

    Also the thread on Democratic religion and spiritual democracy is quite relevant.

    And what I have noticed for several weeks on a church sign where I live ... seems appropriate:
    If God brings us to it
    He will bring us through it
    ++

    Alright, you can have your stump back. Time for me to think about what I just posted. If I believe every word of it (and I do), then it should be good advice for me, too! In fact, I may have posted it for me, and not just for you ... ;) (yes, I talk to myself a lot)

    All I ask is that - if you reply to me, do at least read the whole post, maybe even twice, or more. Consider the context of what I say. Surprise me. Prove that you can respond without being reactive. And if you disagree with something, GOOD! Just tell me WHY. What I have found, is that the majority of disagreements between people - even philosophical or on religious matters - occur because of misunderstandings.

    And that is what I believe Jesus foresaw, in Gethsemane, wishing and desiring so Greatly (and RIGHTLY) that He might be able to somehow, magically, make it happen for us. But He cannot force agreements, or single-handedly make us understand one another. Rather, we ourselves must FORGE (Vulcan, Hephaestus) such Right Relations between one another, and Connect or Unite in a common Spirit, with shared understandings. (Thus, tell me `where you're coming from!') ;)
     
  17. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Problem with "visionaries" is they never mention the dark side of Utopia...

    As long as we are mortal human beings, there will be imperfection, even in Shangri-La.

    Q
     
  18. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    No, I would not.
     
  19. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    Your description sounds more like the "Kingdom of Not-too-bad" than the "Kingdom of Heaven."

    The Bible has a clear description of how the Kingdom of God will be established on earth, and whether you want to take it literally or whether you want to take it metaphorically, the bottom line is that the establishment of the Kingdom of God requires the separation of good from not good. It's no surprise that you expect the Kingdom to be less than perfect, since you're assuming that we're going to build it ourselves. But in the words of Mother Abigail, that just ain't the truth.

    Mankind's future was locked up a long time ago-- at least at the time of the prophet Daniel, if not before then. It's like a chess game: if you can see far enough, and have enough knowledge, you can know the outcome within the first few moves. Believe that humans will turn things around and create a perfect world if you want, but I think that's pretty naive thinking. Here's what I think is a bit more realistic:

    1. Goodies of all sorts will continue to try and create a perfect world, because that's the sort of thing that goodies do.

    2. Meanies will also unite their efforts in order to try to create their "perfect world," and since they're mean, they'll win, because they'll win at all costs.

    3. When the meanies take over everything and leave absolutely no recourse (like, oh, I dunno, like when they execute everyone who believes in God), God will step in and destroy the meanies, leaving only goodies.

    Sorry, dude, but if I was a gambling man, I'd bet on the meanies right now. After all, if THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH, it means that someone else must have owned it first, and that someone must have died...
     
  20. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    What if we were speaking figuratively? What I mean is - Would you give up a life of selfishness to do your part in ushering in the kingdom so all humanity might benefit from your actions? Isn't that what we are called to do, Marsh? (Die to self/Live for God) To be good stewards, and serve one another? I have great hope for mankind, but unless we each do our part that hope will slowly turn into destruction for our species. That's why I think we should live as if we are already in the kingdom.

    If not now then when .... Surely we don't expect to inherit that which we refuse to live for today. Belief and faith are great, but unless we are living them out in our daily lives, one might consider them useless and void. Faith w/o works is dead, no?
     

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