I now believe in god, and invite you to prove me wrong… ;)

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by _Z_, Apr 4, 2010.

  1. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    Would not God be rather a Sovereign?
    Then He is not a "Person" (mask/ [FONT=&quot]Cestui que).
    Perhaps this depends on which "God" in particular you are referring to.
    But to call God a "Person" is to deal with a fictitious entity rather than God in fact who announced himself as I am that I am....no name....no "personage"....just a fact.
    [/FONT]
     
  2. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Hi everybody!

    I am glad to see a discussion on the Absolute, because the Absolute is a key part of my belief system.

    Z, you have asked for a description of the Absolute. I do not think we can describe the Absolute. It is said that the finite (human) mind cannot understand the infinite, and that what is happening when we try to describe the infinite (Absolute).

    There have been many attempts to describe the Absolute, but they always end up describing what the Absolute is not; the Absolute is not this, the Absolute is not that. This is actually a pretty good description of the Absolute, because this is as close as we can get to describing it.

    One description that is always given is that the Absolute is immutable, which means unchanging. For example, in the Bible, God gets angry. In other words, God changes from being in a state of non-anger to being in a state of anger. In this way God is said to change or be mutable. It is said the Absolute is immutable.

    And I do not see the Absolute as being either male or female.
     
  3. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    The Absolute Truth is a Persona Suprema. That is one of the two classical view-points of that which is absolute. ---The other classical view-point is, The Absolute Truth is a Void ~hence all [as done by living beings en toto] is up for grabs by any king-of-the-mountain-as-long-as-they-can-of-all-they-survey, paradym.

    The principle of "A Personality (via 'PERSONA')" is the governing principle.

    We are spirits in the material world. The material world is place of sufferring whilst in persuit of continuous gratification ---ending with tax payments and death and a future re-birth with only the merit/pious/cultivation to accrue a future birth that may (or may not) cause you a wonder-lust that accrues another future birth that as yet can only be guessed at (with the hope for nothing but MORE continuous gratification).

    The soul is a PERSONA. Material Energy is ACTIVE. Similarly the Soul MUST BE ACTIVE TOO.

    The soul seeks out (ultimately & idealistically) active reciprocal love with a PERSONA ---this is the maxim of theism.


    "we have dimension and being all existing in a space."
    Yes!
    And so does God. But he is here in the material world in the form of his EXPANDED ENERGIES that facilitate all creatures great and small to seek out their Free-will & independence in a place where Time Transpires.

    And we act to seek PERSONS; versus seeking Stuff or chemicals or liquids or thoughts all on there own ---unless one is anti-social ['anti-social' IMO, due to the indentification of the ego with onesown thoughts].

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


    NTP has touched upon the very classic method at arriving at 'what is absolute?':
    Check-off on a list, everything you encounter [hence the phrase, neti-neti] until there is nothing left.

    The Void is absolute because its "qualities are immutable".

    The Sanskrit Vedas say, God expands his energies to form the Material and the Spiritual Worlds.
    In the Material world God exists in Three Aspects:
    1 Brahman [the void] ---the void is untainted by matter/energy/time . . . just like each Soul is.
    2 Paramatma [the life-force nucleus of each particle of matter & energy]
    3 Bhagavan [The Personage of Godhead Transcendent] ---La Persona Suprema de Dio.

    Neti neti
    Neti neti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In Hinduism, and in particular Jnana Yoga and Advaita Vedanta, neti neti may be a chant or mantra, meaning "not this, not this", or "neither this, nor that" (neti is sandhi from na iti "not so"). Neti neti is a saying found in the Upanishads and especially attributed to the Avadhuta Gita.
    Neti neti is also an analytical process of conceptualizing something by clearly defining what it is not. One of the key elements of Jnana Yoga is often a "neti neti search."
    Adi Shankara was one of the foremost Advaita philosophers who advocated the neti-neti approach.
    Neti-neti is held as the approach to understand the concept of Brahman without using affirmative (and thereby inadequate) definitions or descriptions of Brahman, comparable to apophatic theology in Eastern Christianity.
    The purpose of the exercise is to negate conscious rationalizations, and other distractions from the purpose of a meditation. It is also a sage view on the nature of the Divine, and especially on the attempts to capture and describe the essence of God. In this respect, the phrase succinctly expresses the standpoint of negative theology.


    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    The Absolute Truth is indeed must exclude no attributes . . . and yet, that which is absolute is also a a void 'with-out qualities [nirvana]'.

    The Absolute Truth must include male and female [duality] and The Absolute Truth is also the motivatinf factor that maintains the flux of all the Energies ----Which came first, the energies or the Energetic Person?

    To say the Energetic Person came first then we assign all poteniality to a Person that is the Energies incarnate. God was born with a silver spoon in his own mouth ---and he expands to give 'enjoyment' to other Persons ---ideally in reciprocation with God himself; or alternatively, in reciprocation with his name, fame, form, personality, paraphenalia, entourage, and pastimes birth after birth ---even from a distance.

    There is free-will for all souls ---but it all transpires in a dynamic world of common recipes.
     
  4. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Would not God be rather a Sovereign?

    There are 5 reciprocal pastimes that the soul engages mano-a-mano with God ---while in Heaven [this is not the same as celetial abodes where one acts polite so as not to get "Fired" "Sacked" "made redundant"]:

    5 reciprocal pastimes the soul engages with God in Heaven:

    1 Nuetralty
    2 Servilty
    3 Fraternity
    4 Parental
    5 Loving
     
  5. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    To label God as a "person" is to state that he is fictitious as "persons" are legally fictitious entities.....masks. You can confirm this by reading a Blacks law commentary.
    Like your name on your drivers license is a fictitious entity.
    An incorporated trademarked entity, not the living breathing man in fact.
    God has no name and so cannot be a "person" as only "person's" can have names.
     
  6. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    "persons" are legally fictitious entities

    What? This is false.

    Do you mean the ego is false?

    You are a Person and you will protect your ego.

    IE: Shawn, you are a grand fool.


    Please sense the defensive sense of insult you feel as a person when reading my sample sentence above.

    another sample example: Your girlfriend/wife would be better off with me & your cash would be better off in my Pocket.

    PM me for info to send your cash to me and a picture of your girlfriend/Wife so I can see if she is a beffiting person.

    "God has no name and so cannot be a "person" as only "person's" can have names."

    God has the same name since time began.

    It is Persons (souls) that take on the mask of actors doing the tasks alloted to each worker seeking sense-gratification as best they can.
     
  7. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    Actually, it is true.
    But I am not a "person", I have a "person" which is embodied in my legal name.
    So by insulting my strawman you are merely proving your idea to be in error as I do not care what you may call that entity.
    In The Beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth...
    And evil people created Persons.
    The word Person comes from the Latin word Persona,
    which means mask.

    A Person is a fictional entity in an imaginary world.
    But that is the reality of the Legal world.

    It does not and cannot exist in the real world, where you and I live.
    A PERSON has 2 attributes, both of which are hearsay, which are a Name and a Birth Date.

    Law books having skewed the definition to include corporations as being a Person, is the crux of the Fraud and the truth of the illusion.
    A Corporation can not be a living man male or female created by God.
    Yet they have the same exact treatment before the Law, but are imaginary.

    A human being is not a living man male/female created by God, human means Color of man and thus is not the species of man of God.

    Corporations exist in an imaginary world, we and God do not.

    The idea of there being natural or artificial Persons in relation to a living man male of God is a fraud for a Natural Person is a person, thus a fiction with some fictional attributes.

    It is also important to note that a man created male or female by God is only a reference point from the King James Bible, in terms of LAW franchised from the BAR in THE CITY OF LONDON, this is the best way to describe ourselves in relation to that fraud, for they make use of the King James Bible with a letter of patent.
    The foundation of all LAW on the planet is to fraudulently equate a PERSON, a fictional entity as being a man created male or female by God.

    The main trick that they use is to attempt to get you to sign on fraudulently as a SURETY for the PERSON and thus whatever they do in their imaginary world, they can do to you as the SURETY.

    Thus because it is an imaginary world they are indemnifying themselves from what they do to you through fraudulent contracts. It is a scam.

    The simple foundation of PERSON is that they want you to buy into the idea that a PERSON is the same as a fictional entity called a CORPORATION and as such a Corporation can have GOD status over us, such as a Country/Government has.


    It is living being, or luminous beings to me.
    Persons is a word entirely taken by the legal society and has been debased with its implied legal meanings.
     
  8. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    bhaktajan,

    My understanding is that, in Hinduism, The Absolute is Parabrahman/Parabrahm and that God is Brahman/Brahma. Is that how you see it?
     
  9. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    As a druid I believe; you can touch this eternity and know everything because eternity touches everything so knows it on the most intimate level. The experience of this is the ultimate goal, from there on we are no longer immersed in ignorance. Only then are we truly what we are, hence as it is an individually experienced thing, and the ultimate experience of individuality, there can be no overall single path. This is why individuality and freedom are so highly regarded in celtic society and esp in its spirituality. :)

    The universal base is the same for all, it is a oneness, and hence we can all touch it as it is already within us.

    Indeed!

    It seams god is more passive than the scriptures infer, wouldn’t you think this is wisdom? To stand back, to be unattached.

    Well I agree about the gift of self determinism, people in the blame game seam to forget about that aspect. However you now describe expanded energies, which to me means a universal god? One that touches everything.

    I am still left with the idea of the base reality being something that we and all things are part of.

    Ok here’s a question; what is absolute? What are its limits/limitlessness, we have to describe what it is before we can move on - if I may.
    I am thinking that it is an ‘objective infinity’ and a oneness, thus everything we and all things are, would be within that oneness. In this it can have a person as we do and a soul as we do, but all its aspects as within a oneness and canot be properly defined as the separate entities thereof.
     
     
  10. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    bhaktajan,

    My understanding is that The Absolute = Parabrahman/Parabrahm and God = Brahman/Brahma is also true in Advaita Vedanta. Is that how you see it?
     
  11. immortalitylost

    immortalitylost Say Meow.

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    And it can have a person and a soul as we do and hold our souls and persons within its oneness and yet be completely separate and hold nothing at all within itself at once. Such is a part of the nature of absolute I'd gather.

    Nice stuff.
     
  12. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    My understanding is that The Absolute = Parabrahman/Parabrahm and God = Brahman/Brahma is also true in Advaita Vedanta. Is that how you see it?

    BTW, this is "How you Read it".

    The way "I see it" ---comes from instruction from authorities of a subject that came before me.


    The Absolute = God the Person.
    God's Person = "The conclusion of the Vedas [aka, vedanta, veda + anta]"
    The conclusion Vedanta Mysticism = God the Person.
    God is the embodiment & original source of all Persona
    'Para-brahman' ['Supreme Brahman'] = God the Person.
    'Param-atma' ['Supreme Soul'] = God the Person (localised in each particle of creation).

    God the Person must not be confused with a demagogue on any stratum of our mundane lives.

    God the Person as revealed in the Bhagavad-gita etc of India is accompanied by all the metaphysical knowledge of the construct of the material energy [earth, water, fire, ... mind, intell, ego + Brahman + Time + Param-atma] and then finally Bhagavan (Godhead, the Person).

    Those that have felt much sufferring in past lives may be 'angry' to learn that along through the ages this open-book knowledge simply laid dormant without being broadcast to the busy-bee masses.
     
  13. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    my "Ah ha!" moment = I am so small, so I must seek out the reason for being in this ocean. The majority don't seek such things.
     
  14. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    shawn Executive Member Wrote:

    The simple foundation of PERSON is that they want you to buy into the idea that a PERSON is the same as a fictional entity called a CORPORATION and as such a Corporation can have GOD status over us, such as a Country/Government has.


    It is living being, or luminous beings to me.
    Persons is a word entirely taken by the legal society and has been debased with its implied legal meanings.

    ===============================================
    ===============================================
    COME ON! OH COME ON!

    Mixing metaphors; overlooking the primary meaning; creating non-sequators; insulting for the sake of faux indignation; OH COME ON MAN!

    False Witness is a sin that cultivates delusion.

    Stop it.
     
  15. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    bhaktajan
    I don't know what country you live in, but if you look at the law books of USA or Canada or the UK you will find that indeed all I have said is true in courts of law.
    I can show you judicial rulings to prove it. SO I don't know why you find this info affronting or whatever.
    The word "person" is used exactly that way in these countries.
    So maybe you have another definition in mind for that word.
    That is fine.
    English is like that, in that, it is necessary to establish which definition you are using at the outset to avoid semantic wranglings.
    Your usage of the word is not wrong, but neither is mine.
    Both are correct as the word has different usages and that is what I have been illustrating.
    There has been no false witness.
     
  16. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    immortalitylost

    Good point! I can understand the similarity of our individuality, however we exist in a finite space, god exists in a oneness. The difference is that everything else exists in that oneness, so god would be within all things, the universe his body and we [and all life] his/her children. See why we have to define the space and body before we can say how the divine personage works and is. It would seam more right to make divinity personless in the context of a whole.

    bhaktajan

    Ok so how do you have a universal persona and an absolute one?
    Would you describe the divine body as encompassing ‘earth, water, fire, ... mind, intell, ego + Brahman + Time + Param-atma’? or is it an emptiness? Seams like a massive contradiction on the face of it.
     
     
     
  17. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Are we talking philosophically or in actuality?

    A] Ok so how do you have a universal persona and an absolute one?
    I don't know what this question is asking?

    We are persons, God is a person.
    I am saying that the "maxim of God being a person" is reflected in all exchanges and permutations of existence.

    If we evolved from microscopic cell to monkeys to humans ['persons'] ---that would be an example of the latent PERSONA as the final conclusion of all that 'evolution'.
    Since the 'Microscopic Cell Stage' it was providence & manifest destiny to reach Person-hood when the evolution was fully resolved.

    OTOH,
    The historical obseravtion is that "Knowledge/Sophistication/Culture/Intellect/Technology/Health skills/Sex know-how" -were all past down from outside sources.
    We are all aboriginals ---and our 'Status Quo as Humans' was given to us by those that were already in the linage of those in-the-know.

    Since time-immemorial, Societies/Persons that were sophisticated are the ones responsible for the distribution of knowledge out of their own egalitarian sensibilities.

    The magna carta was meant to bestow [from upon high] Liberty; even if it ment the un-wash masses might rise-up and throw down any Person that sought to subjugate others.

    What is meant by Universal persona?
    God is his own person! We ain't God. God is NOT a Baby Sitter. God is His own exclusive Person. We , as individual souls in the material world are tiny sparks of consciousness. God lives outside the Blackened Enclosure of this Cosmos we see in the night-sky beyond the stars. [No hyperbole intended here; it's stated in the Vedas].

    What is meant by an absolute person?
    This is thee Question. Material affairs follow the Laws of Physics. Anti-matter follows the Laws of anti-Physics; I guess. Women act like women; Men like men; along with overlapping transmutations on that theme. Dark & Light; Ying and yang are example of Duality as it manifests. The stars exist in space. Water is wet. Dogs bark. The Sun lights the cosmos ---these are absolute. They absolutely represent their own 'Dharma' [their own constitutional duties ergo, their own 'being'].

    After searching out all the ramification(s) of the Dharma of all things existing ---we can conclude two ABSOLUTE things:

    My person is involved will All that is temporary; hence, A person is best to stop being a part and parcel of the phantasmagoria of various forms of "Stuff".

    or,

    All is summed up by My person meeting The Supreme Personality of Godhead.

    Meeting and returning to the pastimes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the an abolute proposition.

    Would you describe the divine body as encompassing ‘earth, water, fire, ... mind, intell, ego + Brahman + Time + Param-atma’?
    Yes. [Just as the billionaire Tycoon can walk amongst the common people along streets and Buildings and Security Guards and Hostesses that are all beholding to him ---but, we don't have to bow down to the tycoon. Most likely the tycoon doesn't have any additional need to seek out the thoughts & opinions of pedestrians passing through his real estate development ---he has agents that will gladly do the work for him ---so that the Tycoon can sport about as he likes].
    God "expands" His energies to the far reaches macro & microscopically ---God is aloof while engaging in His own sporting pastimes.

    Free-will among the spirit souls, that we are, means we are on 'our own recognisance' [note that word cognition (consciousness) is part and parcel of the word recognisance] --we are on our own Honor System here in the material world of repeated birth & death. We, by our own free will must muster the motivation to see the Absolute Person, rather than karma-based mates in various epochs and species.

    Emptiness?
    A person is the diametrical opposite of Emptiness. Everything is opposite of Emptiness. All of the "10 Thousand Things" exist (without the possibility of seperation) within an empty field. The field graciously give refuge to all the "things" to exist and transpire and permutate. It is the presence of a Conscious Life-Force (soul) that leads all living-creatures to be animated . . .


    Seams like a massive contradiction on the face of it.
    YES!!!! That is the nature of the Material World!!! Duality!!!
    Supreme Irony!!!
    That is the nature of the Material Duality is "Irony".

    It is "ironic" that when you watch a Comedy ---The punch line is always at some one's expence. The laugh comes when the Fool is revealed. Slip on a banana and fall may be funny ~Raise the Stakes Higher~ George Bush Slips on a banana and falls will cause many to laugh . . . yet, we have been at war since 2001 . . . and everyone is simply trying to "Make an Honest living" [while a war is fought, we go on living 'in spite of it' ---seams like massive contradition on the face of the taxman's ledger]
     
  18. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    bhaktajan
    Both.

    I mean that the absolute cannot be universal, the two terms are contradictory.

    If god has an infinite base and we do too, then this is not the case. So again we have to define our basis so as to ascertain as to which perspective is truer.

    There no ‘if’ about evolution. What is ‘personhood’; when a human reaches it, or the nature of god [are we then gods], do animals have it, or nature? Other than this question I largely agree there is some measure of design and purpose, that eventually universes produce planets like earth with people like humans upon it, and has probably done so many billions of times.

    Nah, knowledge was acquired over time, if god gave it to us, then he takes away the gift of self determination. Why would he need to when he knows we will learn.


    So you say, but you cant have an infinite god like that. You have to define ‘gods space’ and ‘space’ then the duality betwixt, and also deny that god is infinite [without limit].

    So is gods, and equally both, indeed we and he are not aggregates of transience alone. Why the duality?

    Once you defined what you mean by all the above, perhaps you can define ‘godhead’?

    Not if emptiness = oneness! Then all aspects are within it in an undifferentiated manner.

    The material world may seam dualistic but from what you say so is the divine. My feelings are that duality does not exists, it is only apparent.
     
  19. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    bhaktajan,

    You said,

    "The Absolute = God the Person."

    --> OK, I see where you are coming from. In my belief system, the Absolute is completely impersonal and has none of the traits you are describing. I guess we can just agree to disagree on this one.
     
  20. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    That which is "apparent" is actual existence.

    You are saying all is ultimately false.

    Nah, All is real AND TEMPORARY.

    It is false only because it is TEMPORARY.

    All that is seen to be apparently real IS REAL . . . but it is TEMPORARY.

    The principle of everything's constitutional purpose is served out [throughout time] is NOT ABSLOUTE so it is TEMPORARY ---but just see that it is seen from the POV of a conscious soul who is Eternal and Absolute.

    I am talking metaphysically ---I am talking for real in actuality, as in, the nature of how the Cosmos Manifests Itself.

    This is not what is seen in existence. water absolutely is universally coveted.
    The entire business industry is based on selling Stuff that is universally sought by all consumers. This is an absolute fact of Business enterprises Class 101.
    "Build it and they shall come"

    All exchanges and permutations of existence form a journey for the evolution of the Souls' sensibilities toward higher stratums of sophistication and polished means of living . . . [add to this paradym, samsara (cycle of transmigration of the soul from birth to birth in various species of living creature as per accrued/cultivated Karmic pay back ~ the sanskrit word: 'karma-phalam', fruits-of-work) and one repeats the whole process in a dis-jointed series of consecutive births indifinitely until "salvation is sought out" via one of two catagories of spiritual paths: I - Nirvana; or, II - devotion to Godhead ---Where Godhead is concerned, the aspirant is best advised not to assign the Title of Godhead to any one accept thee Absolute truth. If There is a Godhead, then by definition, That Godhead would be the Absolute Truth Personified ---nothing else will due for the Absolute Truth as Godhead Personified or else, nirvana is second best sought out. Yet, of course, one can always plan to have a good, happy, & healthy 'next' future lifetime too.

    Humans are above the bestial.
    But the common denouminators are as follows [per yogic doctrine]:
    All living creatures do 4 catagories of activities which encompase all acts:
    1 eat,
    2 sleep,
    3 mate,
    4 defend.
    If one's life does not 'transcend' these 4 catagorical activities then one life, at best can be called, 'Polished Animal Life' ---not that there's anything wrong with that.

    Old Vedic adage:
    "How do you know who your real father is? Ask your mother."

    Ones' mother may not have belonged to the Labor Guilds, nor matriculated & graduated from a proper Trade School, nor successively cooked a decent meal ---and thus was bereft knowledge as passed down from generations that provided future generations old time trades secrets. But many a civilisation are a result of seeking technology & industry after the fact that they acquired the "know-how" from outside sources.

    If you want to be a:
    doctor, go to medical school.
    carpenter, go to carpentry school.
    electrics, go to electronic school,
    chef, go to culinary school,
    auto-mechanic, go to an automotive school
    et al.

    We acquire knowledge from the 'Descending Process' [not via an Ascending process] ---know-how is passed down person-to-person in chain-of-succession ---weather or not we belong to the clan in-the-know, or we are just hoping to gain entry to a particular skill-set.


    Every taxi Cab Driver must learn all the streets ---he can deliver his fare just anywhere that is nearest his favorite fishnchips. There is always this meditation-state that preoccupies our paths in life ---This is what is said before one is licensed to preform the duties of Cab Driver.

    The Infinite that you refer to is made finite by your pronouncements.
    Within this world there is a trenmenduosly large society of insects & beasts with an economy and stanard of living that is meant only for vicious, envious, brutish, canivorous, night-vision-seeing sort of folks. The evolution of the souls via the various stratum of living is infinitely varied . . . but is devoid of self-consciousness.

    Self-realisation is knowing, 'we are spirits in a material world; in a material body; taking birthy after birth; sometimes as a Demigod, sometimes as a mule--due to karma accrued'.

    God is his own person ---We are spirits in a material world; in a material body . . . in a place where TIME EXISTS.

    God is 'Sat-chitta-ananda'. God is 'eternal-All cognisant-all blissfull' ---unlimitedly, God the Person is the original reservior of all Material Energies and Personal Traits too.
    ..................................................
    Material world [aka, the sankrit word, Maya., lit., mine all. Usually used to denote the idea of, illusion] =

    an empty space [brahman] that provide refuge for:

    the 8 Manifest aggregates that comprise the elements of material energy
    (grosser to subtiler: earth, water, fire, air,ether, mind, intelligence, false ego)

    put in flux by the 'tri-gunas'
    [aka, ying & yang & yung ---my wording. Tri-guna is exactly equal to the idea of ying-yang but there is a thirtiary factor, not just dual factors]

    Impregnated by God's Surveying Glance with souls that will animate the material elements

    where the co-factor of all material affairs are beholding to: TIME.

    The over-arching quality of all of the above taken as a whole is that it all is:
    Created, at the beginning;
    Maintained, during its interm;
    Desolved, at its end state.

    Material Energy is Created, Maintained, and Desolved, at its end ---and then recycled back into the mix for endless permutations.

    The souls that animate the material elements are minicule "PART-AND-PARCEL" fragments of Spirit-Energy.

    Spirit-Energy = Sat-chit-anada.
    Our soul is made of spiritual energy, but just a spark; a spark that is self-conscious, yet now encased in a FALSE-EGO (ergo the concominant 'Intelligence, mind, Body, et al) ---all transpiring in a realm where time stands supreme.

    It is said, when we return to the Timeless Eternal Kingdom of Heaven, beyond the Temporal material world, even after billions of 'birth after birth reincarnations' of lives of base 'sense-gratification of all varieties'--- when we return to the Heaven, it will be like we have only been fallen from heaven fror a brief moment.

    /Is this what ex-president Clinton said about women? "Existence? It depends what you mean by exist"
     

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