I now believe in god, and invite you to prove me wrong… ;)

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by _Z_, Apr 4, 2010.

  1. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Absolute maxim:
    "When you want to know who your real father is . . . ask your mother."

    When a court judge passes a "Verdict" ---your Solicitor better know what maxims are written in the Book of Laws.

    BTW, first came the infractions/injustices/traspassess . . .then it was recorded, debated reviewed pronounced recorded passed down fought wars over and then established governmental proceedures to perpetuate that which constitutes civil life for all strangers . . . but this is done by Leaders onbehalf of the manual labor classes.

    Marx, was writting "his concepts" and the preceeding generations reverted to traditional free-enterprise after the social experimenting dwindled . . . same for China.

    But, then black-market world must alway be put in-check lest
    what we actually know ---will be spelt out by self-proclaimed Demagouges.
     
  2. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    A] Actually the Title of this thread pertains to this pursuit.
    I am directly describing God.
    You prompt a funny:
    When at a resturant, the waiter arrives to take one's order, one might say,
    "It's not a matter of eating or even ordering food"
    ---surely the waiter would care not a wit, except to be asured he'll be given a gratuity before that party leaves.

    "personal knowledge" of what subject?

    B] Read my little example of, "The God is a Person Principle" mini-discertation below. Please tell me what you thing of the logic that I present in it in regards to your qualification.


    Cat,
    So one man's Logic has no bearing on another's logic?
    IMO, between the liones of what you wrote is a contempt for other's heartfelt conviction. The empathy for another person's journey means you 'Already' know what they are talking about by following along with their presentation.

    Ie: The was a earthquake in Haiti. ---[I ASSUME you know what 'haiti' means, what earthquake means ---and then an enquiry into the persons are fairing] ---{Maybe my example here is convoluted?}

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    I believe in God. He is absolute in lives in an eternal realm beyond time, [beyond the affects of the modes of "creation, maintanence, & dissolution]; where He has his own pastimes ---far from where we are here on this planet.

    BTW, He exists in three aspects [which compose the entire cosmi phenomena]: A) The Void, B) the nucleus of every speck of animate & inanimate matter-energy, and, C) His own (Transcendental) Personage.

    This belief of mine expressed above is based on hearing from Mother-Vedas (of India) in the same way that we know who our biological father really is when hearing it from ourown biological mother.

    An ancient maxim:

    "Philosophy without religion is Metal Speculation (aka, subjective guesswork);

    Religion without Philosophy is sentimentality (aka, fanaticism)."


    }}}}>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[O]]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<{{{{{​

    There is a always a personality behind the scene:
    "The God is a Person Principle"
    (or "Why Atheistic Philosophers can't deny that there is always a personality behind the scene"):

    Q. Who is the personification of the American Dollar Bill?
    A. George Washington.

    Q. Who is the Living Personification of the American Dollar Bill?
    A. Barak Obama.

    Q. Who is the personification of the State of New York'?
    A. The Governor (Mr. Paterson)

    Q. Who is the personification of one of the many regional Counties of New York State?
    A. The County Executive.

    Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Congressional Districts of New York State?
    A. The Congressman/State Representative.

    Q. Who is the personification of New York City?
    A. The Mayor (Mr. Blumberg).

    Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Districts of New York City?
    A. The Councilman/Ombudsman.

    Q. Who is the personification of any 'Block and Lot' tax-parcel of land?
    A. The title barer (The Land owner).

    Q. Who is the personification of the any Apartment building?
    A. "The Landlord".

    Q. Who is the personification of any apartment?
    A. The tenant.

    Q. Who is the personification of the room with the football and the many toy Trains?
    A. One of the male children.

    Q. Who is the personification of nursery room?
    A. The Baby.

    The point of my illustration is:
    "Without the presence of the persona, all paraphernalia is without meaning nor purpose for existing"

    Best regards,

    Bhaktajan


    PS:
    Q. Who is the personification of a Atheistic Philosophers?
    A. His temporary illusion? A theist (a hindu Vaishnava) to argue with?
     
  3. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    China Cat Sunflower

    Just as interesting is the ‘knower’; what is it that knows. :) It seams to me that knowing is an act of gathering information into the conscious sphere, where the intellect can deduce meaning. What happens when the knower ceases trying to gather info into that sphere, instead of knowing ‘things’ would it not just know I.e. non-things. Perhaps that is the only true knowledge and I would think it to be singular.

    bhaktajan

    Z,

    1. I don’t think so, no. I can understand the void or oneness/infinity as being only itself, which would appear to be absolute, however that things are manifest from there even the whole of creation [possibly], this means it has no hard edges -so to say, hence is not absolute. Think of it as like a train station, it is itself ‘absolutely’ a train station, but its function is of passengers and trains passing through all the time. In fact it is not even a train station unless it has that functionality.

    such is the poetic reality. [that reality is literally poetic] :)

    2. My fundamental basis is that nothing is absolute, no meaning nor thing. If it were it would imply a dualism that I don’t think can be that fundamental.

    3. Semantics. For there to be no absolute, you have to qualify the meaning of absolute which we cannot, thus there is no absolute and no ‘not absolute’ ~ for something to be not a something we have to first declare what something is.
     
     
  4. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    But is not your opinion [even if based on science] relative, and without absolute substantiation?

    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

    In regards to your opinion [which is a classical conclusion too]:

    Is it true to say that your opinion is absolutely relative?

    Is there a finite end to the totality of relativity?

    Relativity [matter/energy entoto] is absolute?

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    If there is NO absolute, then the (4) defects of the human condition (the conditioned soul) [as classified in yogic doctrine], namely: to make mistakes, to be illusioned, the cheating propensity, and, our senses are imperfect;

    and

    Similarly, synchronicity, serendipity, and even accrued Karma are all relative and therefore without redeeming value accept perpetual repetition of relative illusion —all are of illusory value, yes?
     
  5. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Is not the very existence of "nothing is absolute" an absolute maxim?

    That is why 'knowledge' is recieved from 'authority' through a disciplic succession inreagrds to any subject matter. A person does not self-manifest knowledge by magic.

    This seems to be an Absolute Maxim that you have pronounced here, no?

    ???.
    I have stated the the Absolute truth (God) is a persona; ergo, all impersonal states are intrinsically & invariably seeking out that Ultimate Persona, especially after much time and effort was expended seeking the impersonal self-gratification first ---So, this DECLARATION encompasses all relative concerns in the lights of the Ultimate Beholder ---then we can claim it as Not being.

    Whereas, you have claimed 'nothing inparticular' as absolute; and thus, later declare all is relative to . . . nothing; except, prehaps 'your self'.

    Comments welcomed.
     
  6. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Wait a minute!

    I presume you will re-state all is relative and not absolute.

    IOW, the laws of physics/civil obligations etc are all relative ---I agree.

    But then these relative principles are inescapable ---thus, an absolute paradigm.

    Absoluteness aside, we must adhere to all relative laws, absolutely.

    We can opt to escape from the relative status of existence . . . to go where?

    Are we imprisioned in an in-absolute relative existence with no absolute refuge?
     
  7. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    Opinions are but not everything is purely opinion or relative. If we did arrive at the conclusion that it is [even math etc?] then everything we think about god is also. The point is that if you are going to argue points about god the absolute, then another argument refutes it, then that argument is a better one ~ even if still relative.

    If god or ‘an authority’ delivers knowledge and it says 3x3=7, then we have to presume the message didn’t get through correctly, after all the message is interpreted and relative/subjective too! ;)

    A person can manifest knowledge by magic, sir paul McCartney once said that when writing the song called ‘yesterday’, he went to bed with a vague idea and woke up with the song in his head. This is how intuition and inspiration works with the divine, by it we share the poetic space. :)

    That there are no absolutes is the very reason we are not imprisoned. The ‘nothing in particular’ is not an absolute, its just a statement concerning the lack of absolutes.

    Lets get beyond the semantics; name anything at all that is absolute, any finite or infinite thing.
     
  8. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Consciousness is Absolute.

    Zero is Absolute.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    Below is from Lao Tsu's Tao te ching Aphorism #1 ---Is what it says absolute?
    IMO it is absolute [and that which is beyond what it speaks of can be revealed "as it is" only from "Above"; only from "Outside" ---if "it" was so magnaimous as to do so during our short life span] :


    The tao that can be told
    is not the eternal Tao
    The name that can be named
    is not the eternal Name.

    The unnamable is the eternally real.
    Naming is the origin
    of all particular things.

    Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
    Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

    Yet mystery and manifestations
    arise from the same source.
    This source is called darkness.

    Darkness within darkness.
    The gateway to all understanding.
     
  9. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    Is universal, all consciousnesses derive of the oneness ~ ever watched the silver spirits form out of the void in their millions!

    It’s a number and hence metaphoric.

    If it were absolute then it could be named. The whole idea of this meaning is that the tao cannot be pinned down in any way.

    - again the poetic reality. :)
     
  10. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    The Gita explains all this: The Knower/Doer -- The Knower of the Field -- The Field etc etc
     
  11. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Consciousness is Absolute.

    Zero is Absolute.

    AND

    DIMENSION(S)
     
  12. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Quote:
    Consciousness is Absolute.
    Is universal, all consciousnesses derive of the oneness ~ ever watched the silver spirits form out of the void in their millions!
    All Conscious & Non-Conscious derive from the 'reservior' of such energetic "Qualities".


    Quote:
    Zero is Absolute.
    It’s a number and hence metaphoric.

    Nonsense! My Statement is a 'technical' citation. It is not poetry. It is mechanical & percise. It is a maxim.


    Quote:
    The tao that can be told
    is not the eternal Tao
    If it were absolute then it could be named. The whole idea of this meaning is that the tao cannot be pinned down in any way.

    If it were absolute you could name it ---because a person told you so.

    The MIND OF THE PHILOSOPHER cannot be pinned IT down in any way ---unless a person told them so.


    - again the poetic reality. :)
    The Nature of sound and thought-communication systems and methods [and even language acquisition processes too] ---will lead the explorer to the human condition as above the bestial and toward the transcendent source of "Knowledge through Sound Transmission" ---which begins from the wellspring called in sanskrit, 'brahma-shabda' ~{at this writing/your reading is a mystery within mystery}.

    Poetry is the Sounds of the Jungle ---[in contrast with 'OM' chanted as a mantra for reaching transcendence] ---all peotry is brute grunts chirps and all unless it waxes sublime.

    sublimate it baby,
    Bhaktajan
     
  13. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Consciousness is Absolute.

    Zero is Absolute.

    AND

    DIMENSION(S)

    "DIMENSIONS" ---the existence or latent requisite principle of

    'DIMENSION' twarts and is the great foil of advaita philosophy!

    When all is declared as one dynamism and is seen as an emploding state --even encompassing the "Void (brahman, the field)" into one with any and all menifestations as false illusions ---still there is DIMENSIONS that lay transcendent to Oneness.

    Any Reply to "DIMENSIONS"?
     
  14. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    The poetic reality is such because ‘every landscape has its own vocabulary’ [one of my sayings :)], nothing has an absolute edge and when we attempt to define something to absoluteness, we find the idea merges with others or flips onto another level of understanding.
    I find this is also objectively true.

    What do you mean by 'dimension'? Because in druidry the transmigration principle takes one to any other dimension, there are no iron ceilings. the soul is free to move between worlds, it just has to know how.
     
  15. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    I now believe in dimensions ('Width, Length, and Depth')



    What I meant by "DIMENSIONS"? is the basic three that we are all, as created entities, are beholding to: "Width, Length, and Depth" --the '3-Dimensions'.

    No matter what state of stasis or mutating form energy may take ---even before there is any sort of manifestation ---or even when all variety is desolved and wiped away from history, where existence & non-existence are terminated to a pre-zero state before time began . . . we would still have dimensions ('Width, Length, and Depth') . . . yes, in a dormant state yet, dimensions never manifest, they are just there awaiting an architech to grace his 'inspiration' to take form.

    Irregardless of the design and function ---just like the blank page and white light and the uncarved block contain all the spectrum of the rainbow--- erase the rainbow, remove the Sun and Outer Space and vanquish it all, but still the Three Dimensions would selflessly wait until the creative pricinciple desided to enact something.

    Dimensions, as I am utilising the concept here refers to parameters that pre-date the most elementary level of existence ---upon which all possibility is encompassed.


    Again, by the term 'Dimensions' I am NOT refering the "Other Diemensions" as in the Lingo-banter of "Doctor Who", or, "Alice in Wonderland", or "Star-Trek-Science-Fiction" nor that of Quantum physics ----I just mean the three dimensions known as Width, length & depth.

    Thinking outside the box,
    Bhaktajan

    With Balaram to the right
    and
    Krishna to the Left
    running toward
    Shree Shree Param-atma-gee




    ~['Dimensions' REM: must consult the OED asap]~
     
  16. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    So you are saying that dimensions are pre-existent ~ fair enough, infinity is also its own dimension, this is why I asked about the space in which the absolute is. For me the meaning of ‘absolute’ contradicts ‘omni’, so how do you have a deity that is both.
     
  17. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    I don't know about that.:p

    Chris
     
  18. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    OK, thanks for the reply. I read all of that, but to refute would assume that I know something that I don't: namely that you are wrong. So I'm not sure how to reply. On the other side of it, I don't know that you are right either. None of it seems in any way compelling one way or another. But then again, what do I know...

    Chris
     
  19. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    much as i hate to intervene in this discussion, you are simply rehashing the midrashic argument for how abraham came to believe in G!D, which was "a man once walked past a palace and thought, how can a palace exist without presupposing a king - isn't the world the same?" now, that's fine if it works for you, but for anyone who thinks something *else* when they walk past the palace, it's still no good. in other words, the nursery room may be left as it is after the baby has grown up, or it may have been decorated for a baby who was stillborn, or that the parents were never able to achieve. in other words, the baby may not exist. so, in my opinion, this line of argument is not much of one. more to the point, much scientific work has been done on why things evolve as they do without the need for a personification. that, in my book, is kind of the point about G!D; you're never going to be able to "prove" the existence of the Divine and there are excellent philosophical reasons why that is true, most of which, to my mind, revolve around the unpleasant behaviour of those who think that they can prove that they are right.

    judaism, on the other hand, realises that these things are *belief*-based and allows for, as douglas adams puts it, "rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty". i do not see how these can be eliminated and, more to the point, i can see excellent reasons not to try. have you ever tried dealing with someone with no religious doubt or uncertainty? no thank you very much.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  20. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    I cannot. :)
    Weather or not there are areas of uncertainty [ a good ideal Imho], belief needs a basis or its just vacuous. If we can ascertain certain areas philosophically or scientifically, then we should do so, it doesn’t do to just give up or ignore good arguments.
     

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