morality within evolution

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by juantoo3, Jul 22, 2004.

  1. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Thomas, not sure of your meaning in that last point. Certainly WW1 did a huge amount of good for enabling women. The reason for that enablement was because all the men were at war and women had to start taking on jobs that were exclusively for men before the war. Once that enablement was established there was no turning back. Or was that your point?

    Wil, it will be a long, long time before there is an end to slavery. Slavery has existed from the earliest times to the present day. Different forms of slavery certainly, but slavery by any other name… Juan mentioned debt as one form of slavery, Thomas mentioned illegal immigrants as another. In both those cases the slavery is in the form of debt one can never rise out of. There is, unfortunately, plenty of people who are slaves in the traditional sense of the word. This too is common in so called first world countries, as well as just about everywhere on the rest of the planet.
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Yes.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Yes the women took over when the men went to war....as they always did...in every war since the beginning of time it appears....until the men came back...and then they were immediately barefoot and pregnant again and kicked back out of the factories and offices..

    and yes our perception of what is slavery changes....working for wages for instance... but again...slavery will always be, until it becomes economically unnecessary.... (even with all its name changes)
     
  4. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Not to seem crass, but what does any of this have to do with the development of morality in an evolutionary context?
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I think as humans we have stifled our human evolution....we are becoming androids, technology (washing machines, smart phones, wearable tech) is becoming part of us...and our current evolution.
     
  6. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Nothing actually. Threads do tend to drift off into unrelated stuff. Best bet to get back on track is to rephrase the original question. Or add something back on topic. Juan, if you will do the honors?
     
  7. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    OK, since I seem to be the one asking the majority of the questions anyway...Why does religion exist universally around the world in prehistoric antiquity, predating even agriculture and writing? Why does there seem to be a consistent and quite similar religious paradigm spanning 30K years or more throughout the known range of humanity during that time? Considering if G!d indeed does not exist, why did *all* of prehistoric humanity chase after some elusive "something" they intuited instinctively?
     
  8. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    This is a question I also ponder. There is no doubting that humans seem programmed to develop religions. I'll leave whether there are actually any Gods behind them out of the picture for now. Gods or no Gods, humans seem to need religion. It is a conundrum for me as I am one of the few exceptions; I have no need for religion in my life. I get along through the good times and the bad just fine on my own. So it is difficult for me to understand this need that the majority of the people around me seem to have.

    There was a fascinating book written some years ago by by Julian Jaynes, who presented an idea in his 1976 book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, wherein he made the case that a bicameral mentality came to be the normal and ubiquitous state of the human mind until as recently as 3000 years ago.

    Jaynes uses governmental bicameralism as a metaphor to describe a mental state in which the experiences and memories of the right hemisphere of the brain are transmitted to the left hemisphere via auditory hallucinations. Essentially the two hemispheres of the human brain were not integrated, but separate entities. The messages the right side of the brain sent to the left was perceived by ancient man as if these messages were actually being transmitted to them from outside of the self. That these messages were from Gods was the logical conclusion to these people as they had no concept of where else these messages could be coming from.

    That is a very short and fast simplification of this groundbreaking work. If you are not aware of it, I strongly recommend getting a hold of a copy. Now I am not saying Jaynes is correct or not. Just that it is a fascinating theory that could explain the answer to the question Juan posted.

    The down side to the theory is that it is based on non verifiable evidence; no one has found a way to test the theory to my knowledge.

    http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php
     
  9. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    OK. Not to seem dismissive, but I agree the concept seems like a bit of a reach. I think I've heard the gist of what you are saying being called "self-talk," what we say to ourselves in our minds. But I think that would be an enormous stretch to say that early humanity drew upon that to justify and sustain a search for the Divine. I would also point out that it would demand an existing language to function, without which it would of necessity be conducted in images, as that is how we catalogue and associate memories and manipulate them in our minds. Some of that was lost in a lot of people as they gained mastery of symbolic language, but there are people who still are able to juggle images in their minds quite freely. (There's even an aptitude test for it)

    Moreover, it doesn't begin to touch on the lengths early humanity went in that search. I was just over a bit of my old research here digging up some old threads, and came across some work pointing to caves, and why people would go so deeply into them, all the while with their psyche screaming "get the hell out of here, you fool!" My paraphrase, of course, but the point being is that it was counter-intuitive to go as deeply into the caves as they did to conduct the ceremonies that they did.

    Check here:
    http://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/4598/page-3
    post 57
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2015
  10. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I found this odd. You equate modern religiosity with with ancient and then exclude yourself from this norm.
    I thought you would agree that atheism (or comparable) is a social phenomenon tied to the local culture and is thus more or less prevalent depending on the culture. Thus ones view on religion isn't inherent in the person from birth but conditioned into the person just as certain religious views are.
    In this way you are only separate from the norm as a product of social conditioning. And if we see modern religiosity as partly or even mostly conditioning than they must be separate from ancient religiosity...unless the ancients where conditioned by gods!

    Sorry for the semi-of topic, I'm trying to figure the advocate out.
     
  11. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Tea I would be glad to respond - I don't have an idea of what you just said! You touched on Deism, atheism, conditioning, and ancient gods. A lot to throw out there in such a brief post, and I don't understand how it all comes together. Could you rephrase?

    The only part that I think I get is the beginning. Where Juan commented that Deism is much like ancient Animism and I agreed with that. You then feel I excluded myself from what I had just said I agreed with. If this is a reasonable interpretation of what you said the answer is this. Something I have mentioned a couple of times in passing. Religions 'for me' are more compatible for me as philosophies. I like the Deistic philosophical concept that we are all a part of the whole; that there is nothing separate in the universe. Don't know if that helps your understanding. Hope so!
     
  12. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I'll sent you something privately when I've fleshed out my question and statement, no need to bother others with my conundrum.
     
  13. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Something about this doesn't make sense to me. I can grant perhaps you aren't familiar enough to speak conversantly, but are the two hemispheres divided in other simians? I know I don't know brain anatomy well enough to form an instant conclusion, but I'm thinking "not." If they are, then this argument has something to stand on. If not, it wouldn't make any sense to believe human brains were separated only to regroup.

    Just a few minutes research shows the part of the brain used to bridge between the two hemispheres is the corpus calosum (sp?).

    http://www.ask.com/science/happens-...d=dirN&ap=google.com&o=0&qo=boostResultOnSERP

    Wasn't able directly to determine if other simian brains have this, but it appears Porpoises and other Cetaceans do...so that implies that simians probably do as well.

    The link points to what happens when the corpus calosum is damaged, and auditory hallucinations aren't on the list of aftereffects.

    Just confirmed with a Neurologist that other simians do indeed have a corpus calosum, and also confirmed that damage to or loss of a corpus calosum would not cause auditory hallucinations. That is sufficient for me to call Mr.(?) Jaynes hypothesis into question.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Thank you. Would you consider posting a brief synopsis for discussion here?
     
  15. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    bump for exposure
     

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