does magick work?
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bob x
Well-Known Member
There is always a problem with selective memory here: of course we remember weird coincidences that happened, and don't remember the coincidences that didn't happen! I passed a girl on the street today who WASN'T the girl who sat in front of me in 3rd grade that I haven't seen since...
bgruagach
eclectic Wiccan
Like with any scientific experiment is all comes down to careful definition of one's terms, the circumstances and methods of the test, and what constitutes a success or failure.
The question "What is magick?" is one of the perennial debates among those who practice magick. It's not exactly a clearly answered question itself. But once you've established the grounds for doing a scientific test you can proceed to actually testing it out... for that specific definition of magick.
For instance if I define using herbal remedies along with a spoken prayer as "doing magick" then it can definitely be tested. Does it work better than a placebo in a double-blind test? If it does, then it's effective.
The question "What is magick?" is one of the perennial debates among those who practice magick. It's not exactly a clearly answered question itself. But once you've established the grounds for doing a scientific test you can proceed to actually testing it out... for that specific definition of magick.
For instance if I define using herbal remedies along with a spoken prayer as "doing magick" then it can definitely be tested. Does it work better than a placebo in a double-blind test? If it does, then it's effective.
Etu Malku
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Indeed this comes down to the definition of Magick ('K' to differentiate from stage magic).
Although old, James Frazer’s definition of magic as an attempt to control the supernatural forces, in contrast to submitting to them in religion, has shown itself to be very enduring.
Crowley's definition seems to be the most accepted in the Occult community "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will".
Black Magick is where the magician explores the hidden and unknown, thus dark, aspects of existence and works with the transforming forces of chaos, whereas other types of Magick is of a more religious nature and works with the existing structures and the preserving forces of cosmos.
The process can be seen in three principles:
-The first principle can also be understood as visualization, meaning that the magician focuses his/her mind and will on something to achieve.
-The second principle, power, builds on the first principle. The prospect is that the magician gains knowledge of the world, real knowledge of the whole of existence while ‘wearing a pair of nondistorting spectacles’. The magician must, however, use a part of his/her own power or energy in order to gain access to the unlimited energy outside the glass cover, and the unlimited energy and power inside himself as well. He uses his power and the limited power/energy in the glass cover in order to see the “other side”. By seeing this “other side”, the magician is thought to gain access to the energy outside, and can use this energy to gain better and deeper insight, as well as more power to do so.
-The third principle, action, is the finalizing aspect of the three principles. The magician has a vision, insight into how he or she wants something to be, as well as insight into the true state of reality. Through knowledge of the real the magician has gained power and has further multiplied this power in accessing the world outside our limited perception. The final stage of magic is to act out the changes one wishes to occur.
So in essence it is most likely impossible to recite a few cool Enochian Words of Power and have something happen immediately in the material World. True Magick takes place in a more gradual pace and the desired outcome is 'nudged' by the Magician's Will in the physical World.
But of course I didn't answer the OP's question!
Although old, James Frazer’s definition of magic as an attempt to control the supernatural forces, in contrast to submitting to them in religion, has shown itself to be very enduring.
Crowley's definition seems to be the most accepted in the Occult community "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will".
Black Magick is where the magician explores the hidden and unknown, thus dark, aspects of existence and works with the transforming forces of chaos, whereas other types of Magick is of a more religious nature and works with the existing structures and the preserving forces of cosmos.
The process can be seen in three principles:
-The first principle can also be understood as visualization, meaning that the magician focuses his/her mind and will on something to achieve.
-The second principle, power, builds on the first principle. The prospect is that the magician gains knowledge of the world, real knowledge of the whole of existence while ‘wearing a pair of nondistorting spectacles’. The magician must, however, use a part of his/her own power or energy in order to gain access to the unlimited energy outside the glass cover, and the unlimited energy and power inside himself as well. He uses his power and the limited power/energy in the glass cover in order to see the “other side”. By seeing this “other side”, the magician is thought to gain access to the energy outside, and can use this energy to gain better and deeper insight, as well as more power to do so.
-The third principle, action, is the finalizing aspect of the three principles. The magician has a vision, insight into how he or she wants something to be, as well as insight into the true state of reality. Through knowledge of the real the magician has gained power and has further multiplied this power in accessing the world outside our limited perception. The final stage of magic is to act out the changes one wishes to occur.
So in essence it is most likely impossible to recite a few cool Enochian Words of Power and have something happen immediately in the material World. True Magick takes place in a more gradual pace and the desired outcome is 'nudged' by the Magician's Will in the physical World.
But of course I didn't answer the OP's question!
A real evidence as to a very real type of Magick is with the advertising agencies and can be experienced every day.
Nice answer...
Isn't that it all?
The power of the human mind to influence the perception of another human mind to make a decision....a decision that they either think is their own....or one that they attribute to belief....but surely not of some sort of coercion by those using NLP or simply feeding their ego...surely not that.
And that being said....does the 'k' matter? is there a difference? Really a difference, or simply a nuance in relation to intent?
Etu Malku
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Dream
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So just because its not common knowledge, that doesn't prove that quick & easy magik doesn't exist. I know this: that if I knew something like that I would keep it to myself and my family, probably. If I really wanted to find quick and easy magik, I'd fake it until I attracted someone who already had it. So that I could get it.Etu Malku said:People always seem a little disappointed when they find out that there really isn't any 'quick' and easy Magikrolleyes
Etu Malku
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Most people never get to the stage where they create real magik, it requires discipline, introversion and commitment, those that truly do, usually don't make it public. The process can be so involved in order to achieve results that most abandon it long before a single result happens.
Not to mention that even seasoned Magi fail more so than succeed.
Of course there are various 'shades' of Magik and difficulty accordingly.
H
Hermes
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Magic works but not the way most people think. I just posted on this here.
Just as a final note. Most Quabbalists are theorists, as most esoteric philosophers. Magic is harder than the DVD the Secret portrays it, but far more rewarding. It is a practice versus theory and just the confirmation of the existence of the Divine Providence is worth the effort.
P.S. I use the work magical thinking as you do most of it mentally...
Just as a final note. Most Quabbalists are theorists, as most esoteric philosophers. Magic is harder than the DVD the Secret portrays it, but far more rewarding. It is a practice versus theory and just the confirmation of the existence of the Divine Providence is worth the effort.
P.S. I use the work magical thinking as you do most of it mentally...