The truth about Trinity

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Sensei, May 22, 2011.

  1. Sensei

    Sensei Interfaith Forums

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    The early christians did not believe in the Trinity. According to history, In year 325 A.D the trinity was establish in the Council of Nicea. This means that the Trinity was established 325 years after Jesus died. Therefore the trinity was not approved by God. and It was not approved by Jesus (because Jesus didn’t live while the trinity was established). The word trinity does not exist in the bible, and the formulation of the Trinity is not mentioned in the bible neither. Therefore trinity is based on falsehood and has nothing to do with the original teachings of christianity. And it is obvious that christianity has become distorted.

    Most christians believe that Jesus was God’s son. If Jesus was God’s son, then when does he become God? Because if someone is a son, then he one day must become a father. As we can see, the belief that Jesus was the son of God, is illogical and it is based on falsehood. God can not have a son. God is not a human being. Only a human being can have a son. If God had a son, then it would exist two Gods. And that would be illogical. Therefore, when Jesus is described as God’s son in the bible, it should not be understood literally. The word son, in the bible, most likely have a symbolic meaning. In the bible, other persons are also described as the sons of God. For example, David is described as the Son of God in the bible (See Psalms 2:7).

    Many christians even go as far claiming that Jesus was God. They claim that Jesus was God reincarnated. If Jesus was God, then why did christians believe that he died? As we know, God is immortal. But human beings die. So since Jesus died he could not have been immortal. Ergo, Jesus was not God. If Jesus was God, then why did he prayed to God? Does a god need to pray to a god? That would be completely illogical and absurd. The reason why Jesus prayed to God, was because he was a human being and needed help and support from God. In the bible, it says that Jesus prayed to God (see Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42, Matthew 26:44 and Luke 5:16).
    There is not a single verse in the bible, where it says that Jesus is God. The christians who claim that Jesus is God, has misunderstood the whole christian religion. And they have ignored the original teachings of christianity. All messengers that came before Jesus were humans. So it makes no sense when people claim that Jesus was more than a human. Noah, Abraham, Jakob, Isak, Josef, Moses, and Muhammed were only humans. So Jesus was just a human, just like all of the other messengers.
    Many people wonder when the doctrine of the Trinity began for the first time in our history. There were many doctrines of the Trinity in the past. But most likely the doctrine of a trinity was established for the first time in ancient Babylon. According to historians, this civilization flourished around 5000 years ago. Here is a list of the trinity gods of different religions:

    Babylon: King, Prince and Queen.
    Egyptian religion: Osiris, Horus and Isis.
    Indian religion: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
    Phoenician: Baal, Ashtoreth and Tammuz.
    Greek religion: Zeus, Apollo and Hera.
    Roman religion: Jupiter, Mars and Venus.
    Christianity: The Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit.

    The Trinity is a pagan doctrine taken from other religions, which became a part of Christianity. Trinity does not belong to the original teachings of Christianity. Those who established the Trinity in the Council of Nicaea 325 A.D were most likely inspired by pagan religions. As i mentioned earlier, the Trinity was established 325 years after Jesus died. Therefore the trinity was not approved by God. And It was not approved by Jesus (because Jesus didn’t live when the doctrine trinity was established).
     
  2. islamicway

    islamicway New Member

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    You raise some excellent points. I've seen Christians talk about how trinity is not pagan and somehow the complete opposite (dividing God up isn't seen as pagan to them), and how Jesus being God's son is not pagan either. But its not strict monotheism. In fact, it is not really monotheism. (you shall not have false Gods etc)

    You make good points on how the Bible is not clear on the Christian's beliefs itself and how this causes confusion.

    Thanks for sharing.
     
  3. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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  4. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    So ink and reading skills can unite all people together in perfect agreement?

    You are tiny, tiny; and so am I. Think about how far away you are from North Carolina in the USA, and count the steps from your house to mine. "No," you will think, "I will not bother to count that high and do not have your address anyway. It would take many days just to count them, and what would be accomplished by such a useless action? Only God knows that sort of thing!" To God it is not a useless action, but to you it is. It proves that to you I'm nothing, but God knows who I am and also has counted how many steps there are to get to my house from yours or any other. As many steps as there are between our two doors, there are many more times that in people who believe in the Trinity; and God knows who they are and where. You don't. Don't even pretend that you actually care enough that you would be a valid judge of who is right or wrong. It is absurd.
     
  5. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Hmm. *breaks out calculator and brings up mapquest**

    Approximately 7,962,690 of my steps. (Based upon a balance between my best guestimation, speculation, intuition, and calculation.) Of course, I'd prolly get lost along the way, so it would have to be at least 8 million steps. Then again, I might wind up at the Thunder Road marathon, so would have to add at least another 73,779 steps to the already marathon trek. :confused:
    Oh yeah, only God knows how many distractions I'd get trying to accomplish the task! :eek: But if it's important to God, it's important to me.
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    That's why the commentary of Tradition is vital for understanding the text. Without that, you're in the dark, really.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  7. whacky43

    whacky43 passerby

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    First, let me start off by saying that the message you are trying to get across here is Truth. The trinity doctrine as it is taught in the church is but one of a very long list of false teachings puked out all the blind clergy standing on the pulpits every Sunday. Nearly every doctrine of the Abrahamic Faiths are teachings rooted in gross misinformation (a good part on purpose), and ignorant interpretation. The lies taught by the Pharisees and scribes of the day begin in the first chapter of Genesis, and continue through the last chapter of Revelation. But, I'll stick to the doctrine of trinity here. Although one thing you mentioned as evidence is completely accurate, there are verses in the Bible that are interpreted to imply both the idea of trinity, and Jesus' equality with Providence Most High, commonly and quite falsely referred to as God the Father, or Yahweh, Jehovah, or any other "name" you wish to subscribe. I will quote you.

    The basis for the notion of trinity and Jesus' equality and deity rest on things others wrote and then misinterpreted, and one thing Jesus' said.
    Here they are.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.


    Christians are taught that Jesus the man is the one here called "the Word". And, by the Word being synonymous with Jesus the man indicates that He was indeed God incarnate. I'll explain this misinterpretation shortly. Let's move on to the notion of trinity, which is quite laughable in the sense that it is literally an "all boys club", all three separate but equal entities referred to as male. What the heck happened to Mom? Believe me, she is working Her celestial butt off down here, and doesn't get a lick of credit, or even recognition from the ignorant masses claiming to be "filled with Holy Ghost".
    Sorry, I promised myself I wouldn't rant, so I digress.


    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    So, there is your scriptural proof that Jesus, the self-proclaimed "Son of man" (89 times in the NT), is also "the Word", who "became flesh", and sits among a threesome of equal entities known as the "Holy Trinity".

    Ok, there you have it. The Bible does say that Jesus is God, part of a threefold entity. Right? Relax, your statement is still True, and for the following reasons.

    Theses passages were not things said by Jesus, they were things written by others, and then misinterpreted by very ignorant and blind men as being references to Jesus. So, to disprove these notions we always need evidence, and I always get mine straight from the horses mouth, so let's see what Jesus had to say concerning this matter.

    A little disclaimer here however. We must include sayings of Jesus that exist outside of the bastardized canon, because, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of things Jesus said that were not deemed "worthy" to include by the "church fathers". They actually went as far as to attempt to not to try and "hide" them as much as they attempted to literally "destroy" them. The councils of Nicea and Trent were not exactly meetings of men attempting to spread the whole "Truth" to the masses, they were creating a "religion" that would benefit themselves and the Empire monetarily. Money, power, and control were the motives, so, they chose to include only the words that would keep the Truth a mystery, and the stories were "borrowed" to make this new religion comparable to other popular "pagan" religions of the day. Jesus referred to it as "hidden manna".


    Jesus said: Recognize what is before you, and what is hidden from you will be revealed to you; for there is nothing hidden that will not be made manifest.
    "Understand what is in front of your face, and then what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you." (Gospel of Thomas)

    I'll move on now. And, the evidence comes from the man who referred to Himself as "the Way, the Truth, and the Life", but never once did He refer to Himself as "the Word". Here is what He said about the notion of trinity.

    Jesus said, "Where there are three, they are without god, and where there is but a single one I say that I am with him."' (Gospel of Thomas #30)

    The Gospel of Thomas is such a great read. It consists of a mere 114 sayings of Jesus with no stories, just things Jesus said. Imagine that a Gospel of this magnitude would not be worthy enough to be included in the manuscript known as the one and only True Word of God to billions of people around the world today. There are quite a few more writings containing well more of His words than are included in the four redundant gospels of the canon, and I thank Providence for disclosing all the "hidden manna" to me, as well as the little "gift" I received from the True Holy Spirit (who actually is the Word), called interpretation. Let's address this.

    Understand this. The "Word" that Christians believe was the physical Jesus is not a person at all. The "Word that was both "with God and is God" is Spirit, part of the "two or one" that Jesus alludes to. More specifically, it is the True "Holy Spirit", and She is very feminine in nature. She is part of the "fullness" of Providence that Jesus the Christ possessed as He was made "whole" in the very symbolic baptism story. Providence inspired John to call Her the "Word" in the sense that if we wanted to name Her, we should use a "Word". The Word is Wisdom, and is the very Holy Spirit of the Divine Feminine. She existed from the beginning with the one Jesus called His Father, who existed in Jesus as well. Call Him "Truth". The True Spirit of Providence is very androgynous in nature, the duality of unity and very unnameable. So, Providence lets "those with ears" know that if we want to name Them, call Them Truth/Wisdom. She is also the "Life" Jesus referred to when He said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life", because He possessed the twofold Spirit of Providence, which was the personification of Truth and Wisdom. Christians have a really bad habit of worshiping the stories, and ignoring the Words of man they claim to be the savior of all mankind. A God-man who walked around performing magic tricks not unlike a "sorcerer", who then became a literal "human sacrifice", so that man could now an "out" to atone for all the evil crap he does, says or thinks. Who in the world worships magic and performs human sacrifice. Christians do, they call them devil worshipers. Christians and Jews had better wake up, and open their eyes, and have "ears to hear", because their scriptures are far from "infallible", "inerrant containing no errors or contradictions", or "written by the very finger of God". They had best pay attention to Jesus' Words and stop relying on Paul's, or the various Johns, Luke's or any others, because Jesus was serious when He said, "pick up YOUR OWN cross, and follow after ME, and continue in MY Word".

    I got way off track here, but, I do want to post some things Jesus said concerning the accuracy of scripture, as well as some other important things that refute many of the false teachings that many people place their very existence.

    Concerning the Old Testament.

    Jesus said, "Seek not the law in your Scriptures for the law is life, whereas the Scripture is dead. I tell you truly Moses received not his laws from God as writing but through the living word. The law is living word for living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life to the law is the law written, for I tell you truly all living things are nearer to God than the Scripture which is without life. I tell you truly that the Scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in his works? And wherefore do you study the dead Scriptures which are from the hands of men? (Gospel of Peace)

    Concerning even the Words He is quoted as saying and teaching in the NT

    "If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself" (John 7:17).
    So, even if Jesus were to have said that He was God, equal to God, or the "only begotten Son of God", He left us with a disclaimer. Why would Jesus say this if He believed in the doctrine of biblical inerrancy, as nearly all Christians do? Why would He call the OT "dead scriptures written from the hands of men" if He believed as Christians do that the Bible was written by "the very finger of God"?
    John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

    Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good (alone), save one, that is, God.


    Matt 15:7-9 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    In closing might I say Sensei that what you posted is Truth. More people should be like you, earnestly seeking Truth and not buying all the mixed up and very bitter wine served up by the false teachers of the day. I would recommend that when you do refute any false doctrine or teaching, try to avoid using your own words as evidence. Let Jesus do the talking, and use the Word as evidence. The Bible refutes nearly every doctrine or dogma taught in the various "nations" of the Abrahamic faiths. But, stick to the Words of Jesus, and find them all, because the Bible alone is an unsolvable mystery, and until you gain the gift of the Holy Spirit of the Mother, which is Wisdom, you can never gain the Truth. She is inside you just waiting to lead you to the understanding of Truth, which is the Father. Jesus possessed the wholeness of the Spirit, and became the "Christ", which literally means "anointed one". Billions of people are taught that salvation is attained by joining a church and becoming a Christian. True salvation a.k.a Spiritual Awakening, Enlightenment, God-realization is achieved not by becoming a Christian, but rather become a Christ. it is an unbelievable cosmic experience. I know because I had this experience some 9 years ago.


    Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him." Gospel of Thomas 108.


    But Jesus said, "No, but I shall go to the place from whence I came. If you wish to come with me, come!"
    They all answered and said, "If you bid us, we come."
    He said, "Verily I say unto you, no one will ever enter the kingdom of heaven at my bidding, but (only) because you yourselves are full. (The Apocryphon of John)




    And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come behind me, cannot be my disciple.
    And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.


    Become better than I; make yourselves like the son of the Holy Spirit." (Secret Book of James)


    "Be zealous to be saved without being urged. Rather, be ready on your own and, if possible, go before me. For thus the Father will love you.

    Jesus never said that He was the Savior of all mankind, He said things like.


    Matthew 11:19

    John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


    John 12:47-48 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    Here is one or two last quotes concerning "the Word".


    "Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it. (Secret Book of James)
    "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet Wisdom is justified of her deeds."

    Sorry I ranted so long, I cannot stop myself sometimes. I am blessed with this little "gift" I received, and have a lot to say. Whether people choose to believe it or not it is up to them. I say nothing, however, that has not been said before by the One Christians claim to know so well.

    Matt 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Peace

    steve eden
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    All Scripture was written by others, so by your argument not one single word of Scripture is reliable, it could all be false.

    Check the Jesus Seminar if that's the argument you want to make ... it all boils down to opinion.

    Furthermore, by the same token, everything you know, and I know you believe it in all good faith, might equally be a misinterpretation on your part.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  9. whacky43

    whacky43 passerby

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    By all rights it should be all false. However, do you really think Providence hates us that much. I thank Them that They Love us enough to send us some "good knowledge" mixed in with all the "evil knowledge". The good knowledge is scattered all over the globe in every religion, and as for the Bible, They sent it "last" in the form of the Word of Jesus the Christ(Anointed One). And, thank Them that They saw to it that many, many of the Words were prevented from being destroyed by the so-called "holy church". It is called "hidden manna" for a reason.

    Don't need to. I have toiled as hard, if not harder than any of the so-called scholars sitting on that panel.

    Could be, but, I doubt it. True Enlightenment is an utterly bizarre and cosmic experience. It also means the end of "faith", and the beginning of "knowing". And, if you read closely, you will see that everything I said simply reiterates the Words of the man who possessed the Spirit called "the Word", who was with God and is God. Her name is the Word, and that is called Wisdom, and She is resting inside you and everyone and would Love nothing more than to guide you to the "Truth that sets you free", who is the One Jesus called "My Father". True salvation is free only in the sense that it costs no money, and, those who believe it requires no "works" are being misled. "Many are called, but few are chosen". Personally, it is not something I asked for, prayed for, or meditated. I was and am not a church goer, the experience I have been through simply happened, and for reasons that I still cannot comprehend or explain. But, I can say with certainty that the things I communicate are not my opinions, and if you feel they are misinterpretations, that is entirely up to you. I simply relay the messages that have been sent here already through many messengers.

    I will add quickly that being chosen to become a messenger is not much fun. It means leading a life of loneliness, solitude, and a life of frustration and misery. I would not wish it on anyone. It is both a blessing and a curse. My solace rests in the fact that I know that this is my last "trip" here to this hellhole, as I have been here from the beginning.(three days and three nights or 6000 years). If I'm not going home after this lifetime, I am going to kick the crap out of someone.....:)
    peace

    steve eden


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  10. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    You tell me ... according to you, millions have been led astray until you came along. I don't think it's a case of hate. If you're right, then Providence is very feeble.

    But now, if we can't trust the testimony of those who were there with Him, who can we trust? If we can't trust the sacra doctrina of the world, why should we trust you?

    That may be so, but I doubt it very much, from your testimony ... and the scholars I follow are way, way more informed and insightful than those of the JS ...

    But you're telling me I can't trust the words you're reiterating ... so you're rather defeating yourself, it seems to me.

    Do you understand the Liturgy?

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  11. whacky43

    whacky43 passerby

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    Not until I came along. Many others have said the same things I say. My words are far from original.

    You should not trust me, it is up to every individual to seek out and find the Truth/Wisdom for themselves. I never said that we could not trust the sacra doctrina of the world completely. Very much is Truth, and if one is fortunate enough to attain True enlightenment, then discerning the Truth becomes much easier. So, don't believe me, as that is not my job. And, very few do believe what I write, so don't feel alone. It is up to you to find your own salvation, if you will.

    I would recommend that the only "scholar" you should follow is yourself. This is what is referred to as being "born anew", and is an "emptying" process rather than a "filling" one.

    Gospel of Thomas 29. Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels. Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."

    Jesus said, "Become better than I; make yourselves like the son of the Holy Spirit." (Secret Book of James)


    But Jesus said, "No, but I shall go to the place from whence I came. If you wish to come with me, come!"
    They all answered and said, "If you bid us, we come."
    He said, "Verily I say unto you, no one will ever enter the kingdom of heaven at my bidding, but (only) because you yourselves are full. (The Apocryphon of John)


    These Words of Jesus are reliable, whether you choose to believe them is up to you. The Holy Spirit exists in all of us, and can guide you much better than any scholar. Seek Her out, and She will lead you to the Truth through the Words of Jesus and others, and when ready, you can be ready to receive what Hindus call "kundalini", or Enlightenment if you prefer.


    Sure you can, but, again I don' t expect you to, nor is that my purpose. I am only defeating myself in the sense the the Words fall on deaf ears. I personally believe that nearly all of the Words of Jesus are True, and I question but a few, a large portion of the ones man has turned into the doctrine of "eternal damnation".


    Do you understand the Liturgy?
    yes I do.

    peace
     
  12. Sensei

    Sensei Interfaith Forums

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    Your welcome :)
     
  13. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    "love is a veil between the lover and beloved"

    beloved = father, lover = son, love = holy spirit

    1 Corinthians 12:27 hints at the meaning here, as does 1 John 4:8.

    There is also this interesting parable of Jesus:

    "Jesus said to them: when you make the two one,
    and when you make the inner as the outer
    and the outer as the inner, and the above as the below, and
    When you make the male and the female into a single one,
    so that the male will not be male and the female not be female,
    then shall you enter the kingdom."


    If you comprehend this post, you will be baptized by fire, you will understand what is meant by "I tell you the truth, some of you here will not taste death before you enter the Kingdom of God". This is the whole teaching of Christ, this is the reality of Saints such as Francis of Assasi and Meister Eckhart.

    If you do not comprehend it, please ignore this post.
     
  14. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Whacky: I could pick part your statements directly from the Bible there, but the quotes from Gospel of Thomas are beautiful so I feel no need. Your quote from James is curious though, I don't think many modern Christians will appreciate that... or the John quote for that matter :p

    They are really beautiful if you approach them openly, but Christians aren't known for this quality... lol
     
  15. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    It IS all false if you never realize, never experience it for yourself. If you just look at the rabbit hole, you never understand the depths of religion truly. Words simply cannot express it succinctly...

    The ONLY way to know with a certainty is this experience, otherwise it is all faith, a belief not founded on fact.

    Of course, the Bible said this ignorance is a blessing, so who am I to question you?
     
  16. whacky43

    whacky43 passerby

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    Sorry, didn't see this until now. Jesus did say a lot of things that Christians cannot seem to grasp. You're right, I get a lot of hate replies from Christians who don't 'appreciate' what I post.

    The Gospel of Thomas is the best kept secret in all of Christendom. Imagine, 114 sayings of Jesus with no stories, and no hocus-pocus. Simply 114 things Jesus said. And, it wasn't 'worthy' enough to put in the canon. What a "holy" church that put that thing together. Oh well.

    peace


    steve
     
  17. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Trinity... hmmm interesting concept, but as old as the world. It is not unique to Christianity. Was Jesus divine? I personally do not believe so, and some of my reasons are:

    1) Adam had no human parents, yet we all understand that he was not divine--just a human. Yet, Jesus had one human parent, and somehow he was raised to a 'divine' status.
    2) Jesus prays to God. Why? If he is divine, why does he need someone else's help?
    3) Jesus speaks of God as separate from himself, such as: "“But from the beginning of the creation God made them males and females, ..." He does not state 'I made them males and females' which would be a logical statement if he were divine.
    4) Can God be unclean? God says: “how can he be clean that is born of a woman?–(Job 25:4). So, Jesus was not clean/pure like God, therefore he was not divine.
    5) Jesus said “…I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He sent me”–(John 8:42. This statement by Jesus clearly and conclusively shows that Jesus is NOT God and could NOT be God!). That Jesus “proceeded forth and came from God” is not restricted to Jesus. Everything in creation “proceeded forth and came from God,” from light to the heavens and earth and all vegetation and creatures–(Gen. 1:1-31; 2:1-25); and God said to the prophet Jeremiah: BEFOREI formed thee in the belly I knew thee…”–(Jer. 1:5). Everyone of us “proceeded forth and came from God.” Everything –past, present, and future– exists in the knowledge of God: this is what makes Him Omniscient. (As already noted; whereas Luke 1:35 states that Jesus shall be “called” “SON” of God, Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 state that Jesus is named Emmanuel, i.e.GOD” with us.” Clearly, Jesus could not be “SON” of God and yet be GOD and yet “proceeded FROM GOD"!)
    6) If Jesus was God because he said “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (though he also said “I am the root and the offspring of David”–(Rev. 22:13, 16); then Melchisedec also must be God–and even greater then Jesus as Jesus had a mother at least–for Melchisedec was “Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually”–(Hebrews 7:1, 3).
    7) If the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one, Elisabeth could not be filled with the Holy Ghost as the Holy Ghost was in Mary’s womb, and was also with Zaccharias–(Luke 1:41-43, 67).
    8) If Jesus was God, God would have led himself into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil–(Matt. 4:1).
    9) If Jesus was God he would have the attributes of God, such as “Omniscience” and “Omnipotence” and Omnipresence which he clearly had not.
    10) God said that Jesus is His son–(Matt. 3:17; Heb. 5:5), Jesus could not be God; a person cannot be both himself and his son.
    11) If the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one, when the Son was killed all three of them died; and as all three died, Jesus could not have been resurrected because the dead cannot resurrect itself. Since all three died the universe is without a God (?).
    12) Jesus made it clear that he is not God when he says (Matt. 19:17; Mark 10:18): “Why callest thou me good? there is NONEgood but one, that is GOD.” Jesus not only denies that he is God, he also denies that he is good.

     
  18. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Sorry about the red color. I agree with all of the statements I mentioned in my post. But, I must admit that I did paste copy them from my computer--I did not intend to offend.

    We, Muslims/Jews/Christians, will never agree on our understanding of God. At least, that is what my religion teaches me. Therefore, I can only comment here what I personally believe in regards to Trinity. I do not expect Christians or others to agree with me.
     
  19. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Sensei,

    Actually there are several existant versions of Chrisianity which reject the trinity. Several Oriental Orthodox (most notably the Ethiopean Church) groups have never accepted the trinity. Quakers (at least how I read the Fox, Naylor and Barclay) had a distinctly non-trinitatian origin. Ditto Unitarians, Universalists, Unity.

    One need not believe in "the can of 3-in-1 oil". Nor does one have to make Christ Jesus human only (Ethiopeans and and Quakers proove this). Nor does one have to put scripture (the written word of man inspired by the Creator) on a pedistal as co-equal with Creator, Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit; this is lmost exclusively a Protestant creation.

    I like to think that the trinity, like christmas trees, is a construct lifted from older religions to sell the new wine.

    Pax et amor vincunt omnia, radarmark
     
  20. SoulFood

    SoulFood New Member

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    Jesus was God in the flesh


    John.1

    [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
    [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    [4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    John.10

    [30] I and my Father are one.



    1John.5

    1. [7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.




    :confused:Is this same topic being posted multiple times?
    http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-truth-about-trinity-13981.html
     

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