The truth about Trinity

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Sensei, May 22, 2011.

  1. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Ex nihilo, nihil fit

    Fail to grasp the significance of this statement, and all else in one's philosophy and theology will suffer as a result.

    For example, we err when we are always seeking to extricate God from the intricate, tightly-knit WEB that weaves together ALL LIFE, every atom and sub-quark, uniting all in what physicists call Quantum Entanglement, and joining together ALL of us in Nature's existing Communion. We overlook what is obvious, hidden in plain sight, as one here has put it - when we are too busy seeking what is already right before our eyes (as Christ Jesus put it).

    Thus, pay attention. There's somebody trying to tell you something here. Several folks, actually ... And as we are apt to point out: when the mind is full, there's no more room for knowledge, for Wisdom, for a Greater Awareness.

    The horse just stands there by the River Alph, yet knows not what to do, stupefied - I suppose - by the pretty cut of the cloth and the pattern on the Emperor's flashy, trendy, gaudy new clothes.

    Likewise, observe Nature's cycles, and know them - through one's scientific, rational studies, gaining insight and intuitive, *direct knowledge* - as applicable to ALL that is in manifestation. EVERYTHING is cyclic ...

    Understand the relationships between the Great and the Lesser. Ezekiel described wheels within Wheels within WHEELS. To deny the Greatest Wheel of ALL is folly. Even Gods [and G*D] expresses, manifests, appears and then disappears according to such LAW, upon the Greatest Wheel. This is cyclic, and even children know this. Then again, some are steeped in the most sublime of Philosophies, and yet know not the significance and importance of Matthew 18:3. Ask me how I know ... and how I can thus CALL it when I SEE it. ;)

    We find Genesis stating clearly that we are contained within the Being of God Himself (Himself/Herself, there being no gender-difference in the worlds of Platonic Form). Transcend that, Mr. Smarty-Pants, and don't drag your own Anthropomorphisms with you, re-inventing the male-female distinctions all over again. Mankind originally was manifest, from out of the more ethereal worlds, as male-and-female, and gender differentiation only occurred gradually (perhaps over millions of years).

    There is good reason to believe that in time, such differentiation will again disappear, as Humanity learns that the material creation is only a reflection of the greater, Spiritual Creation - and that we, too, partake of the Divine Nature, even as we clearly have a material, limited and mortal nature. Understand `Original Sin,' yes, but not if you are going to abandon Original GOODNESS, Original PURITY, and Original, DIVINE Potential!

    Thus the curse of the dry, heady theology which divorces Man from a measure of the Spirit which already - and permanently - resides WITHIN him. We are as `little Christs,' and each individual Soul is like a cell within the body of the ONE Humanity. Christ taught this, and He spoke of a future wherein this cannot and will not be disputed by the blind, heady philosopher, for even HIS poisoned heart will become purified - and his little mind will burst forth with the Illumination and the spiritual radiation of 1,000 Suns.

    But don't take MY word for it, take that of Christ Jesus. Take the Baptism, as you (and I) prepare for it. Take the Transfiguration, as you and I ascend the steps that lead to the top of the Mountain, where along the Way we may meet the many hundreds, the thousands and more - who have traveled that Way, long long ago. You see, MANY there are, who have traveled that Way before [you, and me].

    The Son, in my experience, refers to the Consciousness Aspect, created by the union of Spirit with Matter. Matter evolves linguistically from the word for Mother, `mater.' If you think that's a coincidence or just convenient, you're out to lunch. The Father is the Positive Pole of manifestation, yet in this case, it is Father Spirit and Mother Matter which - when brought into relationship - produced the Son Aspect. That is Consciousness, the SOUL Itself, which is transcendent of the personality, the `little self' of a single, given incarnation.

    In the Greater, it is the Christ within Whom the Consciousness Aspect, which itself is a Triune Power [Atma-Buddhi-Manas, Will-Wisdom-Intellect], comes to full Perfection and Fruition. Study St. Paul's teachings to those who were already WELL-familiar, some of them, with the Mystery Traditions, long before the advent and arrival of Christ Jesus upon the scene. The converted Apostle did not totally flub things up. He speaks with Wisdom and encouragement, with keen, clear meaning and direct Insight, from experience - in Ephesians 4:13 - when he gives us all a measuring-stick for judging our own degree of spiritual evolution.

    Each Soul is a cell within the greater Body of the Christ. But not all are perfect yet in manifestation. And this [Perfecting process] is not an easy task, as most things which are worth it do require considerable effort - both in this world and the next, in EVERY incarnation in which we find ourselves. The result? See Revelation 3:12. We use the expression `Pillars of Society,' and this is one reason why. There are such men and women within our world, and they are here voluntarily. Ask the Buddhists about this; ask the Theosophists, and today's esotericists.

    Some care not one whit about Roman Catholic theology, or about mincing words, when the needs of the world are abundant. There is much unnecessary suffering, and there is confusion - widespread - when we do not even realize that OUR SOUL IS IMMORTAL. There is nothing you need to do to guarantee that. Rather, we are Spiritual Beings, having a human incarnation and experience. Teilhard de Chardin reminds us of that. And in this case, that's one comment from a Jesuit that you can take to the bank.

    I am necessarily limited in what I can say about a strictly Roman Catholic doctrine of, or treatment of - `The Trinity.' I am far more interested in where this idea intersects with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit of mainstream Christianity, focusing as it does quite largely on the Son of God, as this came to full fruition within Christ Jesus. I am especially interested in WHY, and HOW, it was the case that this Son of Man managed to incarnate and embody the 2nd Aspect of the Logos - quite literally in the truest sense of these words.

    Because we are dealing here with Earth as a Logos, even though we are not one of the `Seven Spirits before the Throne of God,' there was - and is - something unusual, yet Magnificent going on, which I believe has NEVER before occurred in the long, difficult history of this planet. I have said elsewhere that the 3rd Aspect of the Trinity became anchored through the earlier Work and Sacrifice of Moses, and of Shakyamuni Buddha. This is a vital consideration. Together, they can be said to have brought the LIGHT of God into expression - in a way which our planet had never before experienced. This is the Holy Spirit, whatever else Catholics have to say about it.

    The Christ, in His overshadowing of the Nazarene Initiate, meaning in the Work and Sacrifice of these two Sons of Men, also Sons of God in essentially the fullest sense ... brought the LOVE of God into similar manifestation, or expression, and `anchored' this 2nd Aspect for all of Humanity in a Way in which ALL Souls will one day tread, as Christed Jesus refers to it, affirms, and invites us. This is CENTRAL to Christian Theology, and most Christians can and do sense the immensity of this, however faintly or dimly, steeped as the teachings are in the present day by countless generations of distortion, superstition and corruption.

    There still rests - firmly within, as the very heart and esoteric center of this great Faith and Tradition - the Wisdom of the Godhead, expressed for us as well as Humanity can at present bear the future Realization and Revelation. Anyone who has had the experience of Nirvana, or the Bliss of the Buddhic world - called `perfect understanding' by the Christ, including as it does Agape Love and also the Eastern concept of Compassion, plus Christian Forgiveness or Mercy - anyone who has touched and allowed this into the heart, is forever changed, even if that experience was but a fleeting glimpse.

    Often the experience is so transformative that the person affirms it, responding with every fiber of one's being, proclaiming that s/he has been `saved.' And it is unquestionably an indication that Soul contact has been achieved to a degree, as the Soul is resident within the spiritual worlds, and not at all an abstract entity which it is somehow our own prerogative, or within our own capacity and caprice, to manipulate, steer or `doom' to an eternal hell. Here are the true problems within the theology of today, blinding so many millions to a Greater Light, and a Greater Love, which are OF GOD, DIRECT.

    If I invite you to tell us something about your own experience, and to do so in whatever format bears witness to the life-changing events or experiences which have led you along the Path of Greater Self-Realization, and into the very Heart of the Divine ... you have a choice. You can take offense, because deep down, you know that you are already bested, you are jealous, and your ego is lashing out - thrusting with a proverbial Samurai sword to wound, to pierce, and even to cut out that heart of one's fellow being, envious as we tend to be of those who have won the right to their own experience [of the Divine, through hard work and sacrifice, we must assume - as this is the only way which the Soul, with our cooperation, wins Her Freedom].

    Or of course, we can realize that we do not need to go on the defensive, and we can acknowledge an Olive branch as what it actually is. To make the mistake of the past, while understandable, is as telling as the recognition of what is trying to take place. Until I myself am Perfect, even as was Christ Jesus, as were many before Him, and as some have also become after Him ... until then, expect additional mistakes. But know also that every time you thrust forth your rusty sword blade, it only means that an equal expenditure of force must be used to dismiss the attack, and to redirect the lashing out into something more productive, more Positive and more useful.

    Yes, it is true, that as I continue to subdue the ego, you will occasionally (some of us, anyway) be reminded that you are not there yet. None of us are, save those among us Who are. And while I am not depending upon Them, at present, for MY understanding of Father, Son and Holy Ghost, nor for Their protection from the jealous, vainglory lashings out that sometimes come my way, one thing I DO look for is the continued, ever-Constant and wonderful `Sendings' (as one Mahatma calls them) from the Higher Worlds. At times, this suffuses the student, and reminds us that in the near future, even the WILL of the Father will be somewhat revealed, by Christ and the Great Ones, to those who are preparing themselves for such a New Chronicle in Humanity's evolving History.

    This time, it will not be the Light, or even the Love which will be anchored for - and within - Humanity, with our cooperation and assistance, of course. Rather, it is the very WILL of the Father, and this involves the Purpose of the [Earth] Logos for even manifesting, bringing the rest of us - Monadically - into co-manifestation. For while the Ageless Wisdom Teachings do describe our relationship with the Divine as something like cells within the body [as did Christ Jesus, and others before Him], it is also accurate to say that we each have, as Souls, a line of future spiritual evolution which is most suited for us, individually, and which we are working out both with one another, INTER-dependently, as well as intimately, personally and thus uniquely.

    Just some commentary, and a reminder - that poking people with pig-stickers, even in a forum about The Trinity of all things - is not very nice. Yes indeed, people kill "in the name of their loving God" ... while often the utter inconsistency and hypocrisy totally misses them, as fully as they themselves continue to MISS the Mark. But as has been said over, and over, and over again: "You can lead a horse to water ..."

    Sighhh. :rolleyes:

    Meanwhile, Christ affirms (as does the Soul within us ALL):
    Water of Life am I, brought forth for thirsty men.
    Christians will know the reference in Luke 22:10 as relevant, while it will be lost of many who cannot - or will not - read the language and Signature of the Divine Himself, writ large in the Heavens, for ALL Men to see. They have their dusty books, and perhaps in their ivory-tower, that is all that they will ever need - until they step on their spectacles, Burgess. :(

    Namaskar, and God Bless
     
  2. Shibolet

    Shibolet Well-Known Member

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    There is no truth about the Trinity if you understand the following:

    The Absolute Unity of God

    Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

    Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

    More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

    More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

    Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

    Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

    Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

    Ben Masada
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    shibolet is ben masada? is this an aha moment?
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    The Doctrine of the Trinity does not infer 'more than one God', so perhaps you should try and understand what the doctrine says before criticising it.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    He is a Jew, he has no interest in understanding or criticizing it, more of destroying or belittling it.

    Not that there is anything wrong with being a Jew... This is a person it seems whose only way to make himself feel good about his beliefs is to belittle others beliefs.

    Or so it appears, post after post after post.
     
  6. Shibolet

    Shibolet Well-Known Member

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    My real name is Abraham ben Masada. Interesting that my father was called Masada ben Abraham. Shibolet is just what I have chosen for my username.
     
  7. Shibolet

    Shibolet Well-Known Member

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    That's any thing but ABSOLUTE Monotheism. Not Jewish therefore. Matthew 28:19 is very clear about baptizing in the name of (God) the Father, (God) the son and (God) the Holy Ghost. I can't see how you can juggle on that rope without falling.
     
  8. Shibolet

    Shibolet Well-Known Member

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    The problem with you Wil is that you can't handle the Truth.
     
  9. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Probably depends on 'the Truth'. There are many 'Truths' I can't handle. Yours aren't so problematic though, a little too black and white perhaps.
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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  11. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Which is why I suggest you take to time to try and understand the doctrine before jumping to conclusions, because I am a monotheist, and I am not obliged to juggle or walk a tightrope ... and it can be reasoned, and there is a wealth of testimony towards that end.

    So maybe the problem is with your lack of understanding? The evidence would seem to suggest as much.

    If I were to approach the Hebrew Scriptures, for example, with the same assumptions you bring to the New Testament, then I would find the God of that text to be a thoroughly nasty piece of work – He wages war; He is jealous, bitter, angry, spiteful and capricious; He sends disease, famine, pestilence; He destroys whole nations at a whim; He heaps suffering on the shoulders of the innocent; He kills the innocent child, indeed, His followers await the day that He will do it again: "Blessed be he that shall take and dash thy little ones (children of Babylon) against the rock." (Psalm 136:9).

    Is that the God of Israel? Not to me.

    That's the idol of the fundamentalist.

    Why do I think that? Because I have listened to the commentaries of the Tradition. Because I know something of human nature. Because I seek those who offer insights rather than assumptions. The fruit of contemplation, rather than easy conclusions.

    And even when it goes against the grain, I accept I might well be wrong.

    I believe the same of every authentic religious tradition, that their sacred texts are inspired, insightful, that they are "the winnowed wisdom of the human race" (Prof. Huston Smith).

    And two more things:
    That they are more than just 'skin deep' ...
    That just because I can read, does not mean I understand what I read ...

    I seek the spirit behind the letter ...
     
  12. donnann

    donnann Well-Known Member

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    I think the jewish star is a good representation of the complete trinity. The upper triangle is god, the lower the goddess and they are linked to show they are not only one but two as well.l This would be a trinity.
     
  13. Shibolet

    Shibolet Well-Known Member

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    The is only one Truth.
     
  14. Shibolet

    Shibolet Well-Known Member

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    Every thing above is wrong as a description of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is concerned. You have chosen an anthropomorphic position to describe God as if He were just like an evil man. Then, you claim to seek the spirit behind the letter. Why don't you try to go beyond the letter and look at the Truth from the realm of metaphorical language? You could find the real God that way.
     
  15. Shibolet

    Shibolet Well-Known Member

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    In that case, your god must be six and not three. The Jewish star does not have only 3 angles but 6.
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    That's my point, perhaps you missed it.

    That's what many people here will assert. I don't. I think it's a naive and pejorative reading of the text. Furthermore, there's plenty of good scholarship out there to counter such accusations, but the people who make them, and they are as insistent as they are persistent, refuse to acknowledge any opinion other than their own. It's fundamentalism and prejudice, pure and simple.

    I have done.

    That's why I believe in the Trinity as the Doctrine declares it.

    One has to read beyond the letter of Scripture to fully understand and comprehend what the letter is saying. Too many read the latter at face value, and jump to their own conclusions.

    People miss the point about metaphor and analogy – metaphor 'carries across'; analogy infers, 'according to reason'. In short, an analogy is a perceived likeness between two entities, whilst a metaphor communicates that likeness.

    In the traditional sense, and the sense in which Scripture was written, the two entities implied in such linguistic terms, analogy, metaphor, parable, etc., are regarded as two realities, the seen and the unseen.

    In contemporary usage, the focus of which is largely on the seen, the unseen remains just that, its beyond the purview of the contemporary mind. Rather than seeing the unseen as 'the Other' as spoken of in all the great traditions, there is no 'carrying across', the language is interpreted in the terms of the self, and becomes the means of the mythologising of an idealised self.

    So people read Scripture, and see what they want to see.

    Take the Parable of the Mustard Seed (Synoptics and Thomas). Assumed to be the Black Mustard, it's a plant, and although grows to about 9 foot tall, it hardly "becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in its branches." There would be better trees to choose from.

    One could assume that this 'contradiction' is because of the authors' deficiency in the knowledge of horticulture. Or that Jesus, and the scribe, was pointing at something else altogether ...
     
  17. Shibolet

    Shibolet Well-Known Member

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  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    lol...religious plagiarism...

    we had a Zoroastrian around who was claiming that about abrahamic religions...

    but anyone who thinks that building a castle upon an old foundation is wrong... we'd have never got multiplication...
     

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