Divine Intervention v. Divine Inspiration

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by wil, Aug 8, 2011.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Was I supposed to receive an epiphany from your words? My bad.

    I've read your comments Thomas, and sorry, but it is the same old song and dance my friend. I've moved on. I've got no need to defend, I am in the mode of discussion, not tit for tat, nor carved in stone belief systems.

    It is whatever floats your boat...and my boat doesn't just float, it glides with the wind, and the tiller, sail and thought provoked motor takes me comfortably through life....not with original sin, but original blessing.

    Not with divine intervention and man's interpretation, but divine inspiration.

    What old dead guys argued about is interesting at times, but not all times. There is air to breath, poetry and music to listen to, gardens to till and watch grow, food to eat, people to revel in....defend?? Defend what works, that which fuels bliss?? A waste of time and energy.

    Live Thomas! Your principles are enough for you to excel and enjoy, you don't need to trod on me or mine for your benefit, lack mentality thinks this way, our father is rich, we live in an abundant world, room enough for all beliefs.

    hee, hee...I'm a fundie...that's gotta make folks chuckle, but yes you know the fundamentals of my church....




    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=+1]5 Basic Unity Principles[/SIZE][/FONT]
    1. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]There is only One Power and One Presence active in the universe and in my life, God, the Good, Omnipotent.
    2. Our essence is of God; therefore, we are inherently good. This God essence was fully expressed in Jesus, the Christ.
    3. We are co-creators with God, creating reality through thoughts held in mind.
    4. Through affirmative prayer and meditation, I connect with God and bring out the good in my life.
    5. Through thoughts, words and actions, we live in the truth we know.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    We live in grace Thomas, and it is freely given by G!d and not controlled by any intermediary, and not demanded by any song and dance. We can close ourselves to it, but all it takes is a choice to allow it....
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Bob —

    But we have no evidence beyond supposition, have we?

    D'you think so? I don't. Luke is regarded as the gospel of solidarity, but all the gospels contain that message. You can't say it's absent from John. You can say other issues are more important. John was addressing a nascent schism in the community at Ephesus and we do know he was addressing certain aspects of the Christian teaching that stood at risk of being distorted by an Hellenic dualism.

    I disagree. The Johannine Corpus presses social justice, in perhaps a very Christian way — love one another.

    Don't buy it. Concensus by committee — saints preserve us! That kind of consensus of the lowest common denominator, the critical minimum, would require that anything questionable be removed. You'd be left with nothing.

    Although they might all agree, the Jesus they leave the room with will be pretty much the same as the one they walked in with.

    Looking around at Meier, he seems to observe a distinction between the Jesus of history — that is the Jesus available for historical investigation — and the Jesus of Faith. He's not saying the former eradicates the latter, or undermines it ... he's saying, there is a critical minimum that can reasonably be agreed to, but that is not the foundation of faith, and nor is faith in any way absurd for not resting solely on the critical minimum.

    Yes there are, but they're not compelling, and they can be answered.
    Nor is there evidence that they are copies. I would have thought to compose the New Testament, to invent the character of Jesus, from various mythological sources, is pushing the bounds of credibility ... it would be a magnum opus of scholarly synthesis, wouldn't it?

    And it would require that even the few sources we can reply on — Paul, Luke, to be part of a huge deception.

    Bultmann pressed the myth argument, and was soundly refuted:
    A is a myth
    B reads like A
    Therefore B is a myth.
    — when examined, that third statement is not a given, it's an assumption.

    In which case, the whole premise of Scripture would have to be refuted, wouldn't it, as it records something other than everyday experience?

    And who can say if a miracle happened? Or the transfiguration? Or the resurrection? You can't ... you can only say I don't believe they happened.

    I don't agree that one's own experience is the benchmark, that's too subjective. Or put another way, what about approaching with an open mind? It seems to me that closed minds are the primary limits on our understanding anything.

    Now I fully accept that there are those who insist every word of scripture was dictated by God to a scribe, and that is nonsense, but by the same token, I also regard the notion that it's all 'made up' is equally a nonsense, and furthermore that by taking away the 'supernatural' from the 'natural' will leave us with an authentic image of the historical Jesus is equally a nonsense.

    The honest answer is: I have never seen a miracle, but I cannot rule them out.

    I also take in the works of philosophers like Ricoeur and Lonergan on the nature of sacred texts ... if one assumes a sacred text is like any other text, then I suggest one has already missed the mark.

    I think eye-witness, or a proximity to events, is a more reliable claim to authority than the assumptions of someone 2,000 years removed.

    In the field of Patristics, it's said, 'think the way the Fathers thought' — something of a challenge, as we don't know, we only assume, nor can we pretend to see the world as a 5th century monk or philosopher ... So likewise with modern scholarship, it assumes it knows better — Troy is a myth, Luke made up names and titles to suit himself ... until it's proved wrong.

    We settled to that view ages ago ... it's there in the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church in 1965.

    But we're not, are we?

    OK. But that's not the Christ of Faith, is it? That's the Jesus of history. Meier makes it quite clear the two are different, and the 'historical Jesus' is just one aspect of the Jesus of Faith. It doesn't prove or disprove anything.

    But Meier even defends the Gospel of John!

    But in your rebuttal of John, you seem to assume this of the church, that the church set out to create a self-serving doctrine ... but I see no evidence for it. And as i underdtand it, negative criticism is no criticism at all.

    OK. But are they willing to accept that their presuppositions might alse be flawed?

    That's no reason at all.

    Because truth is timeless? Because the same truths are thought anew, but that does not alter them as truths, just explains them more.

    Do we dispose of Native American wisdom because they didn't use the wheel? Do we toss away the Upanishads, or the Sutras, because they're ... old?

    Catholics find themselves in a curious position. If we accept Scripture as is, without question, we're accued of blind faith, etc., if we contemplate and draw out of the text hitherto veiled secrets, then we're accused of inventing doctrines.

    That's the human nature, not the divine nature.

    In the first instance, i believe God stands beyond all forms, human or otherwise, God is, in that sense, unimaginable, except in philosophical or metaphysical terms ... but God, it would seem, chooses to make Himself known, as does so in the most intimate manner, by revealing Himself as a person to persons, in so doing encompasses all that the person is, and more.

    As regards Jesus, we Catholics obsrve the distinction of the two natures ... that one 'stands under' the other (Gk: hypostasis), and that is how we explain it.

    Interestingly, when I discussed the hypostatic union elsewhere, the inevitable question was, where does the word 'hypostasis' occur in Scripture, and if not, Aha! You're making it up. I replied the term is used 21 times in the Septuagint, but never in the manner of theology ... but does not 'the words became flesh' say 'hypostasis'?
    I think so.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  3. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Instead of Writting an indepth article regarding the "BLARING HEADLINES"
    the editors went on and on with how they feel about the patches worn on their sleeves.

    The Headline is:
    Divine Intervention v. Divine Inspiration

    Now the question can be asked:
    What Divine Intervention is any one talking about?
    or
    What Divine Inspiration is any one talking about?

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    It is written:
    "To whom great things are given; great things are expected."

    Jesu Christo advised:
    "Our father who art in Heaven, Holy is thy name . . . " [Jesus's emphasis not mine]

    Beyond this explicit qualification . . . why is not all emphasis placed on the recitation of God's Holy Name, in contrast with intellectual musings, to be considered the Gold-Standard for reflective spiritual meditation?

    Hari bol,
    Bhaktajan
     
  4. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    I like the quote about great things are given but also expected but doesnt that apply to everyone. If someone was literally sent from heaven to earth to give knowledge ect isnt the responsability of the human community to use that knowledge instead of trying to shove all the work on the one sent? Its like kids today they want everything handed to them with no work put into gaining things for themselves.
     
  5. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Hi Thomas,

    If you do research you will find the documentation about those tablets.
     
  6. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Take a look around sex is a creative force sperm and egg :) so why wouldnt you think it is also a spirit energy?
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Your emphasis? His emphasis, or the translators emphasis?

    The Prayer To Our Father
    (in the original Aramaic)
    Abwûn
    "Oh
    Thou, from whom the breath of life comes,

    d'bwaschmâja
    who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.

    Nethkâdasch schmach
    May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.

    Têtê malkuthach.
    Your Heavenly Domain approaches.

    Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha.
    Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates)
    just as on earth (that is material and dense).

    Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna.
    Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need,

    Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna
    daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên.

    detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma)
    like we let go the guilt of others.

    Wela tachlân l'nesjuna
    Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations),

    ela patzân min bischa.
    but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.

    Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn.
    From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act,
    the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.
    Amên.
    Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
    (I confirm with my entire being)
     
  8. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    YHVH is actually the family name like people have last names so say for example Michael would be Michael YHVH
     
  9. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Please hold on to your pants ---tighten your belt:

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    "Our father who art in Heaven, Holy is thy name . . . "

    The name of God is utmost holiest.

    A] "Holiest":

    A verse from the Brhan-naradiya Purana:

    " harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam
    kalau nasty eva nasti eva nasti eva gatir anyatha"

    ---which means:

    "In this age of Kali, there is no alternative, there is no alternative, there is no alternative for spiritual progress other than the chanting of the holy name, the chanting of the holy name, the chanting of the holy name of the Lord."


    Hare Rama Hare Krishna Mantra


    B] "Lightof the Holiest":

    as confirmed in ancient Sanskrit theological sutras:

    Isha Upanishad verse 15:

    "hiranmayena patrena (dazzling effulgence)"
    from the verse that reads:

    "O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Please remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee."

    ISO Mantra 15 hiranmayena patrena... cited - Vaniquotes
     
  10. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    THE HOLY NAME of GOD

    Namaste is a Hindi salutation or greeting. The word Namaste is a combination of the two Sanskrit words: nama, and te. Basically, nama means "to bow" and te means "you."

    Naam literally means, the Name.

    Satnam contains two roots - 'Sat' means 'truth' & 'eternal', and, 'Naam' means 'name' - and is together translated as 'True Name'.

    Etymologically, the word has a striking resemblance with the Greek neumena or the Bright Essence as opposed to phenomena. Naam is not merely the ‘Name of God’ as is commonly believed; it symbolizes the Being of God filling all Creation**.

    **reference: OM
     
  11. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    My spouse seems to think talking about helping the homeless is crazy and that talking about religion is crazy........what do you think?
     
  12. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    Maybe a little less talk and a lot more action? :p
     
  13. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Those that received Jesus's "mercy" ---were all undeserving sinners bound for continued seperation from God's Grace . . . but Jesus brought the "causeless-grace" anyway.

    The 1st lesson of spiritual life is:
    "We are not the (material) body; we are (spirit) souls".

    That is what Jesus revealed to the masses.

    Material energy = created-maintained-destroyed & put into flux due to the interaction of the 3-Modes (tri-gunas) Goodness-passion-ignorance ~aka, creatation-maintainence-destruction. And thus, seeking out the reciprocal interpersonal pastimes with anything providing "sense-gratification" prompted by innate instinct (ie: eating, sleeping, mating, defending), or by whim.

    Spiritual energy = Eternal, Cognisant, Blissful (sat-chit-ananda) & thus, seeking out the reciprocal interpersonal pastimes with the Supreme Personality (aka, the autocrat Godhead).
     
  14. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Gatekeeper made my point before I could post this:

    One must preform their own alloted duties first --lest they be negligent in their duites.

    Being a Good samaratin is honorable ---but neglecting obliged duties is dangerous.

    Gita 18.47:

    It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Prescribed duties, according to one's nature, are never affected by sinful reactions.
    Bhagavad Gita As It Is, 18: Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation, Text 47.

    Police do police work; firemen fight fire; bosses supervise; cooks cook; cleaners clean etc

    BTW, giving charity to the Homeless makes one an enabler, an accessary, a benfactor in a life of Homelessness ---you will share in the karmic debt-load of any bad acts that the Homeless recipient gets from you ---for example, it is like simply inviting them to live in your home . . . where then, you are responsible for their acts good & bad.

    There are so many ways to speculate on 'wouldda, couldda shouldda' --but their is also Obligations that are written in stone and also written in many a legal contract that must be attended to.

    Keep in mind that that Homeless person is not lost in a desert or adrift in an ocean ---they are traveling the same gold lined boulevards as you are ---yet they excercise their initiative to daydream very thick, dense and finely. Rather then doing their own home work.
     
  15. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    Well this depends on the type of charity, no? Giving a homeless person a couple dollars might not be a good method, whereas helping to provide a shelter, coupled with some basic resources, and requiring a modest amount of work in the shelter itself may provide a means to strengthen one's resolve.


    For instance, I once sheltered a homeless man in my home. I required them to do modest house work while here, and also that they diligently pursue employment. They have since found a very lucrative career, and now live a very good life, even better than myself.


    Did I enable this individual as one enables an alcoholic or drug addict? Not by a long shot! The proof is in the pudding! Could your view be a cop out, an excuse not to help those who need it most? I'm not suggesting that there is a success story in every attempt, but rather that there are things we CAN do to help that wouldn't "enable" those who are in need.
     
  16. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Funny, Gatekeeper, when I got out of jail last year and still had a restraining order against me some friends opened up the home and sheltered me for three months. The only thing it enabled was me returning to my bride of 30 years and a half-way normal life.

    I have done the same both before and since. If this is enabling, call me one.

    Pax et amore vincunt omnia.... radarmarlk
     
  17. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    I was homeless myself for a short period of time and I saw what goes on in those places. Drug dealers and prostitutes intentionally get people who really need to be there kicked out so they can use the shelter to deal their drugs and recruit women into protitution. Some of the people that work there are only in it to benefit themselves.There was a donation of clothes that had come in a nice lady who worked there told me to go pick out anything I wanted. I did and a young college student that worked there saw me in a twin shirt, there were two I only took one because I didnt want to be greedy. She saw me with the shirt got mad and said WHO said you could have that I wanted those shirts. Well I had left one so why was she so greedy. She didnt care about the homeless she was only working there to supply herself with a wardrobe. There are three places you find the worse criminal element and thats around the weakest people. Mental hospitals, prisons, and homeless shelters. They prey on the weak , they are abusive people and they know they can get away with it because whos going to believe them if they tell? Food for thought huh
     
  18. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Well this depends on the type of charity!

    [BTW, how Homeless was the Homeless person in your experience?
    All youth are homeless ---living in another's home.

    All travelers are homeless. Long distance Van-drivers are homeless.
    All Airline pilots are hoemless, while working.]

    Good deeds are not what I was referring to.

    I simply am saying that giving in charity is exactly How Karma works.

    The act (Karma) of giving charity accrues the (karma-phalam) fruits of acts preformed by the recipient of the charity.

    IE: If a country gives millions of charity to wonton-governed country ---expect the backlash that will result from subsidising the wrong doers of that country.

    The international network of entwined mesh of Karma is big business;
    just as well as,
    The small-time network of entwined mesh of Karma is micro business.

    We must rise above the reactions of karma to make a permanent affect.

    To be rid of a vise; one must replace the vise with a higher taste.

    I guess I have been saying "do not give charity to those that obviously cannot manage it ---rather, bring them home and teach them how to be a householder themselves"
     
  19. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    I mean literally homeless no place to go. Everyone knows the abuses that go on in prisons but does anyone care? I am not ashamed to admit but I did my tour in mental hospitals as well. Its a haven for abusive people and they prey on the weak. Not saying everyone working in those places are like that but they are sure there. I was in one watched them give a girl a shot that made her deathly ill. Of course they gave me the same shot and I was spitting up blood at which point the two idiots at the counter gave me a paper bag to spit the blood into.....sound humane to you? I dont know maybe god somehow sent me there to see and witness to these horrible things they are doing to those poor people but I also experienced it myself.
     
  20. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Also I was in hospitals most people that work in them are good but not everyone. I remember complaining about them sticking my daughter megans feet with a needle next time they brought her in she had so many needled marks I was pissed. Hubby just sat there didnt seem to think it was an issue. So yes there is abuse going on, I say catch them and lock them up
     

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