God to You

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by Etu Malku, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    It's not so much a pastime as a solemnity.

    The Crucifixion. It's in all the Gospels.

    It's nothing to do with 'Brahminical prowess', whatever that might mean, it sits within its own hermeneutic.

    It is self-explanatory in Christian terms (estrangement/union), it's self explanatory in Platonic terms (exitus/reditus) ... neither require the Vedas as source data for their thinking.

    I think it's a flaw to assume that because culture 'A' has an idea, then every subsequent emergence of the idea must derive from culture 'A', rather than from the natural processes of ideation.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  2. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    or, perhaps, the reverse.

    precisely. there *is* a thing called convergent evolution. it's why you get pyramids in mexico as well as egypt - not because the mayas admired the egyptians.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  3. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    bananabrain and Thomas,

    I say Western culture and it's inherited customs came from the east.

    You westerners do "Animal Sacrifice" [ref: a) Cain & Abel; and conversely b) the admonition against offering Fat/blood ---both in the Book of Genesis].

    I ask you to identify the mystic reasons from the physical ritual.

    Where in Biblical writ is the injoined, and what is the common place reason for "Sacrifical Offerring in Biblical pathos"?

    My reference to Brahminical tradition is highly delineated as to the whys & wherefores of "Sacrifice" [and penance etc] ad-infinitum.
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    Even this singularly unique and obtuse verse from the Gita halts my thoughts, and leaves me wondering:

    Krishna said to Arjuna (3:10):
    In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of men and demigods, along with sacrifices for Visnu, and blessed them by saying,
    "Be thou happy by this yajna [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you all desirable things."
    Bhagavad Gita As It Is, 3: Karma-yoga, Text 10.

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    I asked you "Actually I need to here Christians explaain to me why this Pastime of Sacrifices occurs."

    Thomas said: "the idea of sacrifice seems universal?" --[!!!]

    I do see the Universal common denouminator amongst differring world traditions ---but that's is what I am referring to when I cited Brahminical Traditions that filtered down thorough the onset of Kali-yuga's first 3,000 years [2,000 BCE to 1AD].

    I assert that the basis of "religious Sacrifice" is in explicable for Judeo-Christians to explain . . . aside from the obligation of passed down tradition to observe such rituals.

    Krishna Says: "Destroyers of family traditions always dwell in hell"
     
  4. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    OK, my understanding would be considered heretical by many. :eek:
    Matt 12:7
    7 If you had known what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the innocent.​
    Jesus was innocent, yet he was condemned and "sacrificed." When will we ever learn?

    Hosea 6:6

    6 For I desire loyalty and not sacrifice,
    the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. ​


    Ecclesiates 5:1
    1 Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. To draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they are doing evil.​


    When will we understand and learn from our evil acts, and quit doing them? :(
     
  5. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Scriptuarlly, you are bang-on SG. Bhakhtajan, while ultimately culture and language come from a common ancestor, it is really had to justify you claim (Western ulture came from the East). It is a reversal of the "Egyptians must have visited the pre-Maya" or "sea-fairing people from Europe must have circumnavigated Africa and started the boat migrations Eastward".

    Linguistically and biologically we know that there was a precursor group that gave rise to the Indus-Iran-European peoples (except probably the Basques and perhaps the "Ginger Gene" remnants of Neaderthals). In the East it would seem that some Munda-Austrailian-Siberian peoples survived also.

    And it make sense that the IIE folks came out of the Iranian basin (the Indus civilization seems so utterly disconnected from the Sanskrit civilization and the Basque-Ginger Gene population is really limited to the Altantic coast).

    I am no expert. But I prefer this possibility. Plus I like Ghandiji's comment about it being about time for Western Civilization .

    Pax et amore omnia vincunt
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Amen ... and I say again, amen!

    God bless us, each and every one.

    Thomas
     
  7. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    I thought I would post the same thing in this thread as it seems appropriate.

    Lately I have been researching further about our Daimon / Higher Self.

    Interesting in that this Daimon / Dæmon is focused on our vocation / true Will. It creates severe problems in us when we are not on our vocation path, though many of us don't even know our vocation and live life not doing what we would do best.

    The Dæmon exists on a Higher Plane than where we are at, as we excel and master our vocation / calling we step up spiritually and so does our Dæmon, until the Dæmon is on the Divine Plane and we are then communing with our Divine Being.


    Do any of these concepts line up with anyone else's Beliefs?
     
  8. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

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    Sounds similar to self-actualization, which although not an overtly spiritual concept, does address the concept of reaching one's full potential in life. Maslow believed that we desire to become more and more what we truly are throughout life, and that the desire for personal growth (and I would add spiritual growth) is what takes us there. Lower-order needs (food, shelter, safey, belongingness, etc) must be met before we can transcend our basic physical and psychological needs and work towards self-actualization.

    For me, self-actualization is the desire/striving to reach my full potential in life, to life fully in the present moment, to not fear death, and to maximize my contribution to family and society. Self-knowledge is key to this process.
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Hi Etu Malku —
    Well the Christian Tradition has 'guardian angels' — but these do not act as catalysts, intermediaries or aspects of the individual relationship with the Divine, in the same way you propose.

    Again, in the Christian Tradition, angels are regarded as beings of pure intellect, they are 'ideas' if you will, not part of the sensible realm.

    A fundamental aspect of Christian amthropology is, however, the holism of the person/being ... so whilst we have different faculties — memory, intellect, will, and so forth, we are loathe to suggest the person is a conglomerate of different 'beings'.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  10. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    I already gave my initial, naturally scary because generally scared response, but now that I have had time to face my fear, or, rather, as we learn to say in Lamaze birthing classes, have “relaxed into it,” I have a new, improved response. So please be prepared.

    That, it seems to me, would very much depend upon the daemon in question. For instance, if one comes into contact with the always troublesome but clearly fun-loving daemon, Pan, one risks being given over to pandemonium, which is, I think, not only the etymology of the word but is also really only advisable during a set and limited time period, such as Carnival in Rio, for instance.

    On the other hand, as I recall, Jesus taught us to pray to his and to our Father, which art in Heaven, and he also located that Kingdom of Heaven within. Elsewhere, he prayed that his disciples would be “one” with him as he was one with the Father, and St. Paul referred to “Christ being formed in us.” All of that, to me, sounds rather internal, involving spiritual dynamics, and, in either fact or belief, choose a card, it is.

    As you know, because you responded to the theme, I did introduce Carl Jung (solely as an example of a gnostic who claims not to believe in God but rather to know) in the other thread and might mention, in this one, an interesting book I once read, written by one of Jung’s students, Edward Edinger. It is entitled “Ego and Archetype,” and one of the more memorable portions, to me, as a lad freshly out of parochial, boarding school (and thus immersed in religious instruction, which is the only reason I mention the schooling), was “Christ as Paradigm of the Individuating Ego.” I considered it highly instructive. I read it long ago, now, but parts of it, at least in essence, remain with me still and, at the time, I filled the margins with notes and the text with a yellow high-light pen. Finally, I might say that, while the book was good reading as an academic exercise, its contents have also proved true, or, perhaps more accurately said, in a sense operative, in the course of my life as well.

    There. And, oh yeah, I forgot to add: boo!
     
  11. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    I'm afraid you have misunderstood what the Daimon is, or rather how I am using the term. Daimon is our Inner Self, our Creative Self, it dwells in our Unconsciousness, our Subjective Universe. It is the same sex as you are, and is not a personified archetypal image such as Pan, or any Demon of the Goetia, etc.

    Ughhh, religion . . :rolleyes:

    Jung was not Gnostic, Atheist, or Agnostic. He understood God to be the Collective Unconsciousness, though not an actual entity, or one with Intent or Intelligence.

    :eek:
     
  12. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    That is entirely possible. It is an unusual term. As I recall, Plato used it, and I was drawing upon my recollections of him for my response.

    Thank you for clarifying your use of the term.

    Well, you asked if any of your concepts line up with anyone else’s beliefs and this is an Interfaith forum. What you described reminded me of both Eros, for example, being personified as a daemon (by Plato) and also of some of the dynamics of the Christian religion. I am hardly unique in that. I think it was Nietzsche who said that Christianity was Platonism for the masses. Would you like me to respond to you by saying: ughhh, irreligion?

    If you insist. Maybe I was too convinced by presentations of this type. I thought the analysis of Christ by Jung's student, Edward Edinger, was related to your question and that you might appreciate it. It's no big deal, though, if my assumption proves wrong.

    Let us talk later, maybe in other threads (consider this a hand-shake).

    Best regards,

    Serv
     
  13. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Have you been drinking Tommy?

    How can you respond that way?
    I am asking about something that goes way back.
    The birds bought at the temple courtyards at Solomon's.
    The cats used in Egypt etc etc.

    The cricifixtion was a means of capital punishment used by the Romans.

    Where did the idea that remunerations for unseen celetials via "offerrings & Incantations" begin ---that are share a common denouminator in far-flung cultures?
     
  14. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    You don't get to vote on any thing ---our opinions do not alter absolute facts.

    We are taught "Facts" from on high by elders.

    If God has a Bevy of Wives ---we'd only know of any such thing by God's decision to reveal the facts.

    This is called Descending Knowledge [vs Ascending knowledge] ---spiritual knowledge is imparted from the disciplic chain of tradition.

    Yes, some may only take heed from Canabals thinking they are righteous.

    There's plenty of spare time in the material world to do all the research to one's heart's content . . . until eternality is sought.
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm saying the origin of the idea of sacrifice goes beyond culture, it's endemic to the human condition — it goes deeper than simply saying 'we invented it'.

    In the Christian Tradition there is but one sacrifice, the Cross.
    The cricifixtion was a means of capital punishment used by the Romans.

    No, the only common denominator is a shared humanity, that's my point. Sacrifice is a universal concept. Cutural practices are veils. You're looking at the first veil and saying 'this is it'. I'm saying look beyond the veil.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  16. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    "the origin of the idea of sacrifice goes beyond culture"
    a] I agree.
    b] You subjective declaration is something "You just invented" ~ unless you show the 'scriptural commandments for doing such sacrificial rites' it's "Sentiment Only".

    I have scriptural injunctions for such rites ---Where are yours?

    The bread & wine are the sacrifice in Christianity ---again I ask, "Where are your scriptural injunctions for such rites"?

    This seems disjuncted.
    I asked, "Is there a common denouminator in far-flung cultures?"
    You answer, "No"
    You qualify your answer, "the only common denominator is"
    You further qualify your answer, "(it) is universal".

    I know what I mean to say.
    I qualified your seeming vexation with the proviso that you've had a libation or two, so as to expalin away the bad grammer.

    Ganga din is your friend not your foe.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 26:26, Mark 14:22, Luke 22:19, 1 Corinthians 11:24 primarily. John 6, and the general trend of the Epistles.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  18. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    I thank you Sir for the references.
    I may not be able to read (confirm your claims) in a timely way so as to respond quickly ---I'd have appreciated pasted the main verse that may have satisified my intellectual curiosity on this Universal custom.

    But, I simply want the quintessential factors [esp. the metaphysical reasoning] that universally has occurred since time-immemorial [aka, as western History/Religious books records].

    BTW, all acts/works SHOULD be a "sacrifice" ---a sacrifice of time and attention ... all for a goal that is either mundane or sublime or transcendent ---but this is inre material life.

    But, in what ancient metaphysical school of thought propagated thee/any "Sacrificial Ritual" designed to gain reciprocal requisitions from higher-up authorities?
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Quite

    I would have thought all would offer a similar answer to your comment above?

    Although I'm not sure where 'designed to gain reciprocal requisitions from higher-up authorities' come into play. Certainly not in Christianity.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  20. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Aka, in Latin: "quid pro quo"

    In common parlance: "What have you done for me lately"

    It is a universal factor that prompts the acquition of "Our Daily Bread" that is behind Ritualistic Rites. None Other.

    Non-material devotion to God is "to be without want".

    Such approaches of the devotion path must be learnt directly from the chain of disciplic succession.

    So, I will be looking into these verses and their purports [I do have the Bible on my computer just incase of such events]:

     

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