I said:Hi Ben - this covers a somewhat provocative interpretation.
I agree with your information on hades and sheol. You touched a little bit od gehenna..
Let's discuss the other 10% you don't agree with, and make a constructive discussion from that.
Hmmm, remember the conversation Abraham had with the fat man, who stood apart from him because of a "chasm that could not be crossed"? Abraham, if I recall correctly, was in "paradise", while the fat man (rich man) was in a tormented place. Anyway the fat man asked Abraham to quench his thirst, then asked him to warn the fat man's relatives of what could await them if they did not turn...Mus Zibii said:Heck yeah! First of all thanks for coming back. I felt guilty for our disagreement. I was hoping you hadn't got fed up and left. You're the only person who posts here.
Anyway, hell didn't seem to come about until the Vulgate when virtually any negative reference to death, misfortune, places in Greek mythology, or even territory of ill repute was translated as 'infernum'. There's no conflict, debate or anything on this in the writings of the early church fathers so why they all came to this conclusion is unknown. The conception and translation of heaven has a similiar dynamic. The funny thing, especially in the sections believed to have been worked on by Jerome, is that there are so many idioms related in Latin and yet on Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, etc they all get wiped away.
Another funny thing: in Islam Jehenna, is the catch-all term for hell, the authors probably never realizing this netherworld of fire would later be a grassy patch in Israel-land of the infidels.
This is a long reply sorry about that but I wanted to present a lot of information as I personaly feel that this is an important topic as it has a lesson for us all, and I really think it is worth reading as it might start other threadsQuahom1 said:Hmmm, remember the conversation Abraham had with the fat man, who stood apart from him because of a "chasm that could not be crossed"? Abraham, if I recall correctly, was in "paradise", while the fat man (rich man) was in a tormented place. Anyway the fat man asked Abraham to quench his thirst, then asked him to warn the fat man's relatives of what could await them if they did not turn...
Mus, I agree about the arguement for the story being a metaphor. As I admitted, 57's case would be well defended in court. However, the soul issue is the issue for those of us that believe it being immortal now, because Hell, is potentially one of two (or three if the potential of nothingness is considered) stops it could make...in the end ;-).Mus Zibii said:Well, I'm out of my place here, but don't JW believe that the 'end' will involve the faithful living immortally...
Okay, I'm not even going to bother. But I think if the soul issue were laid aside its a solid argument for the 'Bosom of Abraham' being a metaphor.
I am unsure as to just how not belirvung in an imortal soul makes my opinon mute. For me it adds weight to no hell fire....., except for one small detail. You do not believe in an immortal soul. This would make your case irrelevant, because after you die, there is nothing. Based on your own declaration of not believing in immortal souls, your entire arguement is mute.
Again I do not understand what your reasonoings areIt is impossible for a finite thought, to debate infinite thought, no matter how refined, comprehensive or persuasive it might be.
Because you declared your finiteness my friend, you have made it impossible for me to debate with you. And it was your choice.
Why do you think my view on no immortal soul is wrong?Personally, I think you are wrong about immortal souls. So I look forward to meeting you in the afterlife...;-)
No JWs do not belive that the faithfull will be living immortally. For me the term immortal means never being able to die eg God. Jws belive that the faithfull will be able to live forever as long as they remain faithfull.Mus Zibii said:Well, I'm out of my place here, but don't JW believe that the 'end' will involve the faithful living immortally...
I appreciate every one taking their time to make personal declaration of thei belief system, and everything I have posted has been my personal beleif system even though I have thought others (by using quotes) have said things bettere than I could, I will endevour to put my thoughts in my own words.I said:Ben, please go easy on the copy/pastes - most people here answer posts and individual comments by other posters with their *own* individual comments.
Simply referring to an outside source and pasting up information from it in reply is cheating the process of discussion - you would be effectively stating that you cannot think or articulate your own opinions on the matter, which defeats the purpose of trying to hold a discussion in the first place.
People give their time to make personal answers - please do the same.