What is the meaning of 'Hell'

[Quahom1]

Hello Quahom,




I am unsure as to just how not belirvung in an imortal soul makes my opinon mute. For me it adds weight to no hell fire.



Again I do not understand what your reasonoings are



Why do you think my view on no immortal soul is wrong?

Quite the contrary Ben. Your argument was powerful, for one defending the rights of all beliefs having equal importance in God's eyes, and the potential for hypocracy in certain "self important" religions. What diluted your discourse was your statement about not believing in immortal spirit/soul right at the beginning. That implied that it didn't matter to you the need to appeal to the concept of an immortal God looking kindly upon all of His immortal children, no matter what faith, and the consequenses of that same God's wrath. How can hell fire matter to the dead, or Heaven for that matter? A burning corpse feels no pain, nor can placing it in paradise give it pleasure. Because to a soul that can die, it doesn't matter.

It is nearly impossible for an attorney to covince a jury of something they already know he doesn't believe in, sir. That in and of itself smacks of hypocricy. Had you not mentioned your personal belief at the beginning, you would have had my back against the wall for days. In the US Congress that oratory might well qualify for a fillibuster.

Because you did, however, I was now concentrating on something other than what you wanted me to consider, namely how to nullify your argument, and my eyes kept scanning up to this statement:

"...With out at this time discussing an after life (I personally do not believe in an immortal soul)..."

The majority of people I am familiar with today, believe that the ultimate goal is to join forever with the ONE, or Cosmic Intelligence, or The Other, or God, or The Universe. It implies being unique but giving in to the all, to become close with, to not be alone forever.

Can't do this if one is dead. If one is dead, it doesn't matter (dead in spirit/soul).

As I stated Ben, I don't believe you have a mortal soul. But from a legal point of view, I think the jury would have taken my argument over yours this time. You declared from the beginning that you eh, had no spirit behind your argument.

Never douse the flame of hidden hope in humans that there is more than here and now, or you'll lose your audience.

v/r

A Lawyer's son...

Q

 

[Ben57]

Hello Quahom,

Thank you for relying to me.

First may I ask if I now understand what you were saying? Correct me if I am still not your track with your thoughts.

From the area highlited bellow ....

.. That implied that it didn't matter to you the need to appeal to the concept of an immortal God looking kindly upon all of His immortal children, no matter what faith, and the consequenses of that same God's wrath. How can hell fire matter to the dead, or Heaven for that matter? A burning corpse feels no pain, nor can placing it in paradise give it pleasure. Because to a soul that can die, it doesn't matter.

I think you are saying that I dissmised ther idea of a loving God wanting to look after his children... namely us humans. Is that what you were saying?

Based on my understanding of your words let me say please that I most certainly do beleive in a loving imortal God wanting only the best for his children ... us. That is why Jesus came to earth and ramsomed his life for us.

It is nearly impossible for an attorney to covince a jury of something they already know he doesn't believe in, sir. That in and of itself smacks of hypocricy. Had you not mentioned your personal belief at the beginning, you would have had my back against the wall for days. In the US Congress that oratory might well qualify for a fillibuster.

From that I understand that you are saying I it is unreasonable for me to talk about something I do not belive in? NOw I am not sure just as to what beleif you are refering too but read on and I hope I will clarify myself.

The majority of people I am familiar with today, believe that the ultimate goal is to join forever with the ONE, or Cosmic Intelligence, or The Other, or God, or The Universe. It implies being unique but giving in to the all, to become close with, to not be alone forever.

Can't do this if one is dead. If one is dead, it doesn't matter (dead in spirit/soul).

Yes I fully agree with you that most people seem to have some idea of a here after. That is part of the aspect behind the rich man and LAzarus account that Jesus spoke of, and the question as to if he really meant a here after or not.

I take my beleife system from the Bible and I appreciate that there are other beleif sytems that are not related to the Bible. I think part of the confution is this

As I stated Ben, I don't believe you have a mortal soul. But from a legal point of view, I think the jury would have taken my argument over yours this time.

Notice the word have and the way I highlited it! Well I do not beleive we have either a mortal nor imortal soul/spirt. I do not beleive the Bible teaches that subject. I beleive that the Bible teaches that each one of us individulayy are souls so we do not have (as a distinct part of us) a soul, we are the soul. That is the reason I stated in my earlier post

"...With out at this time discussing an after life (I personally do not believe in an immortal soul)..."

By the way I presented my discution, you evidently felt that I "... douse the flame of hidden hope in humans that there is more than here and now "

I appologise that I gave that impression, but at the time I was concentrating on the idea of what Jesus was meaning when he spoke of the rich man and Lazarus, and because that discution was so long I did not have the room to include extra detail.

That can be the topic of another discution if you like. What is Gods purpose for us if not to go and be with our creator for eternity? I personaly beleive that Gods perpose is for man to live on erath as humans without dieing, and that being the case there is a sure hope for us just not in heaven

 

[Quahom1]

Hello Quahom,

Thank you for relying to me.

First may I ask if I now understand what you were saying? Correct me if I am still not your track with your thoughts.

From the area highlited bellow ....
I think you are saying that I dissmised ther idea of a loving God wanting to look after his children... namely us humans. Is that what you were saying?

Based on my understanding of your words let me say please that I most certainly do beleive in a loving imortal God wanting only the best for his children ... us. That is why Jesus came to earth and ramsomed his life for us.

From that I understand that you are saying I it is unreasonable for me to talk about something I do not belive in? NOw I am not sure just as to what beleif you are refering too but read on and I hope I will clarify myself.


Yes I fully agree with you that most people seem to have some idea of a here after. That is part of the aspect behind the rich man and LAzarus account that Jesus spoke of, and the question as to if he really meant a here after or not.

I take my beleife system from the Bible and I appreciate that there are other beleif sytems that are not related to the Bible. I think part of the confution is this

Notice the word have and the way I highlited it! Well I do not beleive we have either a mortal nor imortal soul/spirt. I do not beleive the Bible teaches that subject. I beleive that the Bible teaches that each one of us individulayy are souls so we do not have (as a distinct part of us) a soul, we are the soul. That is the reason I stated in my earlier post

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By the way I presented my discution, you evidently felt that I "... douse the flame of hidden hope in humans that there is more than here and now "

I appologise that I gave that impression, but at the time I was concentrating on the idea of what Jesus was meaning when he spoke of the rich man and Lazarus, and because that discution was so long I did not have the room to include extra detail.

That can be the topic of another discution if you like. What is Gods purpose for us if not to go and be with our creator for eternity? I personaly beleive that Gods perpose is for man to live on erath as humans without dieing, and that being the case there is a sure hope for us just not in heaven

Good Evening Ben,

There is a difference between having something and being something, on this we agree. And I suppose that in your first post, had you continued your orginal thought (that of not having a soul, but being the soul...),then you would have taken the wind out of my sails. I must agree with you that we (our essence, the Us in this body) is soul, not that we have one.

We have a body, we have a mind, we are the spirit/soul, therefore you are right, we can't Have a soul, because we are the soul. But I still say that we are immortal, that us as souls are immortal.

Now some one (maybe it was you), said that the soul can only be or maintain immortality as long as it remains faithful. But I say the soul is born immortal, and perhaps, just perhaps can lose the immortality by deciding to have no faith. But that decision would not be made (if it were true) until after the soul left this physical realm.

Your beginning of your arguement, and the end of it (in your original post), reminds me of math student who skips writing down certain steps when working out an equation. The answer at the end may be right, but how can the reader tell without those steps in place? You may have figured them out in your head, and tried to shorten the length of writing to get to your main point, but because we don't know what steps lead you to your original hypothesis, we're left scratching our heads, and can only go by what we see before us.

Now, I know you do not believe in hell fire (or argued against it), are you implying that there is no consequence at all?, or just that there is no eternal fire? If your argument is that there is no consequence at all, then what is the purpose of trying to be decent, and finding faith, and treating others with respect? If your arguement is there is no hell fire, then what is the consequence for living a life holding faith in nothing, or worse, acting on evil impulse and harming self and others?

Again, the Lazuras/richman parable, holds far deeper meaning than its surface reveals:

You can't take it with you
You can't take it back
You can't warn others
You can't make amends
You can't order or conjoule your way out of it
You can't start again
You can't find comfort or solace
You can't stop the misery
You can't forget
You can't die (cease to exist)

If it is alright with you Ben, let's start again. Maybe hell fire is the fire of hatred, self loathing, anger, anguish, rage, fury, visciousness, that every failed human has, pooled into one spot, that the damned can never get away from.

v/r

Q

 

[Ben57]

Helo again,

This is a short reply to this point you asked about. (especially thw part in blue)

Now some one (maybe it was you), said that the soul can only be or maintain immortality as long as it remains faithful. But I say the soul is born immortal, and perhaps, just perhaps can lose the immortality by deciding to have no faith. But that decision would not be made (if it were true) until after the soul left this physical realm.

I think you are right and I did make a statement along those lines, I have not gone back to look for it but I assume I did not say (and if it did come across that way I appologise) that soul would remain immortall as long as it remains faithfull. I would have said the soul would stay alive as long as it remaind faithull. At this point I am going to assume we have a difference of opinion in the meaning of immortyal. To me to be immortal means that one can not die at all. Living forever is dependent on staying connected to the origenator of life and can die.

.....and tried to shorten the length of writing to get to your main point, but because we don't know what steps lead you to your original hypothesis, we're left scratching our heads, and can only go by what we see before us.

Point taken and agin I appologise for not being more clear on the subject.

Now, I know you do not believe in hell fire (or argued against it), are you implying that there is no consequence at all?,

No I am not implying that there is no consequences fo our actions.

....If your arguement is there is no hell fire, then what is the consequence for living a life holding faith in nothing, or worse, acting on evil impulse and harming self and others?

Now this is ver breif answer if you want a scriptual answer I will provide one but I will need time to phrase it with out goinig on and on and on as I did before (see Brian I am trying) and to be able to stae my point of view clearly.

So an over view...

The earth was made for man and man was made not to die but to live eternally on earth, Due to sin from Adam we all die. Gods purpose for the earth and humans has not changed. The earth is to be returned to the original state with thost that are doing the will of God remaining and living without dieing as long as the stay faithfull. Those that do not conform to Gods atndards will be forever gone, cease to exist. There is to be a resurection back to the earth of those that have died. No more will man rule over man but the highest authority will be God. No more will man die or get sick or hunger etc. Paradise is to be here on earth not in heaven.

I understand that that raises all sorts of questions so I only gave a brief outline of what I beleive the Bible teaches. As I said I will, if anyone askes give the scriptual bases for that belief

Hope to hear from you soon.

 

[Quahom1]

Helo again,


...The earth was made for man and man was made not to die but to live eternally on earth, Due to sin from Adam we all die. Gods purpose for the earth and humans has not changed. The earth is to be returned to the original state with thost that are doing the will of God remaining and living without dieing as long as the stay faithfull. Those that do not conform to Gods atndards will be forever gone, cease to exist. There is to be a resurection back to the earth of those that have died. No more will man rule over man but the highest authority will be God. No more will man die or get sick or hunger etc. Paradise is to be here on earth not in heaven.

I understand that that raises all sorts of questions so I only gave a brief outline of what I beleive the Bible teaches. As I said I will, if anyone askes give the scriptual bases for that belief...

Good day Ben,

Let's see, actually it would be appropriate to say "Good Morrow" Ben, since you are a day ahead of me and about 15 hours behind ( I used to live on Guam) ;-)

Your first part comes from the book of Genesis. Your second sentence above is an opinion you derived from reading the Bible, yes? Your third statement I'm presuming comes from the book of Revelations, and leads me to believe that a second death (non-existence) is the fate of humans who turn away from GOD, while the lake of fire is for Satan and his minions, for eternity.

But there is also reference in revelations to 1000 years peace on earth after the apocolypse, after which Satan is let loose again for a time, after which the old earth and the old Heaven will be replaced by a new Heaven and new earth, and a New Jeruselem...?

I would prefer your own words as opposed to actual scripture (paraphrase it for me), on what happens to the current dead, the dead of the future (during the 1000 years peace), and the rebelious at the end of time (as we know it).

Who ceases to exist? When? And who goes into the Biblical Lake of fire for eternity?

v/r

Q

 

[Ben57]

Hello Quahom,

Peace be with you and all that visit here.

I will start with part of your last question first (sorry no quote I just deleted it by mistake) where you aske adout the condition of the dead now.

I beleive that the dead now are dead... dust... they only exist in our memory. No part of their consciousness exists anywhere. They know nothing fell nothing. The dead both rightous and unrightoues will be resersected to enjoy life here on earth under Gods administration.

Your first part comes from the book of Genesis. Your second sentence above is an opinion you derived from reading the Bible, yes? Your third statement I'm presuming comes from the book of Revelations, and leads me to believe that a second death (non-existence) is the fate of humans who turn away from GOD, while the lake of fire is for Satan and his minions, for eternity.

As you wished I will simply state information as I see it with out quoting the Bible.

Yes I derive my ideas from reading the Bible and trying to see it as a whole. Yes I did refer to Genesis as to what Gods Pirpose is as well as to the words of Jesus when he was on earth as recorded by the 4 Gospel writters.

The third statement is based in part on Revelation, the words of Jesus as well as the writtings of the earlier prophets.

The "second death" (non existence) is the place for all those that fail to conform to Gods requirments....this includes people from the past, resuerected during the 1000 years of peace for a second chance... those that live to see the change in the adminidtration of the erath and those born after the change of administration how fail to heed Gods Words.

But there is also reference in revelations to 1000 years peace on earth after the apocolypse, after which Satan is let loose again for a time, after which the old earth and the old Heaven will be replaced by a new Heaven and new earth, and a New Jeruselem...?

There are a couple of issues here. So first to the letting loose of Satan. This, I beleive is to test every one on earth as to their allegience... God or Satan. It is after this test that those not wanting Gods administration enter the "second death". These ones cease to exist. This second death is figerativly refered as as the Lake of Fire. When something is burnt to the point of ashes, it can not be remade. So those that enter the lake of fire or second death cease to exist for ever. This will include Satan and his demonds.

The second issue here is the new Heaven and New earth and the new Jurusalem.

Again I do not beleive that the Bible here is talking of the literal heavens and earth or Jerusalem. We are told in the book of Psalms that the earth was made to remian forever. If it was to be renewed there would be a contridiction. God is said to reside in the heavens so if the heavens were to be destroyed where would he be. The Bible often uses the terms earth and heaven in figurative ways denoting the world of mankind (for the earth) and heavens for governments or rullerships. So I beleive that the new hevens and new earth are refering to a new new society of humans under a new government.

The new Jerusalem as mentioned in the Book of REvelation is far ro big to be loctaed on erath, being somewhat over three hundred miles high. Jerusalenm was the seat of true worship to the Isrealites and the center of their administration so the new Jerusalem pictures the new center of administration .... in heaven.

I hope that helps