The Messiah — Theosophy’s view

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, Nov 20, 2011.

  1. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    2
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lunitik
    In the same sense you think your body is you, the manifestation, the physical world is the body of God. I am not this body, this body is a small expression, just as a plant or a tree is a small expression.


    I do not believe most of us here (certainly Thomas) believes that "body is you" or "world is body of God". Those of us with a non-material monist point of view (who think mental and spiritual events are as real as physical ones) would point out that neither quotation is found in our responses. This is a product of your interpretation of what was said. We would probably agree with you second sentence, if the context of "plant" or "tree" as actually "a small expression of the vastness of experience" (or something like that).

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lunitik
    You say I am inconsistent with my non-duality, I simply do not limit it to the puny scopes that the mind usually works within. ALL in ALL, not just this body-mind and distinct consciousness, the sum of everything which exists to the far reaches of this Universe and beyond, as Science now believes we are a Multiverse of at least 11 Universes. I say those eleven are simply another system, that there are infinite Universes as well. Yet something pervades it all, that is God.


    Well, I think you pretty well speak for yourself here. "Puny scopes of the mind" denigrates the mental and spiritual experiences. "Mind" does not have to exist within... that is the point of saying mental events are real. There are some excellent references on panpsychism and panexperiencialism on "Process Philosophy" sites. See, in much the same way as I can see your physical reality (if I were there) I can see your mental reality. Where do you pick up this scientific bs you quote? There may be 11 dimensions (per string theory, a discipline within physics, within science). That does not translate into "Science now believes" or "11 Universes". Some string theorists postulate fewer, some more dimensions. Some physicists postulate an infinite number of universes (that is what "many-worlds theory is about").

    While we agree that G!d pervades them all, the reasoning you use to get there is no kind of formal reasoning at all, merely a parroting back of phrases which do not really understand.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lunitik
    In this respect, I find even the Bible to be limited in scope, it only says the Christians are part of one body, it doesn't even permit other life, let alone plants and minerals - I say everything that contains atoms consists of God. The keyboard you are typing on, the screen you reading this off of, both have atoms which are alive - they never stop moving. The very large and the very small, all is God because God is life, God is all there is.


    It really depends on how one reads that Bible (I presume you mean NT). There are plenty of pantheist, panentheist, panpsychic, and panexperiencial Christians (again, look up "Process Theology"). Just because you cannot interprete the Word so it applies to all life (and even sub-atomic particles) does not mean no one can. A Christian can have very very similar beliefs to yours and believe in the Word, and Christ and the Trinity.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lunitik
    God is a Christian word though, they can keep it... it is existence itself. I have to communicate in a way people will understand, but this word has been utterly killed, it no more has a significant meaning in our language.


    Ah, the word predates Jesus by many, many millennia. "Existence as G!d" is pretty much a pantheistic argument. Spinoza (in Western though) came up with it (in terms of Western Philosophy) a long time ago. And most Christians equates it with atheism. Well, things have changed during the last 400 years or so.

    For you the word may convey nothing (in English or any other language). For most of us, theist, atheist, agnostic, pantheist or panentheist it still has a significant meaning.

    Hint, just because "unicorn" does not signify anything you can see or taste or feel does not mean it has no meaning.
     
  2. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am replying to his statement that I am splitting soul and body, and suggesting to him that this limits the scope of non-duality. I am the one suggesting the physical world is as the physical body of God, this is not something I have taken from someone else.

    Mind is not consciousness, the thoughts floating around in peoples heads have no existential quality at all - although certainly changing your thought patterns can change your reality, for instance considering work as a play will result in less exhaustion because most people dislike working and this very view creates more work for them.

    That said, it is the attachment to the thought which starts fueling it. What attaches to the thought? Consciousness, I have tried to say this earlier in the example about anger...

    I would suggest your need for "formal reasoning" is the parrot in you. Nothing I say is a repetition of someone else, all is from me alone, from my encounters with that which I speak.

    You insist on pigeon holing my words to concepts you understand, try understanding my words directly without your filterings. Also, God as a word cannot predate Christianity because English doesn't even predate Christianity...

    What are these concepts significance to you? I simply say discover for yourself, and knowledge can certainly assist in that. Do not get caught up in gaining knowledge though, do not keep everything logical and attempt to understand them with mind - I am telling you it is impossible to know what is discussed through the medium of mind. They have been shared to give you the ability to go beyond mind, to encounter that which allows you to be aware of mind, of thoughts. Trying to create a belief system out of devices is just idiotic, find out what the device points to!
     
  3. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is it which is aware of your body, of your feelings, and of your mind? If you want to call it consciousness, it is perfectly fine, but what is it which is able to say "this is consciousness"? What is it which knows consciousness has gone when you have gone to sleep, and returned when you wake? What is the constant which has watched your body age? What is it which has learned social rules, that has seen you mature in speech and behavior? What is that constant?

    That is the fundamental of religion, that is who you are in truth... it is just that you have become attached to the changes, you have not realized that your essence has not changed one iota. Can you find out what it is? You cannot answer with language, whatsoever mind says, what has noticed this suggestion? Reject all offerings of the mind, find out that which is more subtle than mind, consciousness.

    Let us call this awareness, what is it which is aware of everything else?
     
  4. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,549
    Likes Received:
    26
    John 14:12 " I assure you: The one who believes in Me will also do the works that I do. And he will do even greater works than these because I am going to the Father.
     
  5. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    2
    Lunitik, you are presumptuous and dismissive little thing, aren't you?

    I never said that you stole "universe as G!d's Body", only that most of us believe G!d is not physical.

    We get back to mentality. You deny it. Fine, most of us realize that the Kosmos is not just material. And you never did say where you got your scientific bs from (which you obviously do not understand).

    As for "reasoning", I was making a comment about your lack of it. Going from "ALL in ALL" to "Yet something pervades it all, that is God" you have at least nine connecting statements (and 50 words) which indicate you think there is something connecting the two. Oh, and some of it "Science now believes we are a Multiverse of at least 11 Universes" does come from someone or someplace else (even if how you put it is factually inaccurate).

    Oh, I am sorry for having an intellect, for being able to compare your parrotings with science or your meaningless-strings-of-words into actual concepts. The G!d I refer to is not the English term (you make a mistake there) it is G!d. Gee, before English it was Gott or weruda God or weruda God or Duw. Which do you prefer? For they all mean the same thing.

    "esistence as G!d" (your implied words) are merely a restatement of Spinozan pantheism, nothing wrong with that. I do understand what you are saying (I just put a little more thought into it).

    See, we disagree, I have a mind as well as consciousness. G!d provided (thank you L!dy) me both. I understand with my consciousness, which is what fills my mind. I know you do not grok. No biggie. I grok. You don't. Why are you so hung up on mind? On reason? They are just metaphors for consciousness.

    .
     
  6. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    A starter point for M-theory.

    The definition for pervades that I am using is "Spread through and be perceived in every part of", if you would like to highlight where this contradicts, please do.

    I have earlier said that there are systems on top of systems, each circling one another, I am currently postulating that universes also circle in a collective group around something else. I have already said I pull from various jigsaws to express my experience, this is no different, but yes, M-theory specifics are from somewhere else - just as my quotes of Jesus are obviously not my own. It is because I have no authority of my own which you accept... I am merely making the point of just how small man truly is.

    No name is remotely relevant, no concept can touch it... it is because both limit God to your imagination, your conceptions. It is not possible to touch what is actually being pointed to in this way, you will have to experience directly to actually understand it. Of course, it is a popular passtime to speculate and debate the topic, but this will never help. This is why I have blocked this site from sending me e-mails. Once this conversation is over I will not return because people here think I am interested in debates, I am trying to show you directly but you will agree and disagree variously... it means people are ruled by mind when addressing me instead of engaging seriously.

    Do you think the thought has helped? Now you will expand to everything of his words, but you have not encountered the divine - it is because of your approach, you can let go this moment and know all that you have spent so long researching, but when you are still fueling ego with useless drivel you will always remain far.

    Try the device... what is aware of your consciousness and your mind both? You say you have both, thus something has observed them... what is that?

    It is because I know you have to get beyond mind to drink of the divine, I have journeyed there and am trying to clear the space for others. You do not want to conceive of a person almost half your age having encountered something you have not yet, but do you see this is because of your ego? The ego must die, and yet it is not even existent as is, but it struggles if you are too much clung to it. It is your own identification with it that fuels it...

    You are an old man, your body is breaking down, you can see how fragile it is. How much more fragile is an idea? At least the body has physical mass, your conceptions are nothing, and yet such hold over you! That is all the ego is though, it is the conceptualization of the "I", a mere idea, a belief system - all I say is find out the truth of this "I", what was its nature before people started telling you who they want you to be?
     
  7. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    See Mega Church establishments - this is what is meant, Jesus did few works in the way you are thinking. Also, I am not talking about works at all, I am discussing the extent of his enlightenment, his spiritual capacity. What Jesus describes spiritually in the Bible is just a kensho, and Christians describe this brief encounter as "grace". The largest crowd Jesus preached to according to the Bible is 5,000, the largest churches are I believe 10 times that... thus a greater work but they do not exceed his capacity.
     
  8. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,549
    Likes Received:
    26
    He was talking about spiritual capacity: union with "the Father:"
    John 14 larger context:
    1 "Your heart must not be troubled. Believe [a] in God; believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; [b] if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also. 4 You know the way where I am going." [c]

    5 "Lord," Thomas said, "we don't know where You're going. How can we know the way?"
    6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
    Jesus Reveals the Father

    7 "If you know Me, you will also know [d] My Father. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him."

    8 "Lord," said Philip, "show us the Father, and that's enough for us."
    9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. Otherwise, believe [e] because of the works themselves.
    12 " I assure you: The one who believes in Me will also do the works that I do. And he will do even greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in My name, I will do it so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me [f] anything in My name, I will do it. [g]

    15 "If you love Me, you will keep [h] My commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever. 17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn't see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be [i] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.​
     
  9. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, he describes what is in the experience of kensho when he talks about the Spirit of truth as a way to assure them he remains with them. He never teaches meditation, so Christians cannot go deeper into this. Jesus has probably meditated during the 40 days and 40 nights of lent, but the bible contains nothing about what meditation even is - what most Christians think is meditation is merely concentration or contemplation, and thus not the same thing.

    However, I would like to make a correction: verse 10 is a statement of his enlightenment, certainly.
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    10,419
    Likes Received:
    1,460
    Thanks ;)

    No

    It depends, I suppose, on how and where you locate that 'distinct personality'.

    The ancient understanding is the dualistic soul/body dichotomy, and all scientific evidence points to the same conclusion as the Jews made, and the Catholic agrees with, that it's not a soul in a body, but the body is the form of the soul.

    As I see it, the 'distinct personality' is not an overcoat of an individual being that can be discarded so the true soul being shines forth, there is not some 'inner me' released when the outer me is shucked off ... so I would say if the 'distinct personality' ends, then 'you' end, and what continues is a universal, life as such.

    And as God does not end, then although our end is in God, that is not an end in the sense of 'curtain down' ...

    Traditional Platonism works on the triad of rest - movement - becoming (stasis - kinesis - genesis), and the idea that the soul existed in beatitude, then fell from God, and the material world was created to catch the falling spark.

    St Maximus the Confessor rewrote the triad according to Christianity, in the order of becoming - movement - rest (genesis - kinesis - stasis). Thus God as First Cause brings forth creation out of nothing (genesis) and in its emergence it is moving, living, dynamic (kinesis) towards its end in God, its rest and its reward (stasis). Of course, man's journey into God (a la Bonaventure) is from the finite into the Infinite and, being infinite, the journey never ends.

    Christ says 'follow me' ... He is always on the horizon.

    One doesn't ... unless you mean the extinction of the soul, which is always possible ... then it's a cessation of existence, however you understand the term.

    I'm sorry, you misunderstand ... we do not try to become more, we are called to perfect what we are. Perfect what we are, and we perfect the cosmos in so doing.

    That seems a rather facile assumption based on not really understanding what the doctrine is about. At the sentimental level, it is entirely efficacious if it means one strives to do good, to be a better person.

    Luckily, in Christianity, one is not required to be a mage or metaphysician ... simple folks will do, and often will do better, in the eyes of God. Heart trumps the head, always. You can talk the most naive, sentimental, romantic nonsense, but if you heart's in the right place.

    There is a lovely story from the Moslem tradition.
    Christ was walking along the road and met a holy man. "what are you doing?" Jesus asked. "I have dedicated my life to God" the man replied. "And who takes care of your worldly needs?" Jesus asked. "My brother looks after all that" the man replied. "Then your brother loves God more than you do" Jesus told him, and went on his way.

    I see it as a dynamic process — Salvation History — marked by stages, yes, but really they're only pointers along the way.

    No. We are though, in way beyond we can dare to imagine.

    In the head yes, but in reality, no ... that's like making no distinction between a rhino and a unicorn, or a unicorn and an angel, or a unicorn and God. I think there are distinctions if you're going to live in the Real, the True, and so on ...

    It's like saying there's no distinction between the doctrine you embrace, and a fantasy. It reduces everything to a flat plane, and eventually strips everything of meaning.

    Yes. God is in a class of His own as it were, unlike anything in any other class, with absolutely nothing in common with anything else that might exist, either formal or formless.

    The Divine is an absolute condition — it cannot be made relative or conditional, least of all on man's say-so.

    Then I am saying the God of whom you speak is a construct that lies within the cosmological horizon. I'm asking you to look beyond.
    You keep saying what you see is all there is, I keep saying no, there is more.

    How can you, who chastises everyone for introducing distinctions, talk about 'planes'? :eek:

    That introduces more artificial distinctions than any dualism (although modern theosophy will give you a run for your money)!

    God is One, God is Unoriginate, God is beyond being, form, distinction, determination ... all this talk of planes, etc., is a construct, like the endless syzygies of ancient gnosticism which puts so many limitations and determinations and boundaries between God and man.

    In some aspects they serve as upayas, as the Buddhist say — an expedient teaching, but not necessarily ontologically untrue. All these planes and degrees and levels are just complications.

    In Christianity, God and man are immanently present to each other without intermediary, so no planes, levels, orders, etc., we cut through all that, to the one thing needful.

    As Islam says – God is closer to you than your jugular vein.

    You're introducing a false distinction. You being is your being, spirit, soul and body ... it's all one.

    Anyone can dream. If someone was to cut your body in half whilst you were having an o-o-b excursion, what happens then?

    Actually no ... it's revelation.

    Oh, Lunitik, what nonsense! You're anthropomorphising again.

    No, I said God is not creation.

    Yes

    I absolutely agree, God is immanent in and to creation, creation exists, from moment to moment, because God holds it in being ... but none of it is God, because God is not an atomic field, is He?

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  11. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly....
     
  12. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    2
    So dismissive, once again. You assume your way is the only way. The bottom line is that mind, consciousness, reason, reflexion, comptemplation are kind of all related concepts referring to "mental states". Self-awareness or self-consciousness are something beyond the category of "mental states". Beyond that beyond is what I point to... raw becoming stripped of all duality all externals with no internals. The eternal point, the tao. Is that G!d? As the unity which exists beyond all, yes. Is it this god or that god? No.

    But that point is available to all, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Sikh... whatever. Those terms are just constructs for the community (exoteric), the Religion. What matters is the core of what is being pointed to, the metaphysics, the axiology, the esoteric, the religion. Grok?

    I accept all (including yours) paths as equally possible of leading to the Divine. Usually it is always the Exoteric that says "one way" that baffles me. That just does not cohere with my experience... in my Father's house are many mansions.
     
  13. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    I dismiss absurdity, it is not that my way is the only way, it is that I know what you are saying is not a way. You have not attained to anything, so how can you judge what is possible or not? Why do you think you are in a position to say one way or another? You are utterly ignorant, but you think you have valuable insight because you have memorized so much crap.

    You speak to one that has attained as if you know better, it is just stupidity.
     
  14. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am done on this site, so do not bother replying.

    The divine is herenow, stop wasting your lives trying to understand it, let go and fall into it, encounter it head on... then all this nonsense can be forgotten because you will see it is irrelevant.

    In the past there is infinity, in the future there is infinity. Within us there are infinite levels of systems, above us there are infinite levels of systems, all circling each other. You can study all this, or you can simply encounter it... live it. There is no life in any book or scripture, stop looking for it there, it is all around this very second, seek it there and there is the chance you will find it.

    This very moment is where it all meets, meet it there and know what God is directly.
     
  15. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not sure what you are saying. I don't see withdrawing from serving others, clinging to parents in a double standard, or clinging to addictions, as being what Jesus did or asked others to do. If Jesus told you to do something, or leave your parents, what would be your re-action?

    You have a heavy focus on awareness. Awareness is good. Eliminating action for awareness... sorry, not so good. To know who we are, and to know who others are, requires doing... action. I get to know others by their actions, I am known by my actions, and I get to know myself by my actions. In some things I have been surprised. In some things, either I or others did not like what was found, and in some things I have chosen, and enjoyed the fruits of, change. What is your contemplation upon your actions? Existant, or non-existant?

    If you are asking me to not address you, I will not address you. I wish you well.
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    10,419
    Likes Received:
    1,460
    No it's not. Not at all.

    For a start it means that God could cease to exist ...

    So as much as you insist you know it all, you consistently demonstrate a lack of metaphysical rigour in your pronouncements.

    Yes you do ...

    I had a schoolteacher who used to say 'anyone who says Shakespeare is boring is an idiot." I think the same rule applies. All you're doing is advertising your ignorance and prejudice.

    Who's little mind is assuming limitations now?

    Except lilies, of course ... and sparrows, and sheep, children, figs, dogs, serpents, stones, bread, water, wine, seeds, grains, houses, stars ...

    You think God is a physical material then — because your every definition of the divine is dependent upon the material — as I keep saying, your God is intrinsically bound up with the material realm, my God transcends all.

    I wonder if what you read to be got is not actually your own reflection?

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    10,419
    Likes Received:
    1,460
    Hi luecy —
    I think I agree.

    The way we Catlicks see it, the blueprint of every created thing (from the nano- to the cosmic) exists eternally in the Logos of God as logoi ('ideas', for the want of a better term), a possibility, to be realised or not ... according to the Will of God.

    Every actual, existential thing, or being, then exists and has as its exemplar and goal, its logoi.

    We do not know that logoi ('know thyself', as it says at the temple at Delphi), but with God's help, we can get to it. One can get intimations of it, an harmonic resonance between you and it, and of course, if one hits the right note of one's own logoi, then it is connected to all other logoi, and you've just stuck your finger in the celestial grid, as it were, and your hair stands on end ...

    In Christianity, the venture is co-operative ... only on rare occasions does God force man's hand (listen to the prophets complain in the Scriptures!) — the rest of the time God's delight is that we put our shoulder to the wheel.

    So yes, we are the drops that the Do-er utilizes, but only if we say 'let's do it!' according to the Do-er's plan, and only if we do it because we're in love with the idea of it (not as an insurance policy, or Pascalian wager) ... then it's not God making us do anything, it's God enabling us to realise who and what we really are, realise our true vocation.
    "Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is."
    1 John 3:2

    Man, being more like a sheep than he realises, is a a self-willed and somewhat troublesome creature, who says 'actually God, if you just let me do it the way I think it should be done' and, as they say, the rest is history ...

    For which reason I would dispute it. The life here determines everything.

    The history is not lost, rather the drop that makes it to the ocean fulfils the history that was there before time began, and realises his or her God-ordered destiny ... the drop is now more real, in a sense, than this world of shades and shadows ...

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  18. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wanted to comment on something, but what is the point?

    Can't delete the post though.
     
  19. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    Curiosity has gotten the better of me: Does anything on this thread have to do with Theosophy's teachings on the World Teacher anymore? Did it ever? It almost looks like several discussions, or threads within a thread.

    The Christmas of the Angels (and Men) is approaching. I know there are plenty of Theosophists, as Christians and those of other Faiths, Who share common beliefs, focus, Spirit and Expectation ... this time each year.

    "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." -John 12:32​

    My interest would be, what does this Biblical passage say to us, as Theosophists. Or something along those lines. Might require us to scratch our heads, and then ask one! lol ;)

    ~ Or as some have put it, we must think outside the box ~
    May the Blessings of the World Teacher and Messiah find their Way into the Hearts of all this year. May we be a part of that, in whatever capacity we find that we are guided, as we seek to serve others and uplift them. And may the Word Itself become kindled or rekindled within us, burning stronger and Purer with each NEW cycle of the Seasons that pass.


     
  20. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,800
    Likes Received:
    60
    Andrew,

    The question of the World Teacher has definitely been lost in this thread. Your timing, to refocus this thread just before Christmas, is very good indeed.
     

Share This Page