You do not need ANYONE to show you the way

Discussion in 'Esoteric' started by Hermes, Dec 28, 2011.

  1. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I think you're painting a very black and white picture here, wil, saying that there is no room for questioning or exploring within the conventional religion (maybe it's this general statement that throws me off.) As an outsider I don't see what isn't thrown out with the bathwater. The only thing that seems to remain is a non-defined divinity. Why be a Christian when you no longer have any ties to anything that has ever been called Christian?
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    My ties are to Jesus's teachings.... that is where I find comfort and understanding.

    No room for questioning? Ask your preacher to have a monthly Q&A where the congregation can discuss/question what was said during the sermon or confusion on biblical interpretation. This is why my dad quit church...he asked every one, at every church my mom tried. He'd go the first time, and then when the preacher rejected the idea, he'd shake his hand and never return.

    We moved every couple years in my youth...he gave many a preacher a chance. He said the common response was along the lines of .....We can visit in my office anytime, I'd be glad to answer your questions. My dad responded, I don't want a one on one, if I have questions others do too, I want to hear their questions as well. Discussion is what happens in open forums and allows a free flow of information...not a one way I talk you listen scenario.

    I asked my preacher to add this to our format. He gladly agreed,, and has had monthly ask the preacher ever since.

    When I was a kid, ask a question...you were accused of not having faith...and being heretical... I love what I learn by reading and contemplating the teachings of Jesus...

    What do you think I should be a Jesusian instead?
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I was talking about the religious coin, pointless introducing something that rejects the currency altogether.

    No Immaculate Conception. No Virgin Birth, no Incarnation ... seems that's precisely what he has done. Thrown out the baby, kept the water.

    I've question you on all these point, Wil, and all you respond with is ad hominems on Americans.

    And yet fails to acknowledge that those inconsistencies are only superficially apparent, as the ample argument demonstrates.

    A safe harbour in their comfortability, more like.

    Why, though? I've never heard a satisfactory reason for that argument. Your assumption that ancient means out-worn is far from the case.

    Ah, c'mon. His methodology is demonstrably self-serving. As you say, 'it's all about me' and what a wonderful chap I am. Let's dispense with all the tiresome stuff that says we might not be quite so wonderful as we like to think we are.

    Tossing out stuff that seems incredulous or demanding, because it's incredulous and demanding, is hardly 'questioning and exploring'. It's eisegesis.

    Here we go. You're talking about America again, I suppose.

    LOL. I was told to question! And naive or platitudinous answers, from both sides of the coin, had to be backed up with solid argument. It was not enough just to invent circumstances that allow me to dismiss stuff that I don't like as 'made up' or 'agendas', etc.

    The fact is, one can neither prove nor disprove the immaculate Conception, the Virgin Birth, the Incarnation, the Miracles, the Mysteries. To say that can't have happened, because you find it incredulous, is not enough. That's 'blind faith'.

    You choose not to believe. OK. But then such a version of Christianity is, you must admit, rationalised until it's so insipid there's nothing left to find objectionable.

    Exactly. What is 'true' is what I like. If I don't like it, it's not true.

    Christ says 'pick up thy cross'. Spong says 'If it's uncomfortable, put it down.'

    It's not the real Christian Way.

    When you actually respond to the points I make, rather than defend your opinions by ad hominems, then I think we might get somewhere.

    When you address the Way as I see it, which is not a grey-bearded old man sitting in the clouds, you might actually start to see me, rather than your prejudice about what you think I see.

    Now you could argue that I'm doing the same thing, but I'm not. The picture of Christ you paint, sans Divinity, sans Mystery, sans Incarnation ... Christ is just another bloke ... very thin gruel indeed.
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    And where you find challenge ... you dismiss it for all manner of reasons.

    The logical inconsistency, as I keep pointing out, is if you dismiss this text, text, then why does 'B' not fall at the same time. Why are your favourite quotes not just more of the same old fireside fibs?

    Not doing it, Wil. Not justifying you on the basis of an ad hominem.
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    As an 'insider', I see it the same way you do.

    All that's left is the fluffy, feel-good stuff.
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Jeffersonian Gospels.... yup, our nation was founded by, our declaration of independence was written by...the same guy that rewrote the gospels to remove the virgin birth, the miracles...and just kept what was valuable teachings and removed the sensationalism... unfortunately we have returned to sensationalism and mythology...even about our founding fathers.

    undefined divinity? Doh! seems everything I've read about G!d says she is undefinable.

    Thomas, you were told to question? Good on ya! Mayhaps that is why religion is stronger here? Calling those that question heretics? Your island has been freed from the yoke.
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Again, on what basis 'valuable teachings' :rolleyes:

    But you're certainly right about inventing mythologies!

    And yet you say 'she' and tell me we are all divine?

    Isn't that a sensational statement?

    Illogical, captain! :D

    calm down, you're AH'ing again ... ;)
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I say She as opposed to the He.... you know I do not believe G!d to be a being with gender or a being at all.


    AHing?

    On what basis valuable teachings? On the basis of the readings of the reported teachings...I personally don't know if Jesus existed, but I do know the words exist...i've seen them on a page, and when I take them off the page, I find them valuable.
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Nor does orthodoxy. It's only you who keeps having a pop at what your perception of the childish belief of others.

    Matthew 18:3
    "And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

    Something to think about. Children are noted for openness to unalloyed wonder, not rock-hard skepticism.

    And Jesus referred to us as 'children' and God as 'Father' ... but that's not good enough for you?

    Ad hominems.

    Ah! reported teachings ... as opposed to the unreported? Or the one's you decide to be spurious? Reported, but then you don't trust any of the reporters!

    The advertising man's weasel .

    If the Gospels are fictions, where's the value?
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I didn't say they were all fiction, I said I didn't know if they were fact! Just as Jesus, I don't know either way, and frankly it doesn't amount to any difference to me either way!!

    (it may make a difference to others and that is fine....but if history discovers there was no Jesus...no rug is pulled out from under me...the stories contain the value)

    what value??

    surely you jest, there are tons of good allegory, metaphor....and yes I do believe we are the sons and daughters of G!d....Our Father which art in Heaven!

    But Santa Claus, Fairy Tales, Gulliver's Travels, Shakespeare, Aesops Fables, all have a use for our growth and understanding.... What Would McGiver Do?
     
  11. Dan0813

    Dan0813 Member

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    On my return path to my religion, I tried asking people questions about things I didn't understand. I found that to be mostly unproductive. There was a lot of inconsistency and hypocracy. And as you say, a lot of asking for money.

    Now I get my answers primarily by reading the classic texts. Occasionally I ask questions online at places that I trust.
     
  12. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Promise to keep me out of yours and Thomas battles? He and I see eye and eye on some things and not on others, I don't want you to feel cornered here.

    First, I have no idea what you are, Christian is perhaps exactly what you are. I just have a hard time seeing it from my limited point of view.

    But you seem to reject some of his stuff? And you add some other teachings. Sometimes it feels like you're Christian because it's home, it's where you belong in your head. But I haven't seen the cold logical reasoning.

    And this is your very own personal experience. It's very true for you. Based on our other discussion I feel you should realise this isn't Religion, or even Christianity. For some religions it is and for some Christian it is, but that's the people not what it is.

    You have the biggest of hearts, but then you turn around and your extremely condescending about anyone who feel there is great value in the miracles and the parts of the text that you dismiss. Very natural for people who has been through this and that, but I don't understand how you accept that duality in you so lightly. I feel it leads you to judge people out of hand.

    Sorry for being harsh, I just feel these are key issues that are never discussed properly.
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Wil, you believe in what you want, not for Truth's sake, but for yours – Truth or fiction? Doesn't matter, as long as it sounds right.

    The Christian Way is Metanoia, Kenosis, Theosis.

    It's a journey.

    You dispense with the first step, you're already right.

    You certainly dispense with the second, 'it's all about me'.

    You claim the third as yours by right.

    Jesus principle message is 'pick up thy cross and follow me.'

    Your message is No thanks, I'm fine as I am.
     
  14. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    I wonder how many times the two of you are going to say the same things to each other over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Not that it matters to me. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? Just saying.
     
  15. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    No, precision!
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Oh we'll go on forever.... Thomas will bear his cross, and I will love my neighbor.

    Oh, I may entertain my neighbor by balancing my cross on my nose while juggling gold, frankincense and myrrh
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    GK, ACOT, you're right.

    I'm done.
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Cool Thomas. Now I hope that doesn't mean done as in gone... as we all thoroughly enjoy you thoughts and insights.
     
  19. Dan0813

    Dan0813 Member

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    One could view Wil as the Evil Inclination. He's here to test your faith. :)
     
  20. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    Just to make my point clear, I am not condemning either Wil or Thomas for their beliefs. Neither is completely right or wrong. I was simply pointing out that they have been bashing each other with the same arguments since before I joined the site!

    If they are having a good time doing so endlessly, more power to them. If it has become a source of irritation and frustration, why keep doing it.
     

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