Spirits

[alexa]

Tell me, what people are closest to spirits, aside from us who do live among people who have the interest to talk about spirits.

There are only a few religions. One of them, called Spiritism has at least 14 millions in Brezil.

Before I name the others I would like to add the definition of spiritism as given in wikipedia :

Spiritism

is a generic term for various beliefs that claim the existence of immortal souls that can somehow be communicated with and interact with the real world (often through channeling) even after death. Many of those religions are reincarnationist. Often the word is used specifically to indicate Kardecist Spiritism, a religion founded by Allan Kardec in the late 19th century.

The others religions interested in spirits are :

- Umbanda is a religion that blends Catholicism, Kardecist Spiritualism and Afro-Brazilian traditions.
- Macumba (Brezil) is very close to European witchcraft.
- Candomblé or Batuque is an Afro-American religion.
- Vodoo or Vodun or Vodou or Vudu has its origin in west african religions in you can find it in Cuba, R. Dominicaine and others in Carrabian region.

If you want to know if I am a spiritist, Susma, the answer is no. I've found pharmaceutical field more suitable for my invoices.

Please give us your experiences or even just views about spirits, or any kind of encouters whatsoever with spirits.

And your contribution to this thread is ?

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Energy to effect change the change of energy...

Energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can be converted into energy and vice versa... nothing is lost.

Often I am hesitant to go into a subject because I don't know practically nothing about the subject that I am sure about, insofar as my personal knowledge is concerned, from experience or from my own examination of the subject, and my conclusions which I am myself satisfied with.

Energy and matter is one such topic that I have to confess I know practically nothing about. And what I learned in college I must admit here is not very enlightening either.

So, my stock knowledge just the same about energy and matter is also tantamount to the three statements Quahom1 puts forward in his post earlier.

If Quahom1 is around, perhaps this is my chance to get a more tight knowledge about energy and matter, from him, outside of the mantra:


Can you tell me, Quahom1, is energy needed to change energy to matter and to change matter to energy?

And if energy is needed to change energy to matter and matter to energy, will there be more and more energy or more and more matter until only one or the other remains, and then what...? No more changes?

Please explain to me in man in the street words, but I do possess a working intelligence as I have known of myself from all the IQ tests I have had to go through in life so far.

It is possible however that the subject is simply beyond my mental grasp.

Just the same, try explaining to me, as to a child whose knowledge about things and subjects is bound up with concrete and tangible everyday articles of life at home and in the neighborhood.

Pachomius2000

Thank you Sus for the oppertunity to attempt explanation.

Your question and thought behind the question remind me of what is called "The Entropy Effect". That is the assuredness that in time, all matter will eventually break down to its most elemental components. Matter is still there, but in its most basic, uncombined form.

At a sub-atomic level, we have discovered (so far) that matter actually is made up of energy vibrating (or wave), at very low frequencies.

As for matter requiring more energy to become energy, the reverse is also true. Energy requires more matter to become more matter.

Example:

If I take a piece of iron, weigh it then let it sit in closed atmosphere containing oxygen. After time the iron begins to rust. Rust is a slow form of burning (energy). Now re-weigh the rusted iron. Does it weigh less, the same, or more than the original piece of Iron?

How did the rust of the iron transpire?

Where did the energy come from to cause a change in the matter?

Was energy or matter lost or gained?

The answers are surprising, but can be repeated and observed and measured over and over again.

The rusted iron now weighs more than before, and is in fact two different types of material (uncorrupted ferrous, and corrupted ferrous oxide).

The actual atmosphere surrounding the iron now weighs less due to the loss of free oxygen.

The energy came from different types of matter contacting each other which released energy (chemical reaction) which caused the iron to change to a different material, and the atmosphere to change from its previous state, but...

The energy released from the ferrous/oxygen contact is now partially contained in the new matter (ferrous oxide) while the other part (heat) warmed the air, causing it to vibrate more, which brought more oxygen into contact with the iron, which...keeps the cycle going.

If one could contain all energy released from the burn, and contain all the atmospher and ferrous oxide, eventually the heat energy would cause the ferrous oxide to part into free oxygen(which would combine with nitrogen to become nitrous oxide) and ferrous. The heat would then cause the ferrous to come back together (molten), which would cool down, allow the heated atmosphere to cool down, causing the oxygen and nitrogen to break up.

Once equilibrium was achieved the entire process would begin again.

And if you could weigh all the ingredients for your experiment in totality, you would find that the overall weight never changed (atmosphere and iron combined).

This experiment was actually conducted in 1771 by Laurent Lavoisier.

This was also one of the building blocks to prove Einstein's formula of E=MC2, wherein Energy equals Mass (matter) times the speed of light, squared.

Any energy moving slower than the speed of light squared, becomes matter. This includes energy vibrating in place.

I hope I've satisfied your request for an answer Sus.

v/r

Q

 

[Erynn]

interesting topic..

although, i dont think its fair to call other forms of life, or rather other forms of intelligence "spirits" simply because they exist outside of our realm of understanding

for instance, air is intangible and invisible, which is the obvious character traits of 'spirits'

But do you attribute intellegence and will to air? Most people who believe in spirits assign those to them. In my world, there may be cloud or storm or sky spirits, but air is not itself a spirit.

personally, i think offering a "spirit" water or food is a bit of a stretch, i dont understand the significance of this practice if the being in question is not of this reality or this plane of existence

In most cultures where such offering is made, it's believed that the spirit touches or absorbs the essence of the food. In some cultures, like Hinduism, the food is then blessed by the deity and is holy for people to eat. In other cultures, like Scottish folkloric custom, the spirit eats the energy and leaves the food drained and unfit for consumption. Different people and cultures explain it in different ways. The Ulchi of Siberia leave food offerings and when they are eaten (by whatever happens by), the food has been accepted by the spirits -- even if it's somebody's hunting dog that ate it. The dog's got a spirit too, right?

maybe we should list the things that are commonly known about ghosts and spirits, for short

they are intangible-yet they are known to move or effect tangible objects
they are invisible to the naked eye, yet they seem to be able to appear/disappear at will
in the case of one of these members, they have the ability to read our minds and send messages via telepathy of some sort?
they are capable of making noise, or threats or seemingly mindless statements, but they seem to be incapable or unwilling to discussion
they know the future(this is a big one) and usually either give advice which best compliments the person or which best suits the spirit

Well, ghosts may or may not be intelligent spirits -- they may be a sort of "echo" of a person's emotions. And some spirits do hold conversations. This is what mediums and shamans participate in. Different kinds of spirits will know different kinds of things. The spirit of Aunt Mabel might be able to tell you all about canning, but never take a spirit's advice on playing the ponies. Just because they're dead doesn't mean they're omniscient.

ok, so from what ive listed above spirits are capable of a helluvalot, much more then most humans can or would normally claim..

so what entitles them to so much power? what entitles us to so little?

I'm not sure "entitlement" has anything to do with it. I'm not sure that spirits always perceive us any more than we always perceive them. Most people need to be in an altered state of consciousness to have an encounter with the spirit world -- through fasting, meditation, vision quest, entheogenic substances, breath control, or the like. Do most spirits have to go through an equivalent of such things where they exist? I know that sometimes I perceive them more easily than others, and sometimes it's more like just this feeling that they're around. I rarely get lengthy conversations with them but sometimes they point me in good directions. A lot of times I get messages of a sort from them in dreams, or flashes of intuition. I try to test what they give me for veracity when it's possible.

This certainly doesn't mean I have all the answers, but I think I have some that work for me.

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Re: Energy to effect change the change of energy...

Dear Quahom1:

I can't commend you enough for your explanation of the matter and energy conundrum. You are a good teacher to ordinary folks like me.

Now, if only the Buddhist enthusiasts can explain Buddhist concepts and principles the way you do matter and energy.

I am trying to analyze the question of spirits from my knowledge now better understood of matter and energy.

And I think this new knoweledge can be used also to assess Buddhism and religion, and draw the kind of attitude or mindset I am justified in regarding Buddhism and also religion in general.

Thanks a lot, and I hope to enlist your generous goodness again when I have puzzling questions of scientific matters.

For the rest of the posters here, please forgive my digression from spirits; but as we all know everything is related to everything, and knowledege of one is always very useful in grasping the significance or insignificance of knowledge of another.

Often people are talking from 'parallax' universes even though on the same material topic; like I am talking about spirits in connection with people who work on dead humans, like pathologists doing autopsy and morticians or embalmers, and someone else is talking about spirits in connection with spiritism, the practice of contacting spirits through so-called mediums.

Susma Rio Sep aka Pachomius2000

Thank you Sus for the oppertunity to attempt explanation.

Your question and thought behind the question remind me of what is called "The Entropy Effect". That is the assuredness that in time, all matter will eventually break down to its most elemental components. Matter is still there, but in its most basic, uncombined form.

At a sub-atomic level, we have discovered (so far) that matter actually is made up of energy vibrating (or wave), at very low frequencies.

As for matter requiring more energy to become energy, the reverse is also true. Energy requires more matter to become more matter.

Example:

If I take a piece of iron, weigh it then let it sit in closed atmosphere containing oxygen. After time the iron begins to rust. Rust is a slow form of burning (energy). Now re-weigh the rusted iron. Does it weigh less, the same, or more than the original piece of Iron?

How did the rust of the iron transpire?

Where did the energy come from to cause a change in the matter?

Was energy or matter lost or gained?

The answers are surprising, but can be repeated and observed and measured over and over again.

The rusted iron now weighs more than before, and is in fact two different types of material (uncorrupted ferrous, and corrupted ferrous oxide).

The actual atmosphere surrounding the iron now weighs less due to the loss of free oxygen.

The energy came from different types of matter contacting each other which released energy (chemical reaction) which caused the iron to change to a different material, and the atmosphere to change from its previous state, but...

The energy released from the ferrous/oxygen contact is now partially contained in the new matter (ferrous oxide) while the other part (heat) warmed the air, causing it to vibrate more, which brought more oxygen into contact with the iron, which...keeps the cycle going.

If one could contain all energy released from the burn, and contain all the atmospher and ferrous oxide, eventually the heat energy would cause the ferrous oxide to part into free oxygen(which would combine with nitrogen to become nitrous oxide) and ferrous. The heat would then cause the ferrous to come back together (molten), which would cool down, allow the heated atmosphere to cool down, causing the oxygen and nitrogen to break up.

Once equilibrium was achieved the entire process would begin again.

And if you could weigh all the ingredients for your experiment in totality, you would find that the overall weight never changed (atmosphere and iron combined).

This experiment was actually conducted in 1771 by Laurent Lavoisier.

This was also one of the building blocks to prove Einstein's formula of E=MC2, wherein Energy equals Mass (matter) times the speed of light, squared.

Any energy moving slower than the speed of light squared, becomes matter. This includes energy vibrating in place.

I hope I've satisfied your request for an answer Sus.

v/r

Q

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Autopsy, embalmment, spirits

Dear Alexa:

I ask this question addressed to all who read messages here in this forum:

Do we have any kind of medical professional here who is doing the examination of a cadaver for the purpose of autopsy, and also any embalmer?

Please give us your experiences or even just views about spirits, or any kind of encouters whatsoever with spirits.

Can you tell me your reactions to the following questions:

1. In our 'stock' knowledge, there are two kinds of spirits, the ones that enliven or inhabit living humans, and are supposed to continue to be existing after their biological demise; and the ones that are without any biological hosts. Yes or no?

2. Does it make sense that if people want to be nearest to spirits of the first kind, they should hang around deceased humans; because their spirits could be assumed to also be still hanging around or sticking around -- yes or no?

3. Who are the people nearest physically and thus also 'psychically' nearest to deceased humans, pathologists doing autopsy on cadavers and embalmers doing preservative and cosmetic work on cadavers -- yes or no?

4. Shouldn't we then consult them about spirits, their experiences of if any or their views of -- yes or no?

For example, if I want to know about the practice of prostitution and how prostitutes feel about their work, morally, psychologically, financially, medically, sociallly, etc., shouldn't I consult people nearest to prostitutes, like pimps, regular customers, and of course the prostitutes themselves.

I definitely will not consult religious mentors like pastors, evangelists, priests, lawmakers (unless they are also into the activities of the characters mentioned in the preceding paragraph, concurrently with their professed careers.

Pachomius2000

There are only a few religions. One of them, called Spiritism has at least 14 millions in Brezil.

Before I name the others I would like to add the definition of spiritism as given in wikipedia :



The others religions interested in spirits are :

- Umbanda is a religion that blends Catholicism, Kardecist Spiritualism and Afro-Brazilian traditions.
- Macumba (Brezil) is very close to European witchcraft.
- Candomblé or Batuque is an Afro-American religion.
- Vodoo or Vodun or Vodou or Vudu has its origin in west african religions in you can find it in Cuba, R. Dominicaine and others in Carrabian region.

If you want to know if I am a spiritist, Susma, the answer is no. I've found pharmaceutical field more suitable for my invoices.



And your contribution to this thread is ?

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Energy to effect change the change of energy...

Dear Quahom1:

I can't commend you enough for your explanation of the matter and energy conundrum. You are a good teacher to ordinary folks like me.

Now, if only the Buddhist enthusiasts can explain Buddhist concepts and principles the way you do matter and energy.

I am trying to analyze the question of spirits from my knowledge now better understood of matter and energy.

And I think this new knoweledge can be used also to assess Buddhism and religion, and draw the kind of attitude or mindset I am justified in regarding Buddhism and also religion in general.

Thanks a lot, and I hope to enlist your generous goodness again when I have puzzling questions of scientific matters.

For the rest of the posters here, please forgive my digression from spirits; but as we all know everything is related to everything, and knowledege of one is always very useful in grasping the significance or insignificance of knowledge of another.

Often people are talking from 'parallax' universes even though on the same material topic; like I am talking about spirits in connection with people who work on dead humans, like pathologists doing autopsy and morticians or embalmers, and someone else is talking about spirits in connection with spiritism, the practice of contacting spirits through so-called mediums.

Susma Rio Sep aka Pachomius2000

Thank you Sus,

But I think the laws of physics and the laws of man's thinking are like comparing apples to oranges...very hard to do. It is black and white versus shades of gray, and leaps of faith, and - what is the term?.. oh yeah, "intuition", versus logical steps and expected results.

I can't logically explain Christian concepts and principles, and I are one (or try to be). In fact I once tried to explain PI as the signature of God (due to its infinite decimal placement), and got myself into a whole lot of trouble. So I share what I know, and actively ponder what I don't know.

I know that without electricity (energy), the human body (matter) does not function. I know that if the human body does not function, the life force (energy?), can not be contained within said body, and therefore departs.

So, If the life force is indeed energy contained within matter (a body), that is activated by other energy (electricity), then Lavoisier's experiment in 1771 literally proved the immortality of the spirit of a man!

Logic dictates that if energy plus matter equal more energy, then energy minus matter equals energy (albeit a lesser amount). In otherwords, something is left behind, not lost. The matter (body) may no longer be capable if interacting with the potential energy present, but that does not mean the energy is gone. It merely means the energy and matter are no longer suitable to interact with eachother, and therfore separate. Thus you have the potential for 'ghosts'.

It is a hard row to hoe, I know ;-), but the fact that energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed, is hard and proven. Human spirit as a 'force' to be reckoned with is also proven.

The only question left to prove is this...is the spirit of a human (one's life force), a form of energy? If yes, then the possibility of 'ghosts' is definitely real.

v/r

Q

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

What's in it for you and me?

I am exposing myself to the stigma of being money-obsessed, just the same I will go ahead, and anyone can tell me where I am wrong.

Erynn tells us:

. . . .
I can't say that I can really explain them, but they make themselves known to me. They come to me in dreams, or gather around me and "tell" me things nonverbally, which often give me clues about things happening energetically around me. They help me and work through me when I do healing work. They are agents of change to whom I pray and make offerings. They are the powers within the land who allow me to live here and to prosper when they are happy with me.

They are shapeshifters, taking many forms. Sometimes they are in the shapes of animals, but sometimes they are a blend of human and animal. Other times, they are just a palpable "feeling" around me, or a voice in the back of my head.

If the one around you doesn't feel threatening, then you might want to try talking to it. Maybe leave something out for it as you would for a house spirit -- perhaps it wishes to communicate with you, to help you with something, or to ask something of you.

Is there any chance, Erynn, of putting this relationship with spirits into an act which can be marketed like in a circus? Imagine the income such a display will earn for the person with such a gifted contact with spirits.

As far as I know, no one has really made it big in the way of cashing in on money, not with spirits, except the small timers offering to get in contact with them for answers to matters you would want to know about -- on the assumption that they know things which we don't (as though being spirits gives them the property of omniscience and infallibility).

Castaneda made a lot of money with books. After the first one he discovered his real gift of making money with more of the same stuff about contacts with outer worldly denizens.

No, I confess I have not read any of his works except browse about them in bookstores, and reached the conclusion that I have better use of my time and funds. What did he do with his sizable earnings? Open a center for the study and cultivation of contacts with spirits?

The better study is not about spirits but about people who are into spirits, like Castaneda, who made a fortune from writing about them and his encounters with them. The conclusion you will reach I am sure, is that they make money from spirits.

What about people into conventional religion? The same conclusion, for me. But I must admit that religious people and people into spirits make money legally and could be ethically; because they do cater to a need.

My only caveat to them: make sure you don't end up in court with any charges of physical, mental, or moral damage, or financial embezzlement.

Yes, there is also another benefit from knowledge and discourse in regard to spirits, it is good entertainment.

Do they exist?

I think animals like dogs know about the spirit that leaves the human body when a human person is dying, or maybe also other animals or living entities; which does not mean that the spirit continues to exist apart from the living human.

In the neighborhood when the dogs are howling, they seem to be saying that someone is in the throes of death -- my own observations. What do you guys say?

Why do they howl upon sensing the subtle odor of death or dying? Perhaps thousands of years before it meant time to eat.

Pachomius2000

 

[alexa]

[QUOTE original posted by Susma Rio Dep]Often people are talking from 'parallax' universes even though on the same material topic; like I am talking about spirits in connection with people who work on dead humans, like pathologists doing autopsy and morticians or embalmers, and someone else is talking about spirits in connection with spiritism, the practice of contacting spirits through so-called mediums.[/QUOTE]
Dear Susma,

I agree we speak about the same subject but from different perspective. As I could see you have no experiance with spirits and you didn't find anybody to speak about them.
I gave you only a few religions as referrence to show you there are more people interested about spirits than you think.
I'll try to answer to your questions. Maybe we can find ourselves in the same universe this time.

1. In our 'stock' knowledge, there are two kinds of spirits, the ones that enliven or inhabit living humans, and are supposed to continue to be existing after their biological demise; and the ones that are without any biological hosts. Yes or no?

No. Please see the classification about spirits in my previous post on this thread. What you call a spirit who inhabit living humans, I call it soul. Zaden gave you a very good explanation about the energy left behind, but not lost. This kind of energy represents for me a spirit and it may come from a human, an animal or a plant. Only those with an acute sensivity, as Erynn can access to this info-energy.

2. Does it make sense that if people want to be nearest to spirits of the first kind, they should hang around deceased humans; because their spirits could be assumed to also be still hanging around or sticking around -- yes or no?

No. Maybe at the beginning, but not after let's say 100 years. A ghost can be attracted wherever it can find the same thing he/she was obssed with when alive.

3. Who are the people nearest physically and thus also 'psychically' nearest to deceased humans, pathologists doing autopsy on cadavers and embalmers doing preservative and cosmetic work on cadavers -- yes or no?

No. See above.

4. Shouldn't we then consult them about spirits, their experiences of if any or their views of -- yes or no?

No. They are specialists used to close their personal feelings inside of them in order to be objective for the diagnose.

Spirits are in a parallel universe for us. They do not care about the life we have. They have their personal issues to deel with. You cannot expect to help you with money. Those who tell you they can, are just frauds.

Alexa

 

[Quahom1]

Alexa, Susma,

It is my experience that unless the living have a damned good reason, it is not wise to drag passed on spirits back to a lower level of existence. In fact the only reasonable decision to bring a spirit back here was Biblically based, and the result was not quite perfect. Jesus raised Lazurus, and from scripture, Lazurus was not all together here when he walked out of the tomb. I don't think he was very happy at all. He did Jesus a favor, but the cost was high for Lazurus. He was never the same man as before he died.

It is also my opinion that bringing other spirits forth into this level of existence is equally unwise. Sort of like taking quantum laws of physics and forcing them into macro universe of physics.

Alexa, just because some of us do not choose to talk about the worlds of spirits, does not mean we are ignorant of them. Perhaps it was thought best not to bring the issue up (in some's opinions). Certainly not for profit.

v/r

Q

 

[alexa]

Hi Quahom1,

It is my experience that unless the living have a damned good reason, it is not wise to drag passed on spirits back to a lower level of existence.

I agree.

Alexa, just because some of us do not choose to talk about the worlds of spirits, does not mean we are ignorant of them. Perhaps it was thought best not to bring the issue up (in some's opinions). Certainly not for profit.

Sorry, but I didn't start this thread.

Alexa

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

indians?

sawadee all,

the only sprit seeing/interacting people i believe were the native-indians in america, though i have no proof in that, i can sense that being united with the nature should have opened the way to communicate with some unidentified earthly objects (UEO).

this totally means that i do believe in UEOs. questions going on in my mind..

who decides these spirits will get in touch with? are they here with us always/ do they have some kind of special places in these grounds? created by god itself? has any religion other then islam referred to these UEOs? (i have stated somewhere in this forum that quran says there are spritis that can be contacted)
dogs barking? here whenever the morning prayer calls most dogs howl... sounds scary to tell the truth..
i dont know really, on my physicall and spritual journey i have done in s.e.asia for 2 years i have called them.. in the small mountain villages, in the jungles of cambodia, in the island of koh sahmed, in the lonely pansion near the cambodian border, what i got was pure loneliness and the voice of my own brain. i wanted a voice, a small sign that could help me clear out everything i have on mind.
i wasnt the right guy? magical words had to be said? 2 years of inside journey is not enuff, what if i saw/hear them? those questions are remained there as ive known that sprits even they do exist i didnt see them, i didnt sense them..

respectfully yours. erai

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Quahom1,


I agree.


Sorry, but I didn't start this thread.

Alexa

Alexa, forgive me if I caused a misinterpentation. I was not implying you did anything. I thought I was answering a question you posed.

Again I apologize for any mis-understanding I may have caused.

v/r

Q

 

[Erynn]

Re: What's in it for you and me?

Is there any chance, Erynn, of putting this relationship with spirits into an act which can be marketed like in a circus? Imagine the income such a display will earn for the person with such a gifted contact with spirits.

Well, some people do hang up shingles as mediums or shamans, or whatever, and make money at it. There's some guy on US television who claims to speak with the dead in front of an audience for his show every week -- that seems pretty much like a circus to me. While I have occasionally offered my services for money, it's usually not much money, as I don't like that form of exchange very much. Contact is rarely absolute or totally controllable. The spirits have their own agendas, and from what I can tell, most of them would not lie to be treated as some circus act. Mostly what I've charged money for have been things like tarot readings, for clearing out and blessing a space, or for writing rituals for others who can't do it for themselves.


About Castaneda:

No, I confess I have not read any of his works except browse about them in bookstores, and reached the conclusion that I have better use of my time and funds. What did he do with his sizable earnings? Open a center for the study and cultivation of contacts with spirits?

I've read several of his books, but have also read a number of other things about him and generally consider him a fraud. I am pretty sure he opened a school for his own students, but he was extremely recluse and did not allow much information about himself to be available. He was excellent at making money, but I have no idea what he did with it.

The better study is not about spirits but about people who are into spirits, like Castaneda, who made a fortune from writing about them and his encounters with them. The conclusion you will reach I am sure, is that they make money from spirits.

I think people who are primarily into it for money are more likely to be frauds than people genuinely in contact with spirits. Information from spirits is not always reliable -- spirits are not infallible. They can be wiser than us in some regards, but most spirits have limited experience with things like money, gambling, etc.

I think animals like dogs know about the spirit that leaves the human body when a human person is dying, or maybe also other animals or living entities; which does not mean that the spirit continues to exist apart from the living human.

In the neighborhood when the dogs are howling, they seem to be saying that someone is in the throes of death -- my own observations. What do you guys say?

Why do they howl upon sensing the subtle odor of death or dying? Perhaps thousands of years before it meant time to eat.

I do think that many animals, including cats and dogs, are more sensitive to the presence of spirits than your average human being. That being said, sometimes dogs just howl to hear themselves do it, or because their ears hurt, or because they're "singing along" with somebody's instrument or voice.

Spirits are all around us, but I don't believe that everything that happens is related to them.

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Conditioned fear and logical fear

I am afraid of ghosts or spirits, more correctly: the kinds that can frighten me, namely, those that cause physical harm to me, or give me an unaesthetic encounter, like those portrayals from artists and Hollywood of demons. Demons are spirits, yes?

But on analysis of my own feelings, that kind of fear is what I know to be a conditioned fear, not a logical fear. Logical fear is like that fear of being hit by a falling bullet fired by an idiot shooting into the sky in a crowd where I happend to be also present. And there are idiots who think that falling bullets are harmless.

Brian appears to not acknowledge the existence of spirits. What about me? There does not seem to be evidence enough to warrant a proof that I might consider to be beyond all reasonable doubts to their existence. But as I said earlier, I am afraid of them just the same.

My wife and I once considered buying a haunted house, imagining that it would go for a much cheaper price. We heard of haunted houses and not occupied; but owners are demanding the same market prices. Know of any houses with the habitual presence of spirits, on sale for prices lower than the market's?

For the present, spirits are all in the mind. If your mind has never been informed by others about them, or you have never drawn any rash conclusion about their existence, then for all practical purposes they don't exist. And we can all spend our time more profitably in speculating about what will 'equanimitize' the al-Qaeda folks.

Pachomius2000

PS About buying or living in a haunted house, make sure that no humans are transgressing the place in stealth.

I don't normally take much notice of the concept of "spirits". The term and other people's description always sounded like metaphor - of information generally cleansed to be comprehensible to the human mind, and mixing with the emotional state of the person.

About a week ago my family left for short holiday with relative while I got on with work at home - so the house is emptier, and noises are more marked.

However, from the hallway behind me there is a constant sense of "being watched".

It's not malignant - there's little sense of anything though, excepting of...being wathed, and from a specific location, being the hallway to the room where I work (which also happens to be directly behind myself).

On the emotional site I guess I feel a little more exposed and alert - so there is definitely that factor.

However, I'm used to benig empathically aware - of walking down a street and knowing when and from where people are looking at me. When I feel it on the street I look around and usually straight into the eyes of someone, who'll often quickly look away.

But the odd thing is - it feels like the same sense being tripped. It's a total sense of presence, but I can't read the emotions, other than there's nothing threatening...almost curious...as if watching for the sake of watching.

Heh, beginning to sound like late-night paranoia.

It is a fascinating feeling through - and with that, a general invitation on the cnocept of "spirits" - do they exist?

Regardless of what I've written above, I'll still say "no" in terms of the familiar "disembodied spirit" notion.

 

[Erynn]

Well, it's true that there are spirit entities out there than can Eat Your Head. There are ways to avoid that, though, which usually involve good psychic hygiene like staying grounded and centered, and doing energy work like shielding.

I'm not sure why a person frightened of spirits might want to buy a haunted house, though.

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Haunted houses are houses first...

Well, it's true that there are spirit entities out there than can Eat Your Head. There are ways to avoid that, though, which usually involve good psychic hygiene like staying grounded and centered, and doing energy work like shielding.

I'm not sure why a person frightened of spirits might want to buy a haunted house, though.

Actually we thought that we could get a house cheaper if it were haunted by spirits, because then the owner would not be asking a fair market price owing to his desire to get rid of it.

We learned however that when it comes to money, haunting by spirits does not devalue a house.

The conclusion is that spirits don't count in the down to earth matter of evaluating the real material worth of a house.

Is this respect spirits are like the dirt that might be soiling money bills but which we still keep and guard carefully, I mean the money; the spirits don't count for nothing -- I mean the dirt.

The point I want to bring out is that I don't really fear spirits or take them seriously; so that if a haunted house were to be sold cheaper for being haunted, the haunting would not deter me in any way from buying it because it would be a good bargain, specially when it is bigger and better than the house we are actually occupying.

Tell me if you still miss the message I am trying to convey.

Am I afraid of spirits? only if they are like falling bullets idiots fired into the sky; otherwise the fear is more of an accustomed reaction that can be easily dismissed like an impure thought when a person is striving to be chaste in his mind and heart.

Pachomius2000

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

reference to quran

Jinns/gins= shape of first creature Iblis. Like Jins as Human on
people. And Iblis like Adam as name person. Human like creatures living in the same places as we do.

What mohammed (or allah himself dunno dont care, as allah refers to only some part of humans i cant see it as the ONE, so even he made mohammed wrote quran that still doesnt make sense though thats not the point in here) told in quran is that there's bad gins and good gins. which might be roughly translated as sprits.

If one human being will face with a good gin he will be informed with good news and goodwill (of the dead ancestors probably) but if he is to be faced with bad gins pity on him as he maybe cursed, his family or loved ones or himself is/will be in such horrible events.

So to sum up (quick summing huh?) if you are a muslim some gins can be really scary, in my childhood i was warned by my grandies that if i piss on ashes (literally) bad gines will be following me. So i have to act cautiously where i piss )) There's also another issue that happened but i guess i dont have the time to tell that right now.

I still wonder what does the religous beliefs around you says about sprits?




regards
erai

reading "NasIL YapmaLI - Nikolai Gavriloviç Çernişevski", kinda interesting how russian authors prepared the russians for communism...

 

[Lady_Selune]

Greetings all and well met,

Just came across this thread and had to post. As I mentioned in another thread I am shaman. Like Erynn, part of my belief system encompasses spirits. For me they are commonly referred to as a totem of some sort and will often take the shape of an animal or plant. They are not however limited to those things.

Interesting experience you have had Brian, I would agree with Erynn, give the “thing” watching the ability to covey its message to you. Your ‘offering” does not have to be food it can and should be whatever you pick up that “feels” right.

Recently I was visiting with my Uncle in the Northeast. We had decided that we would play tourists and go and see all the things there were to see in Philadelphia, New York, and Washington D.C. For me it was the first time I had actually played tourist and for the most part was having a wonderful time, right up until we visited Ellis Island. (For those of you not familiar with it, Ellis island is an island very close to the island that the Statue of Liberty sits on and was used from 1836 – 1956 as the primary location for people coming to this country.) As we took the ferry from Liberty Island over to Ellis I began to develop a small headache. I actually thought nothing of it as I had shielded myself fairly well at the beginning of our site seeing. After all we were going to many places that had some rather dark history and there are certain things I would rather not have to deal with.

At any rate I paid little attention to that fact, and of course, I was soon to regret not doing so. We got to the island and my Uncle and I departed the ferry looking forward to spending the rest of our day exploring Ellis Island. (It should be noted that my Uncle is by marriage not blood and does not know of the path that chose me) We were of course not alone on the island and I didn’t think much of the people I had began to see, if they were dressed a bit differently I just marked that down to them being from different areas of the country or even from other countries. I didn’t think too much about that either. The one thing that I did pay attention to was the fact that my headache was really starting to become overwhelming and that I was starting to feel physically sick. Since I am not one to make over feeling ill, I told my Uncle that I need to rest for a few minutes and encouraged him to go ahead with his exploration that I would catch up with him in a minute or two.

After taking the time to get myself all but under control, I went in search of my Uncle. The place was packed with site seers so it was not easy task to locate one person. I was making my way down a crowded hall (ok, so I now know that the hall was empty expect for me and my Uncle) I saw my Uncle and called out to him. That is when I felt someone take my hand. Naturally I looked to see who was bold enough to actually touch me in such a manner. It was a woman that I had not noticed before because she had been sitting with her legs drawn up against the wall. There was a very small child lying next to her. Now, I am not a doctor, but it was clear that the child was very ill. Naturally I immediately told my Uncle, who had come to stand next to me, to get help. He did go and get help, not because he was seeing what I was but because as I later found out, he though I needed it.

By the time help arrived of course I had come to realize what I was seeing and to realize that I could not change the echo of the past but could do nothing more then bear mute witness to it. The mother of the child was a spirit, the child itself, nothing more then an echo. The mother could not then or now accept the death of her child and has thus doomed herself to repeating the horrible moment. I did what I could to fix her state and was pleased that I was successful in doing so. However, it also ended my butt up in an emergency room at a local hospital. I had failed to response properly to my Uncle or those that he had bought to help me. ((offically I was suffering from heat stroke, I left it alone and did not mention to anyone that I live in Florida, have most of my life, heat is not a problem for me, nor did I have any of the true syptoms heat stroke, but it was easire to explain that then what had actallu happened.)

In a strange way the fact that I was removed from the island is a good thing. I would have most likely seriously damaged myself going there unprepared as I had. Will I go back? I don’t honest know. I know what is there, I know what people like me could do there. I also know as a mother of two that feeling the heartbreak of a mother losing her child is not something I want to go though again any time soon. Of course, it is the path I have chosen or chose me depending on how you look at it.

Three days later we went to visit the site where the Twin Towns used to stand. This time I was prepared and although I know what is there and waits, I chose at that time to back away from it for personal reasons. The same reasons that I chose not to travel in most of the European countries.

Spirits, echoes of the past, strong emotions that tie a “soul” to a place are always around us at all times. We must choose when and how we interact with these things, if we do it at all. I truly believe that I have no special gift to see these things, I believe that anyone can, if they so chose.

 

[iBrian]

Interesting experience - and welcome to CR, Lady Selune.

Echoes...ah, now that in itself is a very interesting idea.

 

[alexa]

Spirits, echoes of the past, strong emotions that tie a “soul” to a place are always around us at all times. We must choose when and how we interact with these things, if we do it at all. I truly believe that I have no special gift to see these things, I believe that anyone can, if they so chose.

Hi Lady_Selune,

In my opinion, you do have a special gift. And no, not every one can see them, only those opened to the source. I mean, a person interested only for money, has no chance to interect with a spirit, at least not in the way he would expect to. You know you have to open your heart to listen them.

I can only feel their presence in an awaken state and sometimes I can see them in my dreams.

Sorry, I have to go now.

See you soon,

Alexa