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- London, UK, Malkhut she'be'Assiyah
don't be so absurd.Ben Masada said:Please BB you are reasoning as a Christian.
it's not *paranoia*. it is simply a matter of what judaism considers normative and what it does not. and my loyalty to G!D is none of your affair and i can't see why you feel the need to make such a statement, although you seem to have a habit of turning unpleasant and patronising when someone contradicts you.What is all this paranoia about an afterlife? Is it what induces you to exercise your loyalty to God?
and that's supposed to be an argument, is it? i can prove to you that 'olam ha-ba is a folk dancing holiday on jupiter - one has never returned from there. now can you disprove it? look, i cannot see how you can possibly think that your position represents how judaism thinks; certainly the sages of the talmud do not agree with you:Do you know something? I can prove to you that the olam ha-ba is the grave. One has never returned from there. Now, can you disprove it?
"Shabbat is 1/60 of 'olam ha-ba" (BT berakhoth 57b) - are you arguing shabbat is like the grave?
"The world to come is unlike this world. In this world, [G!D's Name] is written one way, yet it is pronounced another way, but in the World to Come, the Name will be pronounced the way that it is written." (BT pessahim 50a) - so is there pronunciation in the grave?
"Praised is one who arrives in The World to Come with his learning at hand" (BT pessahim 50a) - so you *can* take it with you?
"The first question posed to a person in the world to come will be: 'Were you trustworthy in business?'" (BT shabbat 31a) - so there's a quiz in the grave?
"Light will be plentiful in the World to Come" (BT pessahim 50a) - so there's light in the grave?
"we will have understanding of [difficult sections of Torah such as] metzora and tumat ohalim" (BT pessahim 50a) - so we carry on studying in the grave?
BT bava metzia 62b-63 contains a discussion about those in the next world being aware of the Torah study of those in this world. does that sound like the grave to you?
BT gittin 56b-57a contains a discussion about who is considered "great" in 'olam ha-ba, according to reports by the roman emperor titus, the midianite prophet bil'am and various jews who sinned in 'olam ha-zeh. does that sound like the grave to you?
and that's before i even get into the discussions of the "yeshivah shel ma'alah", or the messianic age - but none of these appear to be about the grave from the point of view of the sages. which brings us to your next point:
i presume you're looking for a more complicated answer than "you haven't actually understood the 'scriptures' you think you've learned it from". or, alternatively, you are taking the scriptures out of their jewish and rabbinic context; now *that* would be reasoning as a christian.How is it that the Scriptures do not support my point of view if it is from the Scriptures that I have learned it?
the quote from job suggests death, i agree, but it certainly doesn't mention 'olam ha-ba. and wrt koheleth, look at berakhot 18a-b for a discussion of how the righteous are considered "alive" even in death whilst the wicked are considered "dead" even while alive.Read Job 10:21 and Ecclesiastes 9:5,6.
if that is your position it is hard to see how it is a jewish one.The sages cannot disagree with it. If they are not speaking metaphorically they were not sages but fools.
yes - neither of them mention 'olam ha-ba.Have you checked Job 10:21 and Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 above?
i could go with "out of existence in the form it has taken up till now", but you have provided no support whatsoever to your position - you're simply substituting a new assertion and suggesting that the source that you cite is open to only one interpretation and, frankly, i can tell you that it's a lot more complicated than that.Not everything about soul is mere speculation. The Torah truth about soul is that we ARE souls, when, according to Genesis 2:7 we BECAME living souls when we were created. Therefore, soul is not something we have but what we are and that it is gone with death. Not gone somewhere but just out of existence.
well, if he was a wise sort of chap, then perhaps he meant something more complicated than you do. solomon doesn't get a very easy ride in the rabbinic sources, either.Could it be that Solomon was rather a fool and not the wisest of all men to write Ecclesiastes 9:5,6? I doubt it.
so are assertions not backed up with reasoned argument from the sources concerned.Theories and religious doctrines are like old delapidated houses that still stand but no one with common sense lives in them anymore.
i have. i just don't interpret it the way you do, nor do i consider it to be a) normative or b) the last jewish word on the subject. rambam is not authoritative in every respect, unless you're yemeni.From your reaction to my views I don't believe you have ever read the whole of the "Guide for the Perplexed."
yes, but there are other interpretations of the sources you cite, other bits of the "scriptures" (funny word for someone jewish to use) disagree and, moreover, the normative rabbinic understanding is entirely different. you're being a bit odd about this, i have to say. does the opinion of haza"l not count for anything?Every thing is possible, even the things that one imagines. But I have the Scriptures to support those I adopt.