Shared memories? I have related incidents here at Interfaith which occurred during my college years, and earlier at about age 16 while learning to drive. The college experience was telepathy of a sort, but it was a shared dream, involving someone in the class I was about to attend at 8am that morning. I will find the post if you become interested. Had you been the subject, or I should say either of the subjects,
you would at least be able to accept the relative objectivity of the astral plane as easily as you now accept the physical. More likely the dream involved a mental focus, but nonetheless, it was a case of two individuals returning from the astral with memories INTACT, preserved inviolate, from a literal meeting
within that world just hours before.
In the case of telepathy, I sat beside a friend in total silence in his car, then proceeded to triangulate
the strange & clearly instructional experience we had both been through. We went over the silent
conversation afterward, word for word. It took only moments to realize that neither of us had hallucinated in the least. No one who has had such an experience, in a clear state of mind, sitting next to a good friend who has confirmed such ... could EVER doubt these things again, at least not at the core of his being.
THAT, Thomas, is what is at stake here. That is the issue. THAT is the whole point. You identify with your body, and you have made clear before that you take stock in religious notions which neither St. Paul nor the Christ, nor certainly any of the Eastern Masters has ever indicated
. You act as if it were the physical body
which was the PRIMARY, and somehow everything else related.
In this, you make the error that most of us make. You reify that which is the greatest illusion of all: MAYA.
Your hand TELLS you the table is solid; your eyes tell you
that you and I are TWO MEN, or are distinct.
Again, when you study the Ageless Wisdom and begin with the proper foundation, something like Light on the Path
, you will find that the physical body - in the Perennial Philosophy
- is not a spiritual Principle at all.
Whether you count 3, 4, 5, 7 or some other number of COMPONENTS,
you must get past this confusion over the physical body.
Watch your mind, my friend. It tricks you next as you already cook up
your typical response at this point. You trot out this business about MY THEOLOGY DOES NOT FRAGMENT AND DIVIDE, we are all about WHOLENESS and the mystical TRANSCENDENCE
, yadda yadda yadda.
Thomas, save it. Spare me. Sometimes,
you just need to realize that while there are many things you can share that I may
be interested in, and certainly things that I do not
know or understand as well as you, this is just not one of them.
Either we get to the point where we can at least see eye to eye on this matter, looking *TOWARD the Firmament*
from the physical body & physical plane ... or we are at an impasse. The FOUNDATION of your being, of my being, the Higher Self and Soul
, is what really matters. In that, neither Thomas nor Andrew, nor any other of the billions of Earth's inhabitants, are the REAL person
... and if Thomas wants to know more he is just going to have to get beyond the terrible slight
to his ego and stop taking offense at the realizaton that yes, there are OTHER students of the Wisdom out there who know more than Thomas does, different than Thomas does, or even who know most of the same STUFF
that Thomas does, just nuanced in such a way that Thomas still thinks
two (or more) worlds are at odds.
I will fight as best I can to try and show that the latter is true, and where I find I am over my head (as I am in most any discussion of the history of the Roman Catholic Church and her catechism, and just which Pope said what to whom for what reason, etc.) ... I will wave the proverbial flag. If you occasionally
do so, then be prepared to hear what you may not want to hear.
Not only is Truth stranger than fiction, not only is Horatio's philosophy a little less important than the need of the moment
ofttimes, not only does God work in some mighty wonderful and Mysterious ways ...
... but Thomas, guess what?
CHRIST HIMSELF couldn't convince you right now that He Himself taught Rebirth, or that Origen did, and so on, and so on.
THOMAS DOESN'T EVEN WANT TO HEAR IT, let alone BELIEVE it.
As far as I'm concerned, this makes for the end of the discussion between the two of us on this thread. Is there something I didn't answer? Did I leave something off? Well if so, do by all means ask,
or point out my oversight.
My commitment, first and foremost, is to the TRUTH. I would receive THAT ... and I would let no pet notion
or personal fancy
trump that. When the time comes that I find that I am mistaken, either as to my professed soteriology, cosmology, ethics, metaphysics or a simple code of living,
the best that I can do is to try to CORRECT my belief, then my thoughts, speech & actions (even my means of livelihood if need be) ... in order that I may BRING these all into alignment WITH THE TRUTH.
NASTI PARO DHARMA
My sincere prayer, is that one day, you will realize why this MUST be the case, not simply as an affirmation
, but as the Foundation of God's Cosmos ... inside and out, imminent and transcendent.
God does not make a set of rules, then proceed to break them. God does not make rules
at all. LOVE IS THE LAW
And I have nothing much to say to a man who argues that there is no religion greater than TRUTH.
Perhaps if you keep peeling away the layers of that veil, you will see that Truth is much more than what we make it
, yet if we make of it a dead end and a barred door
... NO WONDER we don't get to the next step.
I was not born with the same knowledge I currently have. Even what I have gained in former lives, one of them just decades ago, DID NOT arrive with my new brain, new body, new set of feelings and new mind in this incarnation. What I have come to `remember'
(quite the subject of another thread) had to be brought through, where specific memories are concerned, and only gradually in terms of aptitudes and various abilities.
Such is always the case; even advanced disicples must retrain the new personality equipment in each new lifetime. Only an arhat of the 4th Initiation, as Jesus of Nazareth and Paul after him, gains an unbroken thread of continuity of consciousness from that experience onward. No more is there sleep, no more a Devachan
between subsequent rebirths.
Instead of flying off the handle (yes, Thomas, you basically do this too in your own special way) when I mention Prinicples of Consciousness,
why not try exploring that topic. St. Paul spoke of the flesh vs. the spirit;
will you blast him, now, as a dualist? Of course you will. Anything that doesn't fit the cookie-cutter cutout, eh?
St. Paul taught that we inhabit `SPIRITUAL bodies'
after we die. Hmmmm.
St. Peter is said to have healed with his shadow,
when this passed over someone.
Every occultist knows what the shadow
refers to. Will you tell us now that it was important to stand away from the sun
if the Apostle was passing nearby, lest one miss the beneficial darkess of Peter's healing ability?
The Soul is stationary, relative to the personality satellite
that orbits it, periodically. As above, so below. As ALL ELSE in nature, so the human anatomy, psychology, spirituality. Earth orbits the Sun; so too does the SOUL orbit theMonad, the Father in Heaven
. And as momentary Sparks
within the ONE FLAME, we each arise and fall in the twinkling of an eye
... never ceasing, for we have been given Life, and Life - LIFE
- is the one thing which does not fade away.
In science, this is Energy ... OR matter. N'est pas?
Let's see, Spirit is matter on a higher rung of the spiral, just as matter is Spirit at the densest point of incarnation
. ONE thing, not two. The interaction between these two, like the poles of a magnet
, creates the MAGNETIC FIELD that we call Consciousness itself. Remove those poles, remove that magnet, and where is Consciousness?
Whatever your thoughts, whatever your answer, does Life then too, go away?
"Esoteric philosophy teaches that everything lives and is conscious, but not that all life and consciousness are similar to those of human or even animal beings. Life we look upon as “the one form of existence,” manifesting in what is called matter; or, as in man, what, incorrectly separating them, we name Spirit, Soul and Matter. Matter is the vehicle for the manifestation of soul on this plane of existence, and soul is the vehicle on a higher plane for the manifestation of spirit, and these three are a trinity synthesized by Life, which pervades them all." [The Secret Doctrine, Vol I, p.48]Why is it incorrect, as HPB notes, to separate these three Principles or Aspects in man? Because matter, in simple terms, is the personality ... and we KNOW that this isn't the spiritual man on his own plane. The Soul may seem to be the true Individual, yet it turns out to be the vehicle of the Monad, just as the personality is the vehicle of the Soul. So we cannot properly understand MAN unless we have some conception of all three of these levels of activity and Being.
You find inspiration and guidance in the places that work for you; I find the same in the places that work for me. I would not expect you to set aside your Bible, Apocrypha, Papal pronouncements and Aquinas, simply because the answers to most of the questions you put to me are long since addressed from HPB's day onward (or far, far earlier if you look into the Vedas, the Wisdom of ancient Greece, Rome and Egypt, or the practices of the Hebrews, Chaldeans, Sumerians & so on).
How foolish it would be, then, for you to expect me to pretend that I do not remember what I remember, that I have not spoken with inspired disicples and Initiates directly and served alongside them for many years
, and so on. Thomas, you seem to have made the mistake, many years ago in my case - perhaps longer ago in other cases - of projecting your own uncertainties, your own misconceptions and faulty foundations, upon those you discourse with.
One day you will wake up and realize that consultation with Thomas before we have spiritual and religious, mystical or occult
experiences ... is not a requirement. No one need clear it with you first, or with the Catholic fathers,
making sure it does not contradict what you seem so certain
Christ was going around teaching.
Frankly, I'm rather relieved that most folks take your deliverances with the same hefty chunk of salt that they take mine. I'm anything but concise, and I am often heavy handed, trying to show 2 or 5 or 10 different approaches to the same Truth, the same Teaching, the same core ideas.
You would somehow expect me to believe that the spokes do not lead to the center when looking at the wagon wheel.
Meanwhile, at least on certain occasion
I - like Christ - stand AT THAT HUB
... and, again like Christ,
I think, "Let me draw ALL SOULS unto <LOVE>."
Where the Christ can speak, "Love"
and exchange these equally, I aspire to the day when I can do the same. If I turn to you and you cannot conceive that it will ever
be so, then GUESS who's one more day ... to do the things he should have done!
LIFTING CHRIST UP
does not necessary mean we must be Catholic, or even Christian. When more of our world population understands that, believes in this and LIVES it ... whether they ever
hear of Christ Jesus of not, we shall then have the Sustainable Society that everyone is after. We won't need to wonder
any longer if we are gods, or what this means
, for the living proof, the testimony
to that ... will be far too obvious to deny.
Until then, Thomas, you must either take MY testimony
and affadavit, when it comes to such, that I have had such & such experiences
, or encounters, etc. - or set my testimony aside. And you should realize that I would never give an affadavit to a person like you, precisely because anything I could thus offer has already been deemed worthless along relevant lines BY THE RECEIVER
. I will testify, till my dying day and with my last dying breath, to what I KNOW.
You cannot diminish that, Thomas.
You CAN, however, add to it, just as when I add to YOUR
legitimate, sincere spiritual experiences (and there are many ways to go about this), I also gain something.
Building up, not tearing down. Affirming, or remaining silent, not doing one's best to bring disgrace upon another, discredit that person or make of their testimony any less than what it is.
When I tell you about the FSM in my garage, and assure you that all human beings will grow four new appendages next Tuesday, THEN believe that I am mistaken, or have a screw loose.
When I tell you that I remember past lives, you say far more about *yourself* than you do about me when you call me liar ... or patronize me, telling me my memories are flawed.
Politely put, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Like the man said ... just because you don't believe in something, sure as hell doesn't mean that it ain't true.
One day, Thomas, one day. Your dying day?
Mayhaps, I don't know. I have no direct knowledge or insight into your karma, and I have no real grasp of why you resist so strongly what is right in front of you. I prefer to simply believe that your path is that of Catholicism ... and that for obvious enough reasons
, Reincarnation does not appeal. I tell you one last time:
when you assert that Christ never taught this, you seal a door tightly - and I WILL NOT OPEN IT
Not Christ, not God, not His Holiness in Rome, nor anyone else in Cosmos ... except dear Thomas.
You may be surprised who and what waits on the other side!