Oldest fragments of the Ancient Wisdom?

Hermes

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Any ideas....?
Many people say it is in Egypt, or India or somewhere else. I think both Egypt and India goes quite far back. Buddhism and Tibet came from Nepal (back then India and the Bon Shamanistic tradition).
Any learned men (or women) here to chime in? Chaldea (now Iraq) is a candidate but most historians say Egypt is the cradle of civilization - what do you say?
P.S. for the sake of argument let's not bring up Atlantis etc. - albeit I might take your word for it, but there is hardly any historical evidence to support this chain of argument.....
 

taijasi

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Records show big floods about 800K years ago, 200K years ago, 75K years ago ... then the ice age of most recent history, some 12,000+ years ago. The date given for the last remnant of Atlantis sinking was 9564BC ... and this can be called Poseidonis, well-known of ancient Greek legend.

The Giza Pyramids were built by around 200,000 years ago, and the Sphinx a good bit earlier in the corresponding Age of Leo. I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a definite *end* of the Atlantean period and a clear rise of the modern Era ... especially if you ask `according to what standards, what means of measure?'

The fact that we had the capacity [or someone did] to get those Pyramids there, let alone the other technologies involved, points to an Egypt that was in its Golden period many tens of thousands of years ago ... and the fact that these were Mystery Temples [for Initiation] 200kya reinforces the idea that our Blue Lodge on Sirius is the origin for the Brotherhood on this planet.

If we want to see something physical, it's going to be difficult to insist on much ... since the physical world is the densest of those we experience, and marks the point of lowest incarnation - for Deity and for man. A man can hold the Secret Doctrine, or a copy of the Bhagavad Gita; aren't these old fragments of the Ancient Wisdom? How about the Vedas?

Light on the Path, by Mabel Collins, is a good account by one of the Masters, based on an ancient incarnation ... in which he came to the Ideal of the Path. Another work by the same Master is Idyll of the White Lotus.

You might also study the Stanzas of Dzyan, and the story of their modern rediscovery. Are you familiar with these? They are the basis for, being the slokas found translated in The Secret Doctrine, by H.P. Blavatsky, given by her Teachers.

Or there is the Emerald Tablet of Hermes ...
 

Hermes

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Ok, let me rephrase the question; Who preceded who - the Egyptians or India? I get a lot of static when I bring up Pythagoras as the PC, anti-western civilization crowd loves to throw it in my face that he "borrowed" his knowledge from Egypt or India, well I am not interested in where he got it but rather who had it "first" (not counting those before the deluge...)
 

taijasi

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I think the answer is India, in both cases ... but again the question is, which deluge?

2560BC? I think not.
 

radarmark

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Any ideas....?
Many people say it is in Egypt, or India or somewhere else. I think both Egypt and India goes quite far back. Buddhism and Tibet came from Nepal (back then India and the Bon Shamanistic tradition).
Any learned men (or women) here to chime in? Chaldea (now Iraq) is a candidate but most historians say Egypt is the cradle of civilization - what do you say?
P.S. for the sake of argument let's not bring up Atlantis etc. - albeit I might take your word for it, but there is hardly any historical evidence to support this chain of argument.....


The "usual candidates" in the west ranging from some Chalcolithic peoples in what is now the Mediterranean and Black Sea basins (before they were seas) to the Mehrgarh pre-Indus peoples. Since the Iranian Plateau (call it Elam) is about half-way in between and Egypt and Sumer are “slightly too young”, I think that is a safe bet if by "civilization" you mean having metal and writing, it is the Iranian Plateau Proto-Aryans. However, the Han Chinese and Meso-American civilizations (especially the latter) would have to be considered as co-candidates. I just cannot believe metalwork and writing (both of which were probably property of the royal or priestly casts) would propagate to the Yellow River and the Andes within the span of one millennia (plus or minus 500 years). The Yellow River civilization probably took root from an earlier people in the (what is now) Mongolian Desert who also began the Uyghur Desert civilization. The Caral Supe civilization probably gave rise to both the Andean and Norte Chico cultures.

Please note all “hot-spots” (Mediterranean Basin, Iranian Plateau, Mongolian Desert, Chilean Coast) either are poorly researched or adjacent to now-submerged areas.

If you are talking about cities as indicators of civilization, the discovered Chalcolithic, Mehrgarh, Yellow River, and Norte Chico regions are simultaneous (within 400 years or so).

If you want to go back further, let's look at the "people of the sea" legends from Iberia to Taiwan. They terrorize the people of early coastal Mediterranean, India, and Far Eastern areas. The Chalcolithic peoples of the Mediterranean-Black Sea Basin are not likely candidates because some natural catastrophe flooded the basin or basins. Nor are the Mehrgarh peoples likely candidates, unless there is some undiscovered pre-Vedic seaport in the Gulf of India. The earliest boat people were the Aborigines and it is possible that Mundas of Southern India and Ainu and Basques are remnants of their wanderings (though not likely). If none of those three peoples work, we have R Buckminster Fuller’s Annamites of South East Asia. They might have been the core of the boat-peoples.

So does “civilized” mean metal-using, written language using, town-dwelling, or world-conquering? They each give a different answer.
 

Nick the Pilot

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Hermes,

According to my belief system, our world is presently populated by a highly advanced "worldwide culture," this is the fifth time this has happened, Atlantis was the fourth such advanced worldwide culture to appear, and there were three others which appeared and disappeared even before Atlantis appeared. (Feel free to ask about some archaelogical sites that are submerged under the oceans which seem to support such an idea.)

Again, according to my belief system, each of these highly advanced worldwide cultures had fragments of the ancient wisdom, but it is probably impossible for us today to track down such physical examples. Furthermore, and again, according to my belief system, the Old Testamant was not given directly to the Jews but was given to the first worldwide culture, was then handed down to each subsequent worldwide culture, and the Jews were merely the most recent people to receive it (but this idea should be addressed in a separate thread, instead of derailing this thread).
 

Hermes

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Thanks for ALL the nice answers. I also tend to believe in the cyclical nature of civilizations and Atlantis also in the idea of our mind is the storehouse of the Ancient Wisdom - however, I was talking about lesser esoteric ideas such as ages of known knowledge (written) between Egypt and India or perhaps other parts. It is no use of speculating about the mesoamerica and their age or knowledge when they unfortunately left no written records. Pythagoras and Apollonius were both recorded travelers of the East and they have been taught while journeying. Also the native Hawaiians and Australians had knowledge and aspects in their customs of the Old Ways, but they were not into writing down records either. :(
I'll second that ;)
 

seattlegal

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Thanks for ALL the nice answers. I also tend to believe in the cyclical nature of civilizations and Atlantis also in the idea of our mind is the storehouse of the Ancient Wisdom - however, I was talking about lesser esoteric ideas such as ages of known knowledge (written) between Egypt and India or perhaps other parts. It is no use of speculating about the mesoamerica and their age or knowledge when they unfortunately left no written records.
What are you talking about? The Mayan/Olmec are one of only a handful of civilizations that independently developed writing proper...too bad so many of their transcripts went the way of the book burners...
Pythagoras and Apollonius were both recorded travelers of the East and they have been taught while journeying. Also the native Hawaiians and Australians had knowledge and aspects in their customs of the Old Ways, but they were not into writing down records either. :(
Have you checked out the pictogram (non-alphabetic) writing of Easter Island?
 

Etu Malku

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Thanks for ALL the nice answers. I also tend to believe in the cyclical nature of civilizations and Atlantis also in the idea of our mind is the storehouse of the Ancient Wisdom - however, I was talking about lesser esoteric ideas such as ages of known knowledge (written) between Egypt and India or perhaps other parts. It is no use of speculating about the mesoamerica and their age or knowledge when they unfortunately left no written records. Pythagoras and Apollonius were both recorded travelers of the East and they have been taught while journeying. Also the native Hawaiians and Australians had knowledge and aspects in their customs of the Old Ways, but they were not into writing down records either. :(
In that case you need not look any further than Mesopotamia, Sumer to be exact, where the oldest known writings come from.

The debate between the Indus Valley (India) and Egypt having the oldest records is still going on, I put my money on Egypt since it was inhabited from Mankind's origin which is Central Africa, from there Mankind moved north and east/west.
 

Hermes

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Ok. I was wrong - I was thinking of the pre-christian Hawaii where there are no written records, the Maya had their writing.
What are you talking about? The Mayan/Olmec are one of only a handful of civilizations that independently developed writing proper...too bad so many of their transcripts went the way of the book burners...
Have you checked out the pictogram (non-alphabetic) writing of Easter Island?
 

taijasi

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Please note that the Egyptian Denderah Zodiac is a `written' cycle, as can be researched by the serious student ... going back, or recording THREE cycles of the 25,000 year precessional zodiac. The idea that the great Sphinx (and pyramids) were built more recent than this is preposterous ... although at least we now have the archaeological EVIDENCE - via flood (water erosion damage from ~12,500 years ago) - to show a much older build date than Egyptologists still foolishly claim.

It's nothing short of insisting on a flat earth or a geocentric cosmos, at this point.

To have three cycles recorded for us demonstrates record-keeping to nearly 100,000 years ... although other civilizations have watched the heavens for much, much longer ~ and have also recorded astronomical and astrological cycles (going back several 100,000 years). I take all of this as written evidence, though not necessarily showing any kind of communication from the gods.

When we trace the origins of physical humanity back as far as occult insight currently allows, we can come up with a precise YEAR for the proper horoscope of Humanity ... showing when this Kingdom first came into physical incarnation (or was born) upon this planet. Nick and I know that this number is somewhere around 18 million years ago, even though this was the 3rd Root Race ... and well into it.

This means that the first 2 1/2 Epochs of Humanity, going back several tens of millions of years, did not involve physical incarnation ... or Mind, at all (in the individualized sense), so that Seattlegal is right on. Once the `Spark of Mind' was stimulated, however, it certainly took several million years for this to mature in any sense, so we are still a relative newcomer to evolution upon this planet ... when you consider Mind as part of the equation. It is, after all, how we get our name, and it's what defines us as a Kingdom, or distinguishes us (in those rare and ideal situations where it is actually used).

This confines our scope to a few million years, but trying to lop off Atlantis arbitrarily will never help you with your understanding. The current and 5th Root Race can be traced back nearly a million years, definitely OVERLAPPING with Atlantean civilzation by hundreds of thousands of years. LONG, long before the final flood catastrophe that wiped out the last island remnant of Atlantis in 9564BC ... and even before the prior two events (in ~75,000BC and ~200,000BC) there was Egyptian civilization, at its HIGH points. ALL that we know of Egypt today is but a pale, poorly understood reflection of what once WAS.

If you understand Root Races, you know that the first ARYAN or 5th Race bodies were the Indian, or Hindu. The following excerpt, on Wikipedia, is from The Solar System, by Col. A.E. Powell, itself a compilation of various Theosophical writings. Naturally, you will need to check them all with your own clairvoyance ... ;)
Blavatsky asserted humanity was presently in the fifth root race, the Aryan race, which Theosophists believe to have emerged from the previous fourth root race (Atlantean root race) beginning about 100,000 years ago in Atlantis. (When Madame Blavatsky stated the Aryan root race was 1,000,000 years old, she meant that the souls of the people that later physically incarnated as the first Aryans about 100,000 years ago began to incarnate in the bodies of Atlanteans 1,000,000 years ago.) Theosophists believe the Aryan root race was physically progenerated by the Vaivasvatu Manu, one of the Masters of the Ancient Wisdom.The small band of only 9,000 people constituting the then small Aryan root race migrated out of Atlantis in 79,797 BC. A small group of these Aryan migrants from Atlantis split from the main body of migrants and went south to the shore of an inland sea in what was then a verdant and lush Sahara where they founded the "City of the Sun".
 

Etu Malku

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Please note that the Egyptian Denderah Zodiac is a `written' cycle, as can be researched by the serious student ...
You are really losing me here . . . The Dendera zodiac (or Denderah zodiac) is a widely known Egyptian bas-relief from the ceiling of the pronaos (or portico) of a chapel dedicated to Osiris. This chapel was begun in the late Ptolemaic period.

Ptolemaic Egypt began when Ptolemy I Soter invaded Egypt and declared himself Pharaoh of Egypt in 305 BC and ended with the death of queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and the Roman conquest in 30 BC.

The idea that the great Sphinx (and pyramids) were built more recent than this is preposterous ... although at least we now have the archaeological EVIDENCE - via flood (water erosion damage from ~12,500 years ago) - to show a much older build date than Egyptologists still foolishly claim.
This is still a debate among Egyptologists and scientists. I wouldn't jump to this conclusion without further evidences. But, I admit I like the premise!

When we trace the origins of physical humanity back as far as occult insight currently allows, we can come up with a precise YEAR for the proper horoscope of Humanity ... showing when this Kingdom first came into physical incarnation (or was born) upon this planet. Nick and I know that this number is somewhere around 18 million years ago, even though this was the 3rd Root Race ... and well into it.

This means that the first 2 1/2 Epochs of Humanity, going back several tens of millions of years, did not involve physical incarnation ... or Mind, at all (in the individualized sense), so that Seattlegal is right on. Once the `Spark of Mind' was stimulated, however, it certainly took several million years for this to mature in any sense, so we are still a relative newcomer to evolution upon this planet ... when you consider Mind as part of the equation. It is, after all, how we get our name, and it's what defines us as a Kingdom, or distinguishes us (in those rare and ideal situations where it is actually used).

This confines our scope to a few million years, but trying to lop off Atlantis arbitrarily will never help you with your understanding. The current and 5th Root Race can be traced back nearly a million years, definitely OVERLAPPING with Atlantean civilzation by hundreds of thousands of years. LONG, long before the final flood catastrophe that wiped out the last island remnant of Atlantis in 9564BC ... and even before the prior two events (in ~75,000BC and ~200,000BC) there was Egyptian civilization, at its HIGH points. ALL that we know of Egypt today is but a pale, poorly understood reflection of what once WAS.

If you understand Root Races, you know that the first ARYAN or 5th Race bodies were the Indian, or Hindu. The following excerpt, on Wikipedia, is from The Solar System, by Col. A.E. Powell, itself a compilation of various Theosophical writings. Naturally, you will need to check them all with your own clairvoyance ... ;)
Blavatsky asserted humanity was presently in the fifth root race, the Aryan race, which Theosophists believe to have emerged from the previous fourth root race (Atlantean root race) beginning about 100,000 years ago in Atlantis. (When Madame Blavatsky stated the Aryan root race was 1,000,000 years old, she meant that the souls of the people that later physically incarnated as the first Aryans about 100,000 years ago began to incarnate in the bodies of Atlanteans 1,000,000 years ago.) Theosophists believe the Aryan root race was physically progenerated by the Vaivasvatu Manu, one of the Masters of the Ancient Wisdom.The small band of only 9,000 people constituting the then small Aryan root race migrated out of Atlantis in 79,797 BC. A small group of these Aryan migrants from Atlantis split from the main body of migrants and went south to the shore of an inland sea in what was then a verdant and lush Sahara where they founded the "City of the Sun".​
Of course after reading all of this gobbledygook I am not surprised by your theories. :D
 

Hermes

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While I am not a theosophist and I do not consider HPB's every single word as a gospel, I would not call it "gobbledygook" either......The problem with every single books that there are some people who take every word of it literally - As with the Bible or the Secret Doctrine you simply must read between the lines and accept that certain assertion can be wrong (either on purpose or by mistake). You cannot ignore these seminal works just because it states incorrect or incomprehensible information. Anyway - just my 2 cents....
You are really losing me here . . . The Dendera zodiac (or Denderah zodiac) is a widely known Egyptian bas-relief from the ceiling of the pronaos (or portico) of a chapel dedicated to Osiris. This chapel was begun in the late Ptolemaic period.

Ptolemaic Egypt began when Ptolemy I Soter invaded Egypt and declared himself Pharaoh of Egypt in 305 BC and ended with the death of queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and the Roman conquest in 30 BC.

This is still a debate among Egyptologists and scientists. I wouldn't jump to this conclusion without further evidences. But, I admit I like the premise!

Of course after reading all of this gobbledygook I am not surprised by your theories. :D
[/INDENT]
 

Nick the Pilot

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Hermes,
 
 
The people who gave us the Secret Doctrine made it very clear that we should not take the Secret Doctrine literally, we must read between the lines, and anyone who fails to read between the lines is coming up with false information (and falling into fundamentalism, and the Secret Doctrine is very much against fundamentalism). And, in my opinion, this is true of every sacred text, fortunately, the Secret Doctrine is up-front and honest about this while other sacred texts are not.
 
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