Etu Malku
Mercuræn
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I've read the Secret Doctrine years ago, as well as many other Theosophical texts, perhaps "gobbledygook" was a bit pretentious. My apologies.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
I think it's the authorship of certain texts we must ever keep in mind, be these the works of H.P. Blavatsky, Alice Bailey, Helena Roerich, Lucille Cedarcrans, Cyril Scott, Geoffrey Hodson, David Anrias [pseudonym of David Ross] and so on. In each of these cases there remains not the faintest shadow of a doubt in my mind as to the influence - or in some cases - near-complete authorship and inspiration ... of various works we might consider.
In HPB's case there are The Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled and The Voice of the Silence ... yet a good number of the articles and other contributions made by her also bear the stamp of the Mahatmas. The latter, in her case are too numerous to list - especially if we consider any one of them by the many appellations and noms de plume which apply (e.g., Hilarion/Illarion, Serapis, Morya/Maurya, etc.).
Alice Bailey wrote for exactly 30 years at the dictation of the Tibetan Master DK, but students of her Teachings also realize that there are other influences present ... as her own Teacher is the Master KH, and also since the impress of the Christ Himself can be found standing behind the entire Teaching Work of the Tibetan as a whole. The Great Invocation, specifically, is provided *through* the Tibetan by the Christ Himself, via Alice Bailey ... to Humanity as a whole, just as was the Christ's earlier rendition of this ancient Atlantean invocation, known to Catholics as the Paternoster, or the `Our Father/Lord's Prayer.'
David Anrias [Brian Ross] also provides direct Teaching from the Christ in the book Through the Eyes of the Masters, samples available online at Amazon.com and at Alpheus.org [where the Message of the World Teacher is reprinted in full, along with a portrait of the Christ and other Great Ones as sketched by Anrias]. It was Lord Agastya [Master Jupiter, the senior-most in the Hierarchy], HPB's `Old Gentleman,' Narayan, who provided most of the material (or Inspiring influence) which David Anrias wrote down ... in those cases where dictation occurred. Anrias tells us something of the technique that was required in the case of learning to produce the pencil sketches of the Great Ones, but I would say his contributions are most meaningful for occult students of astrology.
The implications should be obvious. We have a Master, here, who has been studying the Heavens for longer than most of us in the West even recognize civilization as having existed. In the case of Master Jupiter it is an advanced astrology, probably something that only the senior-most of Initiates can properly grasp [Lord Agastya has other Masters as his students] ... stretching into considerations of Cosmic cycles and influences, and we're very fortunate that someone like Anrias was around to write books like Adepts of the Five Elements and the already mentioned Through the Eyes of the Masters.
It is the contributions through Mabel Collins, coming from Master Hilarion [St. Paul & Iamblichus in earlier incarnations] which might interest someone trying to trace the earliest written fragments of the Ancient Wisdom. The following excerpt is from the Commentary upon Light on the Path, first published in 1885:
Is it likely, after all, that beings who travel from distant sources - be they Interplanetary or Interstellar - in NON-physical craft, would go out of their way or even be able to transport physical, `written' texts along with them, especially when the languages in question would not at all be something that Earth's Humanity can understand?
I think we might need to go one step further, on this or another thread, and ask: What IS the Wisdom? Answering this, we may be in a better position to ask, When first do we find written instances of the same in Earth's history?
And will it be any surprise for some of us if we discover that even in the days of Lost Lemuria (millions of years ago) there are instances? I have just such EVIDENCE in the form of a book entitled The Lemurian Scrolls, and I trust the Arhat-author's clairvoyance as implicitly - or far more so - than I do or would any of you, or ANYONE involved in any exoteric religion today. After all, the one has no special need, no special interest in bending the Truth, even slightly, in order to please or suit the masses ... and such bending, again as some of us know all too well, is what popular, mainstream religion is all about, having been this way as far back as we can imagine.
So what is it we're really after? Evidence that God has always led the Children of the Most High, even as these may walk in some lowly and as-yet-unenlightened form upon this - and similar planets? I think such evidence can be found *ABUNDANTLY*. We just need to be fairly specific about what it is we're searching for ... and then, if we haven't already answered it in the process, we need to ask the question: What EVIDENCE are we [or am I] willing to accept?
Without being clear about such matters, it's no wonder we chase our tails, ourobouros-like, endlessly and needlessly.
Namaskar
In HPB's case there are The Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled and The Voice of the Silence ... yet a good number of the articles and other contributions made by her also bear the stamp of the Mahatmas. The latter, in her case are too numerous to list - especially if we consider any one of them by the many appellations and noms de plume which apply (e.g., Hilarion/Illarion, Serapis, Morya/Maurya, etc.).
Alice Bailey wrote for exactly 30 years at the dictation of the Tibetan Master DK, but students of her Teachings also realize that there are other influences present ... as her own Teacher is the Master KH, and also since the impress of the Christ Himself can be found standing behind the entire Teaching Work of the Tibetan as a whole. The Great Invocation, specifically, is provided *through* the Tibetan by the Christ Himself, via Alice Bailey ... to Humanity as a whole, just as was the Christ's earlier rendition of this ancient Atlantean invocation, known to Catholics as the Paternoster, or the `Our Father/Lord's Prayer.'
David Anrias [Brian Ross] also provides direct Teaching from the Christ in the book Through the Eyes of the Masters, samples available online at Amazon.com and at Alpheus.org [where the Message of the World Teacher is reprinted in full, along with a portrait of the Christ and other Great Ones as sketched by Anrias]. It was Lord Agastya [Master Jupiter, the senior-most in the Hierarchy], HPB's `Old Gentleman,' Narayan, who provided most of the material (or Inspiring influence) which David Anrias wrote down ... in those cases where dictation occurred. Anrias tells us something of the technique that was required in the case of learning to produce the pencil sketches of the Great Ones, but I would say his contributions are most meaningful for occult students of astrology.
The implications should be obvious. We have a Master, here, who has been studying the Heavens for longer than most of us in the West even recognize civilization as having existed. In the case of Master Jupiter it is an advanced astrology, probably something that only the senior-most of Initiates can properly grasp [Lord Agastya has other Masters as his students] ... stretching into considerations of Cosmic cycles and influences, and we're very fortunate that someone like Anrias was around to write books like Adepts of the Five Elements and the already mentioned Through the Eyes of the Masters.
It is the contributions through Mabel Collins, coming from Master Hilarion [St. Paul & Iamblichus in earlier incarnations] which might interest someone trying to trace the earliest written fragments of the Ancient Wisdom. The following excerpt is from the Commentary upon Light on the Path, first published in 1885:
"It is but a small book even now; but the first form in which we see it is smaller yet. It is a palm-leaf manuscript, old beyond computation; so old that even before the time of Christ men had already forgotten its date and the name of its writer, and regarded its origin as lost in the mists of prehistoric antiquity. It consists of ten leaves, and on each leaf are written three lines only, for in a palm-leaf manuscript the lines run along the page, and not across it as with us. Each line is complete in itself—a short aphorism. The language in which these aphorisms are written is an archaic form of Sanskrit.
The Venetian Master [Paolo Veronese in an earlier incarnation, now a senior Master in the Hierarchy as is Master Hilarion] translated them from Sanskrit into Greek for the use of His Alexandrian pupils, of whom the Master Hilarion was one in His incarnation as Iamblichus. Not only did He translate the aphorisms, but He added to them certain explanations which we shall do well to take along with the original."
Finally, I would say that it is far more difficult to dismiss the Masters, and the subject of the origin and Inspiration behind the Teachings given by the same, via Their representatives in the outer world ... than it is even to account for the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Koran, Vedas and Buddhist Sutras. All are inspired by or the Living Embodiment of ~ the Ancient Wisdom. To quibble that such & such a book wasn't printed until a few decades, centuries or millennia ago ... is to ignore the true source of the Wisdom.The Venetian Master [Paolo Veronese in an earlier incarnation, now a senior Master in the Hierarchy as is Master Hilarion] translated them from Sanskrit into Greek for the use of His Alexandrian pupils, of whom the Master Hilarion was one in His incarnation as Iamblichus. Not only did He translate the aphorisms, but He added to them certain explanations which we shall do well to take along with the original."
Is it likely, after all, that beings who travel from distant sources - be they Interplanetary or Interstellar - in NON-physical craft, would go out of their way or even be able to transport physical, `written' texts along with them, especially when the languages in question would not at all be something that Earth's Humanity can understand?
I think we might need to go one step further, on this or another thread, and ask: What IS the Wisdom? Answering this, we may be in a better position to ask, When first do we find written instances of the same in Earth's history?
And will it be any surprise for some of us if we discover that even in the days of Lost Lemuria (millions of years ago) there are instances? I have just such EVIDENCE in the form of a book entitled The Lemurian Scrolls, and I trust the Arhat-author's clairvoyance as implicitly - or far more so - than I do or would any of you, or ANYONE involved in any exoteric religion today. After all, the one has no special need, no special interest in bending the Truth, even slightly, in order to please or suit the masses ... and such bending, again as some of us know all too well, is what popular, mainstream religion is all about, having been this way as far back as we can imagine.
So what is it we're really after? Evidence that God has always led the Children of the Most High, even as these may walk in some lowly and as-yet-unenlightened form upon this - and similar planets? I think such evidence can be found *ABUNDANTLY*. We just need to be fairly specific about what it is we're searching for ... and then, if we haven't already answered it in the process, we need to ask the question: What EVIDENCE are we [or am I] willing to accept?
Without being clear about such matters, it's no wonder we chase our tails, ourobouros-like, endlessly and needlessly.
Namaskar
As mentioned, Sumer and the development of Mesopotamian cultures, as the first recognised "civilisations".
I think arguing about Egypt vs India is a misnomer - both civilisations developed after, but have caught the public imagination a lot more.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
May be true but... it seems that Native American (south and north) had verbal knowledge going back 15-20k years. Academia used to make fun of their "quaint beliefs", which had to be wrong because no one was in the Americas before 5k years. The 20k-15k figure has been pretty much accepted even in the most conservative of academia.
Ditto for the Bushmen and Aboriginals.
Schliemann was laughed at for thinking Troy was real by academia. And of course everyone scoffed at an illiterate singers reciting the Iliad or some of the longer Irish-Welsh epics. Parry and others pretty much rebuked those notions as well.
It is possible (and I would say likely) that a the oldest fragments would be found in the oral traditions, not in the oldest civilizations recognized by Europeans. They still talk about things in their history from 5-20,000 years ago. Heck, we didn't even realize there was really a Troy until about 100 years ago.
See it depends on what you mean by "ancient wisdom". Those Hopi and Mayan stories go back well before the first clay tablets of Sumer. I do not believe that the "oldest fragments of the Ancient Wisdom" necessesarily have to come from Mesopotania (I vote for the Iranian plateau as far as "cradle of civilization goes")
Ditto for the Bushmen and Aboriginals.
Schliemann was laughed at for thinking Troy was real by academia. And of course everyone scoffed at an illiterate singers reciting the Iliad or some of the longer Irish-Welsh epics. Parry and others pretty much rebuked those notions as well.
It is possible (and I would say likely) that a the oldest fragments would be found in the oral traditions, not in the oldest civilizations recognized by Europeans. They still talk about things in their history from 5-20,000 years ago. Heck, we didn't even realize there was really a Troy until about 100 years ago.
See it depends on what you mean by "ancient wisdom". Those Hopi and Mayan stories go back well before the first clay tablets of Sumer. I do not believe that the "oldest fragments of the Ancient Wisdom" necessesarily have to come from Mesopotania (I vote for the Iranian plateau as far as "cradle of civilization goes")
pohaikawahine
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In my view,the ancient wisdom has been carried forward to today woven like a tapestry in chants, legends, rituals, books, thoughts and revelations. The stories of the lost continents of Atlantis, Lemuria are also part of this ancient wisdom. Even the Hawaiian Chant of Creation "Kumulipo" (the deep source) has many layers (veils) of meaning "ho'oopuka'o" conversational, "kaona" hidden meaning, "noa'h'on'o" spiritual level, and perhaps "huna" sacred. It starts:
O ke au i kahuli wela ka honua
At the time of the turning when the earth was heat
O ke au i kahuli lo le ka lani
At the time of the change when the heavens turned inside out
O ke au i kuka'iaka ka la
At the time when the sun was darkened
E ho'omalamalama i ka malama
To cause the moon to shine
O ke au o Makali'i ka po
The time of the rise of the Pleiades .....etc
It takes us from the time of darkness to the time of light (the birth of man). It tells us of the past, the first great wave (the flood) that when the land of "Ta Rua" (aKa Lemuria) sank beneath the oceans. It tells us of an event that took place long ago with the birth of "Pola'a" a supernova that first made its appearance in July of 1054 AD and cast a red light over the night sky. (The Apache Indian also have a prophecy about the red sky. And it tells us that there will be another great wave. The sacred inner meaning of the chant tells us who we really are and where we are going.
But it is not only the Hawaiian Chant that tells us these things, you will find them in many ancient traditions, religions, cultures. It is all connected and we can see the connections when we are ready to open our minds. We may walk different paths, but we all see the same moon when we get to the top of the mountain.
If you think only one tradition or way is the correct way, you are not prepared to reach the top of the mountain with the others. I love the Jewish tradition that talks about the regathering. When we finally move out o the desert and cross over we can only do it one by one, but when we get there we will all have access to the promised land. The islands will rise again, the walls will stand, and we will be whole. The Aboriginals will return to the Dreamtime as will we all.
These are just my thoughts to share with this thread. He Hawai'i Au, pohaikawahine
O ke au i kahuli wela ka honua
At the time of the turning when the earth was heat
O ke au i kahuli lo le ka lani
At the time of the change when the heavens turned inside out
O ke au i kuka'iaka ka la
At the time when the sun was darkened
E ho'omalamalama i ka malama
To cause the moon to shine
O ke au o Makali'i ka po
The time of the rise of the Pleiades .....etc
It takes us from the time of darkness to the time of light (the birth of man). It tells us of the past, the first great wave (the flood) that when the land of "Ta Rua" (aKa Lemuria) sank beneath the oceans. It tells us of an event that took place long ago with the birth of "Pola'a" a supernova that first made its appearance in July of 1054 AD and cast a red light over the night sky. (The Apache Indian also have a prophecy about the red sky. And it tells us that there will be another great wave. The sacred inner meaning of the chant tells us who we really are and where we are going.
But it is not only the Hawaiian Chant that tells us these things, you will find them in many ancient traditions, religions, cultures. It is all connected and we can see the connections when we are ready to open our minds. We may walk different paths, but we all see the same moon when we get to the top of the mountain.
If you think only one tradition or way is the correct way, you are not prepared to reach the top of the mountain with the others. I love the Jewish tradition that talks about the regathering. When we finally move out o the desert and cross over we can only do it one by one, but when we get there we will all have access to the promised land. The islands will rise again, the walls will stand, and we will be whole. The Aboriginals will return to the Dreamtime as will we all.
These are just my thoughts to share with this thread. He Hawai'i Au, pohaikawahine
Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
I like that, Pleidas, Krittikas (Six hideous sisters) in India, who mothered Lord Shiva's son, Kartikeya (named for that reason). The sun rose in the asterism of Pleidas on the day of vernal equinox in around 2,250 BC. For long that was considered to be the coming of spring and beginning of the year. Around 600 BC, long after when it should have been done, the beginning of the year was changed to Ashwini (beta and lambda Arietis), so that by now we are again behind the precession of equinoxes. The sun now rises in the asterism of Pisces on the day of vernal equinox.
However, RigVeda talks extensively about a time when the sun rose in the asterism of Orion (Mrigashiras, antelope's head - 4,500 BC), and hint of a time when the sun rose in the asterism of Castor and Pollux (Punarvasu, the two chariots - 6,000 BC). The hindus and zoroastrians wear the sacred thread in imitation of Orion's belt.
However, RigVeda talks extensively about a time when the sun rose in the asterism of Orion (Mrigashiras, antelope's head - 4,500 BC), and hint of a time when the sun rose in the asterism of Castor and Pollux (Punarvasu, the two chariots - 6,000 BC). The hindus and zoroastrians wear the sacred thread in imitation of Orion's belt.
Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
It was somewhere else, Radarmark. The zoroastrian Avesta talks about a flood by snow. Are they referring to the ice-ages? RigVeda talks about the sun shining for seven and a half month of the year, the God Mother Aditi begetting seven sons and the eighth born unformed. A long dark night which persisted from 2 months to 100 days and never more than that, dawns that persisted for 30 days before the sun appeared, and priests who completed their annual sacrificial rites in 9 months. The Urheimat was somewhere closer to Arctic. But then there was not just one 'cradle of civilization'.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
My bad, good catch, I should have said I vote for the Iranian Plateau as the cradle of "Western Wisdom". I think that both civilization and widsom are parallel developments that occurred many places at many times. However (at least in terms of Native American development, which I extend to other cultures and ethnicities), I believe in truly ancient trade and influenece.
Thanks for catching that!
Thanks for catching that!
Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
That again might not be true. Would you not consider the Greece as the cradle of "Western Wisdom"?
Bhaktajan II
Hare Krishna Yogi
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At this link I posted a Graphix I drew up of the Brahmanda from a bird's-eye-view POV ---like, standing on top of the roof spire atop Brahma-deva's Palace. Like a spoided kid scrawling grafitti on the cofferred ceiling of the the Brahmanda's Dome* staring down and surveying the floor of the Brahmanda at the center of the Garbho Ocean. Note the Chapter & Verse numbers from the Bhagavata-Purana.
[*somewhere below kishirodakasayi Vishnu's abode].
This is the view from above bhu-mandala (actually, this is bhu-mandala, as seen from above). You may chart out your data over this chart.
Are the planets you mention above or below the North Star?
Mind you, Dhruva-Loka [the north star] is only as high as aloka-loka mountains rim edge.
The Hindu Calendar
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
No, I consider the Middle East and India as part of the "west" (based on languages, alphabets, and ethnicity).
Greece was much later than the Indus Civilization or the Early Mesopotaneans.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
It's images like that, and awareness of there being spans of chronology into trillions of years (takes awhile to fill a bucket drop by shining sea) ...
... which make me glad there is an Avatar of Synthesis, as well as various others, bhaktajan. (Not to mention their more humanlike representatives, capable of expressing these Idea to us)
... which make me glad there is an Avatar of Synthesis, as well as various others, bhaktajan. (Not to mention their more humanlike representatives, capable of expressing these Idea to us)
Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
From your link: "The year – starting with Makara Sankranti, the sun's entrance into Capricorn – is divided into two halves and six seasons."
In the time of Vedas, an year was divided in five seasons: Vasant (Spring), Greeshma (Summer), Varsha (Rains), Hemant (Autumn), and Sharada (Winter). This was followed by a long, cold, dark Arctic night which extended for two months. There was no sixth season. When the Aryans moved South because of the ice-age, a sixth season Shishir (Colder than winter, snow) was added to the calender.
"Pañcapādam pitaram dvādashākritim diva āhuh pare ardhe purīshinam;"
(They call him in the farther half of heaven the Sire five-footed, of twelve forms, * wealthy in watery store.)
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda Book 1: HYMN CLXIV. Viśvedevas., Verse 12
* Wealthy in watery Store: The Aryans meant 'life' when they said 'water' (apah, that was one of their Gods), because water gave life to vegetation and grass for their live-stock. During the Arctic night, all things were frozen. Aryans longed for the sun and water (through their sacred celestial river, Sarasvati) to appear again so that their live-stock could graze and they could lead normal life.
Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
I do not know if Indus Valley civilization can be termed as Indo-European, perhaps it was indigenous Indian, but Mesopotamia certainly was not Indo-European.
The approximate present-day distribution of the Indo-European branches within their homelands of Europe and Asia (Wikipedia):
