imranshaykh said:
My friend,
Again, you fail to reply who was the Mohammed Al Hujjat Al Aqem Ibnil Hasan who the Bab speaks about with such reverence.
The traditions I bring are not from Muslim clergy, they are from Holy Prophet and the honoured Imams - there is a difference. A BIG difference. Not accepting their traditions is equivalent to falsifying them.
I have answered this question about Prophet of Islam and the proof earlier. The Quran is the proof of Mohammed. However it is the final and everlasting proof - not the only proof of Mohammed's claims.
Exactly and the proof of Baha`u'llah and the Bab is Their words.
imranshaykh said:
There are more than 1,000 miracles which are meticulously recorded in history ascribed to Mohammed - some of which are recorded in the Quran. There are miracles ascribed to Jesus, to Noah, to Moses....to ALL prophets, apart from the scriptures they brought. These are recorded not just in their own books but also in the books that followed them. Hence the miracles are beyond doubt. And that is testimony to the truth of Mohammed.
From the Bab's words:
'Likewise the people of the Qur'án disdainfully observe, 'We are unable to comprehend the eloquence of the verses in the Bayan, how can we regard it as a testimony?' Whoever uttereth such words, say unto him, 'O thou untutored one! By what proof hast thou embraced the Religion of Islam? Is it the Prophet on whom thou hast never set eyes? Is it the miracles which thou hast never witnessed? If thou hast accepted Islam unwittingly, wherefore hast thou done so? But if thou hast embraced the Faith by recognizing the Qur'án as the testimony, because thou hast heard the learned and the faithful express their powerlessness before it, or if thou hast, upon hearing the divine verses and by virtue of thy spontaneous love for the True Word of God, responded in a spirit of utter humility and lowliness -- a spirit which is one of the mightiest signs of true love and understanding -- then such proofs have been and will ever be regarded as sound.' "121 "
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 120)
imranshaykh said:
Here is where I will divert from my original question about Mohammed Hujjat Ibnil Hasan, though it is only to strengthen my argument that the Bab never had any miracle.
Bearing in mind that miracles prove nothing to those who do not witness them, I would offer off the top of my head three miracles of the Bab.
The miracle witnessed to by His guard while imprisoned in Esfahan:
A cholera outbreak was swift and widespread and many were taken ill and died quickly. The head of the Bab's guard had a son who was severely ill, he begged the Bab to cure his son. The Bab washed His face in a basin and gave the water to the guard telling him to give it to his son to drink. He did and the son recovered. This is enumerated in "Dawnbreakers"
The miracle witnessed to by the Warden of the prison of Mahku:
The warden had given strict orders that the bab was not to be released from His cell, nor was He to have any visitors. The next morning the warde rode his horse to the prison and was surprised to find the Bab kneeling by the stream, obviously engrossed in morning prayers. The warden severely reprimanded his guards who were shocked at the accusation. They took the warden to the Bab's cell and when the door was opened the Bab was inside finishing His prayers.
The miracle witnessed by many at the execution of the Bab:
Where He was ordered to leave His cell before He was finished dictating a letter to His secretary. The Bab said that no man or any purpose could bring harm to Him before He was finished with His task. He was taken outside suspended on a rope and when the hundreds of muskets fired and the smoke cleared He was nowhere to be seen. A musket ball had cut the rope and dropped Him to His feet. After nearly an hour of frantic search while the crowd was nearly hysterical, the Bab was found in His cell finishing His dictation to His secretary. He rose and said the guards could go on with their purpose as He had finished His task. The next volley (the first battalion that had fired refused to fire a second time) killed the Bab and the follower roped to Him for the firing squad. There is European, non-Muslim and non-Baha`i testimony to these events. It is enumerated in Dawnbreakers.
Again please note that miracles mean nothing to those who do not witness them. And neither you nor I have ever witnessed a miracle of Muhammed.
Also what is or is not a miracle to one man is meaningless to another.
imranshaykh said:
Read the incident about the questioning of the Bab at Tabriz. He was asked to produce a miracle like Moses. He declines. Why? He should have brought a small miracle, something that would have out of the purview of any mortal. But he did'nt.
I would point out an incident from the life of Baha`u'llah:
"Even the Persian 'ulama who were at Karbila and Najaf chose a wise man whom they sent on a mission to Him; his name was Mulla Hasan 'Amu. He came into the Holy Presence, and proposed a number of questions on behalf of the 'ulama, to which Bahá'u'lláh replied. Then Hasan 'Amu said, "The 'ulama recognize without hesitation and confess the knowledge and virtue of Bahá'u'lláh, and they are unanimously convinced that in all learning he has no peer or equal; and it is also evident that he has never studied or acquired this learning; but still the 'ulama say, 'We are not contented with this; we do not acknowledge the reality of his mission by virtue of his wisdom and righteousness. Therefore, we ask him to show us a miracle in order to satisfy and tranquilize our hearts.'"
Bahá'u'lláh replied, "Although you have no right to ask this, for God should test His creatures, and they should not test God, still I allow and accept this request. But the Cause of God is not a theatrical display that is presented every hour, of which some new diversion may be asked for every day. If it were thus, the Cause of God would become mere child's play.
"The ulamas must, therefore, assemble, and, with one accord, choose one miracle, and write that, after the performance of this miracle they will no longer entertain doubts about Me, and that all will acknowledge and confess the truth of My Cause. Let them seal this paper, and bring it to Me. This must be the accepted criterion: if the miracle is performed, no doubt will remain for them; and if not, We shall be convicted of imposture." The learned man, Hasan 'Amu, rose and replied, "There is no more to be said"; he then kissed the knee of the Blessed One although he was not a believer, and went. He gathered the 'ulama and gave them the sacred message. They consulted together and said, "This man is an enchanter; perhaps he will perform an enchantment, and then we shall have nothing more to say." Acting on this belief, they did not dare to push the matter further.[1]
[1 The penetrating judgment of Bahá'u'lláh upon this occasion overcame the malignity of His enemies, who, it was certain, would never agree in choosing what miracle to ask for.]
This man, Hasan 'Amu, mentioned this fact at many meetings. After leaving Karbila he went to Kirmanshah and Tihran and spread a detailed account of it everywhere, laying emphasis on the fear and the withdrawal of the 'ulama.
Briefly, all His adversaries in the Orient acknowledged His greatness, grandeur, knowledge and virtue; and though they were His enemies, they always spoke of Him as "the renowned Bahá'u'lláh.""
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 29)
imranshaykh said:
Regarding the Day of Judgement, you have conveniently ommitted those verses which describe the punishments on the Day of Judgement and the rewards thereof. You have chosen only to take the literal meaning of the verse which suit your purpose. Do you have any comment on those verses? Is there any Bahai allusion to the Fire of Hell or the Houries of Paradise in this world?
One of my favorite texts bythe Bab, I went and cut and pasted it though I can do it by memory. I want it to be absolutely accurate:
"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)
And from Baha`u'llah:
"Thou canst indeed hear the learned and the foolish amongst the people voice the same objections in this day, saying: "The sun hath not risen from the West, nor hath the Crier cried out betwixt earth and heaven. Water hath not inundated certain lands; the Dajjal 17 hath not appeared; Sufyani 18 hath not arisen; nor hath the Temple been witnessed in the sun." I heard, with Mine own ears, one of their divines proclaim: "Should all these signs come to pass and the long-awaited Qá'im appear, and should He ordain, with respect to even our secondary laws, aught beyond that which hath been revealed in the Qur'án, we would assuredly charge Him with imposture, put Him to death, and refuse forever to acknowledge Him", and other statements such as these deniers make. And all this, when the Day of Resurrection hath been ushered in, and the Trumpet hath been sounded, and all the denizens of earth and heaven have been gathered together, and the Balance hath 20 been appointed, and the Bridge hath been laid, and the Verses have been sent down, and the Sun hath shone forth, and the stars have been blotted out, and the souls have been raised to life, and the breath of the Spirit hath blown, and the angels have been arrayed in ranks, and Paradise hath been brought nigh, and Hell made to blaze! These things have all come to pass, and yet to this day not a single one of these people hath recognized them! They all lie as dead within their own shrouds, save those who have believed and repaired unto God, who rejoice in this day in His celestial paradise, and who tread the path of His good-pleasure."
(Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 19)
imranshaykh said:
We are both men trying to be submissive before God, perhaps we should embrace that and not embrace our differences in choices.
And my regards to you,
Scott
